JSB 13.4 Versus 10....
 

JSB 13.4 Versus 10.34 for Field Target  

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Dennisu
(@dennisu)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 6
2019-05-23 09:17:36  

Shooters, I'm relatively new to Field Target and need some assistance on which pellet to shoot for Field Target matches. I will be shooting in the open class.  I'm currently shooting a RAW TM1000 that shoots the 13.4's at 809 fps and the 10.34's at 920 fps.  The 13.4's group slightly better at both 28 and 55 yards and seem a bit better in windy conditions.  The 13.4's also need significantly more clicks at longer ranges making ranging more critical.  I have reviewed a number of matches and it would seem that most in the open class competitors are shooting the 10.34's with some shooting the 13.4's.  What pellet would you recommend and why? 

 


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gingerspop
(@gingerspop)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 44
2019-05-23 09:35:53  

Folowing


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Tom Holland
(@xbowairsniper1200)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 36
2019-05-23 11:01:33  

Dennisu,

I would go with whatever pellet retains the most energy at 55 yds, given the power level.  At the end of the day, you want a pellet that groups well at distance, and drifts the least in the wind.  I shoot WFTF PCP, in which I am limited to 12 ft. Lbs.  I have ordered a mess of pellets on the heavy side, to investigate just this.  I'm going to start with some of the heavier pellets, (15 grains, or so) and test lighter ones as I go.  The average pellet used for my class is around 8.4 grains.  That pellet JUST about gets to 6 ft lbs at 55.  The heavier pellets are doing over 8 ft lbs+, at that same 55 yd distance.  If I'm going to get a split, I'd rather have 8 ft. Lbs than 6 at 55yds.  The wind bucking properties are much better as well.  Range finding is more critical, but if I had a ranging problem, I would get the best ranging scope that I could afford.  No use using an awesome pellet gun combination if you cannot range properly.

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 

My Youtube Channel


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thomasair
(@thomasair)
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Posts: 15
2019-05-23 12:15:51  

Be aware that it doesn’t matter how many clicks you have at 55y when comparing one pellet to another.  What matters is how many clicks difference there is between the two at the maximum amount you might misrange.  In the open class, you should be able to range any target within 3 yards...at the worst.  Observe how many clicks there are from 52-55 with each pellet, and you will likely see maybe 1 click difference between the 13.4 and the 10.3.  That’s about 1/16th of an inch.  That’s insignificant to me....so the reality is that the monsters do not require you to be more precise when ranging.

The monsters are better in the wind.  That’s the bottom line for me.  FT matches are won and lost in the wind.

Mike 


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JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 39
2019-05-23 13:17:13  

I've shot 177 10.34 & 13.4's and 22 13.4's for field target for over six years.

From what I can tell the 13.4's in 177 are sensitive to lifting/dropping in zero degree winds (head/tail winds).  I shot the same target in the same wind with a wftf rifle using 8.4's and there was no vertical change at all (or if there was it was too small to notice), both rifles were about the same (Thomas, w/poly barrels).  I was getting as much vertical change as horizontal change with the 177 monsters.  55 yard target slightly downhill with a head/cross wind.  Shooting 13.4's in 22 I never experienced as much lift/drop in the same conditions.  I think the long cylindrical shape of the pellet is causing this...

Of all the various 20ft-lbs pellets (excepting .20cal) 22 had the most intuitive (easy to read) wind performance.  The hold off for the monsters is second but the vertical drift factor throws a wrench into its ease of use feel.  So right now 10.34's and 13.4's in 177 are tied for me.

I would say the heavier the pellet the lower the scope rail should be.  The ultra low rail on my Thomas seems like it allows for the heavy pellets (reduces clicks) where the taller rails (USFT) you wind up with a lot of clicks and 10 & 55 yards.  But that is 100% speculation.

 

One thing I will say for the Monsters is that from tin to tin I see zero deviation of poi.  Maybe that's the barrel, but with 10.34's I see drastic differences between tins of pellets even if all purchased at the same time.  That is far more important to me than having to learn a slightly more complex drift patterns...


