How is team USA sel...
 

How is team USA selected for the worlds?  

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Jacob W Sumner
(@jacob-sumner)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 24
2018-11-09 18:42:23  

I am not trying to make the team, as my results are not worthy I feel. (yet)

My questions are, how do we make sure the best of the best is sent each year to represent USA? How are team selections made? 

How are they funded by our membership fees? What fees do they have to pay out of pocket?

In 2021 if we do host the worlds how many shooters are we allowed?  

I bring this up to shine light on a subject that I hear at every large match. But never get an answer to.

It has been said you either have to know someone and / or pay your own way. If this is the case it is wrong. 

I will suggest that starting this year we send only our best shooters. Say we take a look at the GP scores for top 6 or we hold the Nationals before the Worlds. Placing in the top 3 of WFTF classes wins you a spot on the team. 

Sponsors from the industries should be covering fees for top shooters. Not employees, I won't use names but you companies know who you are. 

Nothing personal against anyone but if you are not a top shooter you should not be going to the worlds.


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Kerndtc
(@kerndtc)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 91
2018-11-15 22:19:19  
Posted by: Johninma

I think you need to put away the analysis and work on how to shoot at Worlds, not how to fight it Scott.

Scott just likes to have a full grasp of everything. It's better to know than to not. I certainly didn't know all of the rules while in Poland and luckily with Ray's help I was able to learn some on the fly and it really helped me.


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Ray Apelles
(@ateamray)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 19
2018-11-16 02:58:08  

 Cameron what was the average Target distance for each of the courses in Poland? I believe with the European style courses the average Target distance is more important than the Troyer Factor.


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gonzav
(@gonzav)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 70
2018-11-16 09:53:36  

Ray,

The average distance according to the posted course distances is 40.71 yards with 30% reducers.

I created a spreadsheet with a link below with all of the calculations.

2018 WFTC Poland Course Distances-Troyer-KZs

Regards,

Leo


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 123
2018-11-16 15:00:46  

For anyone interested in analysis, I too did a spreadsheet of Poland courses (AAFTA planner in ODS format). Here is a link:

http://www.scotthull.us/Field%20Target/WFTF2018/Planner25-Poland.ods

Cameron, what was the scope height that you used? I've been looking into optimal scope heights under various conditions.


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Kerndtc
(@kerndtc)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 91
2018-11-16 16:13:50  

I believe I'm at 2.3 or 2.4", it's been a good height for me. We use the same UTG dovetail/ picatinny adapter and I use the 1.5" Burris XTR Signature rings. 


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 123
2018-11-16 16:49:52  
Posted by: Kerndtc

I believe I'm at 2.3 or 2.4", it's been a good height for me. We use the same UTG dovetail/ picatinny adapter and I use the 1.5" Burris XTR Signature rings. 

I also used a 2.3" scope height all of last year on my 12fpe piston gun. That is a little higher than I have run in the past but lower than most other WFTF shooters. I did a spreadsheet that integrates course data, and rifle data. It determines variance from zero measured over the whole course. By varying the scope height in the spreadsheet, the object was to minimize the variation from zero (clicks). Assuming that minimum variation is optimum for a particular course, I got this for the Poland courses:

White course – 3.6” optimal scope height
Blue course – 3.8” optimal cope height
Black course – 2.8” optimal scope height

Among the piston shooters, it looked like you had the 2nd highest score on the Black course. And on the White course 9th. Do you think that your relatively low scope height had anything to do with that?

FWIW: I've gone to higher rings for 2019. My scope is now at 2.6" high. I'll likely be testing out that and some other changes to my piston gun starting in December or January.


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Scott A.
(@scott-allen)
Moderator FT
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 106
2018-11-16 17:32:37  

Scott, your file has a password, What is it?   Thanks for sharing it.

 

Scott A.


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Kerndtc
(@kerndtc)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 91
2018-11-16 17:54:44  

I think the flatter trajectory is beneficial of a taller scope height. But I think having your numbers be perfect is more important. I was extremely confident that my pellet was going to hit where my clicks were. I have considered trying he Burris extra high rings to bring me up to 2.6/2.7 but as a clicker I am not a fan over risking over rotation. 

I don't think my scope height was the main contributor to me scoring higher on the black course than the white, I am unsure how many piston shooters shot black. I believe the shooting conditions were better on the day I shot black. 

Are you clicking now?


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 123
2018-11-16 18:18:03  
Posted by: Scott A.

Scott, your file has a password, What is it?   Thanks for sharing it.

 

Scott A.

I did not create it so I don't know what the password is. Here is a link where I found the original:

http://www.aafta.org/Assets/resources/documents/Planner25.ods

I don't need a password to save it and enter data. Some things cannot be changed without a password.

Can you open the file and read it? Save it on your own computer and you should be able to change/enter most of the pertinent data.


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 123
2018-11-16 18:25:03  
Posted by: Kerndtc

I think the flatter trajectory is beneficial of a taller scope height. But I think having your numbers be perfect is more important. I was extremely confident that my pellet was going to hit where my clicks were. I have considered trying he Burris extra high rings to bring me up to 2.6/2.7 but as a clicker I am not a fan over risking over rotation. 

I don't think my scope height was the main contributor to me scoring higher on the black course than the white, I am unsure how many piston shooters shot black. I believe the shooting conditions were better on the day I shot black. 

Are you clicking now?

Ray Apelles does well at World matches and his scope looks to be 3 to 3.5" high. I saw Hans Apelles using a VERY high scope around 2012. I remember Ray using a lower scope prior to 2013. Ray if you are reading - What is your take on scope height for WFTF?

I tried clicking at one match. The scopes I have now are MOA/MOA for the reticle/turret, so the dope for clicking always matches the holdover. I can do either, but still prefer hold-over for most shots. I might try clicking for just positionals.

With my 2.6" high scope and 1/4moa turrets, I'm well under one turn at 10yards. If I went over 3" high, I would need more than a full turn.


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Ray Apelles
(@ateamray)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 19
2018-11-17 00:33:55  

 If you are relying on scope height to get the pellet in I think you're missing the point more than missing the target. Range find correctly and click or hold correctly And the pellet path at the Target will be in the center of the Killzone. That is true weather the scope is 1 inch high or 7 inches high. if you are off by one yard It won't really matter much. If you are off by 3 yards then it will become a problem. I'm usually not off by more than one or two yards if I follow all of my range finding rules correctly. I do not have a choice in lowering my scope. If I lower my scope I cannot get to the scope. So I'm forced to have a high scope height when I would actually prefer it to be at least an inch lower than it actually is. It's currently at 3.4 in. and I shot Worlds at 10.5 ft lb. my new rule is to set all my guns up at 11 foot pounds instead of 11 and a half foot pounds. I almost got disqualified in Wales when all of the Spring Gun velocities went up on the first day in the rain. The extra half a foot pound is just plain not worth it. So from now on my goal is 11 ft lbs. And I don't care about the scope height. I care that my trajectory is correct and I range find correctly. And get a very Comfortable hold on the target. I think people are worrying way too much about scope height. there are other things that are way more important In order to compete successfully overseas.