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Will Piatt
(@will-piatt)
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Posts: 50
2019-05-23 15:23:36  

Easy decision! The pellet that your gun groups the best. Nobody on the internet can tell you which pellet is best, only your gun can tell you. What you will notice in the above replies is that folks are testing for themselves.


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Dennisu
(@dennisu)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 6
2019-05-23 15:32:45  

Tom,

Using Strelok Pro the both the 13.4's and the 10.34's retain 12 foot pounds at 55 yards.  So that criteria seems to be a wash in my case. Thanks for the reply!


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Dennisu
(@dennisu)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 6
2019-05-23 15:54:50  

Mike,

Using data from Strelok Pro for both pellets for the range interval you suggested 52-55 yards; the 13.4's would require 6.8 clicks and the 10.34's would require 4.9 clicks.  Not significant to me either.  Looking at the horizontal correction required at 55 yards for a 5 mph wind at 90 degrees; the correction required for the 13.4's would be 2.3 inches and the 10.34's would be 2.2 inches.  I would have thought that the 13.4's would require less correction than the 10.34's due to their additional weight.  I checked the data with Chairgun and it gives the 2.2 inches for the 13.4's and 2.3 inches for the 10.34's.  Both seem to be about the same with respect to wind based on the programs.  Based on my testing, it seems that the 13.4's do handle the wind a bit better.  Thanks for the comments and helping me work thorough the differences.


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GLPalinkas
(@glpalinkas)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 73
2019-05-23 16:35:31  

Let me jump in Dennis. Bring em both to my house next week when the wind is down (early) and we will check the groupings of both. In my rifle and yours. 

However, like Will stated, I think you already know the answer. Your rifle has been talking to you. I continue to shoot the 10.34's for a reason, except as also stated above by Jim, the quality of the 10.34 varies greatly from tin to tin. I wish I could find a batch that shoots like 2 years ago. I would buy a truck load.


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thomasair
(@thomasair)
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2019-05-23 17:19:06  

I’m not sure what BC values are given in Strelok...but those are likely subjective.  

I have read and heard many reporting BCs way more or less than I have personally calculated for each of the pellets in question. I would not rely on the wind drift or drop values given unless you can verify the BC that was used to calculate it.  

You need to test this stuff yourself.

I have personally never noted the up/down characteristics that Jim referred to with the monsters.  Quite the opposite, actually.

I don’t think there is anyone left in Benchrest that still shoots the 10.34s over the monsters.  The reasoning for doing so in FT has always been the idea that you could range less accurately with the 10.34s...but I don’t think that really holds water. 

I get one click of difference when noting a 3 yard misrange at 55y using monsters vs heavies.

Mike 

 


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JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 39
2019-05-23 18:02:09  

Mike, assuming that the rifle didn't start doing something odd at the end of the day... 😉

I actually noticed it on the very first lane of day two when I just slipped the pellet into the top edge of the kz at 45-50 yards.  I was aiming slightly below the center of a 2" kz and hitting near split high on the paddle.  Conditions: maybe max gusts to 5mph, 45 degree front/cross wind shooting maybe 10 degrees down hill, the shooting platforms were raised up about 2' to the terrain surrounding them (the ultimate wind lift situation if there was one).  I aimed even lower on my second shot and again just got the top of the paddle, the second shot was even higher than the first shot.

Now that I am conscious of this I will be watching for it more in the future and see what pans out (the Nevada match will be another good spot to test this stuff).  I could be totally off base as this last match was the first time I have shot this rig down/uphill in head/tail winds.  In normal head/tail winds (shooting on a flat lane at Morro Bay) I do not see any vertical movement of consequence, which is slightly less vertical movement than the 10.34's.

 

I think (need to check my wind notes) that I am holding off about 1.25 dots less at 50 yards in 5mph winds with the Monsters than with the Heavies.  But I shoot the Monster out of a Thomas with a short LW poly barrel and the Heavies out of a full length HW barrel on a USFT.  So not apples to apples by any means.  I have tested the Heavies out of the Thomas indoors but didn't really take any notes other than they grouped better than I thought they would (but not as good as the Monsters tin to tin).

Worst part is I REALLY liked shooting the WFTF version of the rifle...  Got any extra regulators for sale?! 

 


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 121
2019-05-23 18:58:47  

JimW,

Many of those downhill 50+ yard shots would hit high if you did not adjust for the angle. Some were more than 10 degrees.

The slower 13.4gr are more affected by inclined shots. Even 10 degrees at that distance will hit about 1/4 moa higher. At 20 degrees, it's a full moa.

Which pellet is best will depend on several factors. If you can range well, the more accurate pellets that drift less are the easy choice. But if your ranging is off by 4 or 5 yards, an otherwise perfect 900fps shot will still be inside the KZ on a 50+ yard shot, the 800fps will be a miss.

Each factor will have a standard deviation that takes you from optimal. Even when no single factor is enough to cause a miss, the overlap will get you. Inaccuracy, wind estimate, ranging estimate, and incline estimate, can all cooperate to cause even the steadiest shot to miss.


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JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 39
2019-05-23 19:15:47  

The last lane for me on Sunday was maybe 5-7 degrees.  Never experienced this with the Heavies or even close.  The first Sunday lane was steeper but not over 10 degrees (the two top paddle hits).  Without the wind I was not having the same vertical differences on down or up angled shots at distance.  On the super steep targets without wind I did not have to hold for the angle and was pretty much hitting where I aimed after our conversation Saturday...

I blanked my whole last lane Sunday because of the wind.  When the wind dropped I could hit both targets and did not have to hold for the angle.  Otherwise I would agree with you and just chalk it up to the angle...  The 13.4's in 22 never did this on angled shots.

I will be testing this a bit in Nevada to get to the bottom of it.


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thomasair
(@thomasair)
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2019-05-23 19:33:57  

The other factor that could be at play is that a headwind coming up an incline is going to cause a lift.  That would explain why you did not see the lift on a headwind on the flatter lanes at Morrow Bay.  

Mike 

 


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JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 39
2019-05-23 19:44:12  

Oh that's definitely it!  But it was more than I have ever experienced or expected from such a heavy and skinny pellet...  And the platforms were raised up above the adjacent ground by a few feet putting the muzzle into very clean winds.

At 10 degrees would the incline/decline push the pellet up/down close to 1.5"?  Seems a bit much to me.

I can and will test a few steep angled shots indoors, will report back with findings after this weekend!


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Wayne Burns
(@wayne-burns)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 84
2019-05-23 19:44:22  

JW, I think you might also be experiencing uplift as the wind comes off the flatter pasture and hits the hillside... Especially as the wind gusts higher.  Picture water in a river... if the water flow is gentle, then it just flows around a rock, but if the velocity of the water is greater, it starts bouncing over the rock.  The wind also "back eddies" around large objects.... just like water... just a thought:-)

 

Wayne

Wayne Burns,

Match Director,

Ashland Air Rifle Range


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JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 39
2019-05-23 19:53:51  

Like the target at Nevada when you shoot across the water collector area.  I am very familiar with uplift, just didn't expect so much of it from the Monsters...!

Riz commented that the wind should be easy to determine for those pellets.  Well after shooting his WFTF rig with NO vertical uplift in the same wind on the same target i'm beginning to think that WFTF is a bit easier to figure out than what I was experiencing.  I was nailing the targets, may have missed one out of six or seven where I was missing four out of five with the Monsters, harness/no harness too...real wftf shooting.

Otherwise it must be because I can't shoot very well or something... 😉

 

The move to WFTF temptation is strong, damm you Riz!!!!! 🤣 🤣 🤣 


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Wayne Burns
(@wayne-burns)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 84
2019-05-23 20:04:23  

JW, you'll see a lot less "mussel flip" in 12fpe class too...  I missed more shots by holding too much for wind than I did not enough hold.  Maybe us 12fpe shooters get too use to holding outside the kill zone, for even the slightest wind.

Wayne

Wayne Burns,

Match Director,

Ashland Air Rifle Range


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thomasair
(@thomasair)
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2019-05-23 20:09:34  

There is something odd going on, Jim. There is no comparing 12 to 20fpe.  I cannot think of a single instance where I would choose 12 over 20....and I have logged a lot of time with both your gun and his, as they both used to be my personal gun at one time.  Something is amiss if you feel like his gun was doing better in the wind than yours.  

Not sure what that might be right off.  Maybe you are not cleaning often enough?  Maybe your pellets are not ideal?  Can’t say...but 12 will never outshoot 20 if 20 is working right....never.

Mike


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JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 39
2019-05-23 21:24:16  

It's clean (clean it every 150-200 pellets religiously) and shooting magnificently...!!!  It was grouping little itty bitty groups at 55 with shifting winds from the Open position (better than I did at 46 off the bench indoors).  If I miss it's me it's so accurate and consistent.  Zero flyers and I beat everyone, high score day one (had the most wind), tied for high score day two and took high score overall.  Missed first place/high score at Morro by a single shot (last shot offhand).  This thing is DIALED.  If it can get better I may have to start practicing more or it may just shoot the match itself and take the weak link out of the picture... lol

Not saying 12 outshot 20, they were different and the difference was the lifting of the pellet.  Which calcs out according to Scott.  Due to the lack of lift it was easier to hit those particular targets in those conditions, and it wasn't even my rifle or division so that says something...and I shot it legal WFTF style (no harness).  Things that make you go.....?


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 121
2019-05-23 23:40:22  

JimW,

Maybe something about the conditions was causing you to range long.

It might have been a confluence of more than one thing (incline, range, lift, etc.).


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DonC
 DonC
(@donc)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 85
2019-05-24 08:45:32  
Posted by: thomasair

I’m not sure what BC values are given in Strelok...but those are likely subjective.  

I have read and heard many reporting BCs way more or less than I have personally calculated for each of the pellets in question. I would not rely on the wind drift or drop values given unless you can verify the BC that was used to calculate it.  

You need to test this stuff yourself.

I have personally never noted the up/down characteristics that Jim referred to with the monsters.  Quite the opposite, actually.

I don’t think there is anyone left in Benchrest that still shoots the 10.34s over the monsters.  The reasoning for doing so in FT has always been the idea that you could range less accurately with the 10.34s...but I don’t think that really holds water. 

I get one click of difference when noting a 3 yard misrange at 55y using monsters vs heavies.

Mike 

 

Mike,

Is your scope 1/4 or 1/8 clicks. I check my scopes as per the A-Team website and have found my Nightforce 36X is actually 1/7. My Schmidt and Bender advertised 1/4 is dead on. Both of my Burris 8-32 scopes are advertised 1/8 and are both really 1/7.


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JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
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Posts: 39
2019-05-24 12:16:41  

Scott,

Thinking about it more last night, I am shooting at 800fps (820 is recommended) and was at the end of the cleaning cycle for the barrel.  This of course does not answer the first target shooting high thing (that target was steeper) but I have noticed that when the barrel starts to get dirty it starts shooting  a somewhat larger group (1" at 55 yards).  I might think I had mis-ranged but I confirmed the distances with Riz after we finished the lane (it was our last lane), may have been a half or quarter yard off.  It was consistently high on that target, it just took me a while to realize what it was doing (hitting in the same beat up spot on the face plate).  My brain was not accepting the fact the pellet was being influenced so much in that situation.  It should have been obvious from that first target incident.  Need to listen to what the rifle is telling me a bit more I think...still learning this setup.

Thanks for the informative discussion guys!  Sorry to have somewhat hijacked the thread. 


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Kdog
 Kdog
(@kdog)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 29
2019-05-24 14:30:09  

Does anyone have an idea of what the ballistic coefficient is between the Heavies and Monsters? 


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gingerspop
(@gingerspop)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 44
2019-05-24 15:59:40  

Per Chairgun: 

JSB Exact Heavy 0.177 10.300 0.0210
JSB Monster 0.177 13.430 0.0280


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Dennisu
(@dennisu)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 6
2019-05-24 16:22:02  

Interesting.  My version of chair gun(V4.3.4) has different ballistic coefficients:  .0310 for the 10.30's and .0317 for the 13.43's.  Screenshot below.

 

0.177 JSB Exact Heavy 0.0310 10.30
0.177 JSB Monster 0.0317 13.43

Strelok Pro has .031 for the 10.3's and .028 for the 13.43's. 

Probably best to setup two chronographs and use one of the online calculators to determine your BC.  Airguns of Arizona BC calculator: https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Calcs.html


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gingerspop
(@gingerspop)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 44
2019-05-24 16:28:31  

Mine is version 4.3.8


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Kidpellet
(@kidpellet)
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Posts: 30
2019-05-24 20:15:10  

10.34's and slow it down around 900 fps but don't tell everybody

Ray Barnett


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thomasair
(@thomasair)
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2019-05-25 11:05:54  
Posted by: DonC
Posted by: thomasair

I’m not sure what BC values are given in Strelok...but those are likely subjective.  

I have read and heard many reporting BCs way more or less than I have personally calculated for each of the pellets in question. I would not rely on the wind drift or drop values given unless you can verify the BC that was used to calculate it.  

You need to test this stuff yourself.

I have personally never noted the up/down characteristics that Jim referred to with the monsters.  Quite the opposite, actually.

I don’t think there is anyone left in Benchrest that still shoots the 10.34s over the monsters.  The reasoning for doing so in FT has always been the idea that you could range less accurately with the 10.34s...but I don’t think that really holds water. 

I get one click of difference when noting a 3 yard misrange at 55y using monsters vs heavies.

Mike 

 

Mike,

Is your scope 1/4 or 1/8 clicks. I check my scopes as per the A-Team website and have found my Nightforce 36X is actually 1/7. My Schmidt and Bender advertised 1/4 is dead on. Both of my Burris 8-32 scopes are advertised 1/8 and are both really 1/7.

My scope is a Leupold Comp 40x.  It’s supposed to be 1/8 MOA per click.  I doubt it’s exacty 1/8 MOA.  The values I use for scope height, and BC in ChairGun closely match my measured values using the 2 chrono method (and backed up with a labradar...although it was difficult to get consistent results with it) so the MOA per click can’t be too far off since the generated clicks from ChairGun are right on the money.   I zero at 30, then shoot 55 and 10.  I juggle BC in the app to get the generated clicks at 55 to align with my actual. I juggle scope height to get the generated clicks at 10 to align with my actual.  Everything in between works out nicely after that.

 It’s been years since I have shot Open class with Monsters...but recall the measured and corrected for altitude BC being .035.

Measured and corrected for altitude BC for the heavies was around .030-.031 out of my barrels...if I’m remembering that right.  That was even longer ago.

Mike 


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pirellip
(@pirellip)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 6
2019-05-28 09:25:11  

Another important point that I think is often overlooked when it comes to the number of clicks between 50-55 yards is the distance that you zero your rifle.

Most people zero their rig at the apogee of the pellet's trajectory, so they only have to turn the elevation turret in one direction.  If you're willing to turn in both directions, you can push out your zero distance, which will reduce the number of clicks between 50-55.  It doesn't have to be a lot either, on my 1/8" Leupold Competition (which I measured to actually be 7.357 clicks per MOA), with a 35 yard zero, I go up only 5 clicks. 

 

It's also important to point out that the farther out your zero is, the more clicks you're going to have to make at the closer ranges.  My 10 yard requires 69 clicks (so 9 clicks past 1 full rotation).  Yes, this does introduce the possibility of 'being out a rotation' but a bit of discipline to setup a shooting process that you religiously follow takes care of this.

Also, the higher up you mount your scope, the less clicks you're going to need at the farther ranges (and more at closer ranges).  That's why you see some Europeans shooting their WFTF rigs with their scope setup super high!

I know of WFTF shooters that use heavy pellets because they are the most accurate pellet in the wind.  So use what works for you, but don't constrain yourself to setting your zero at the apogee!


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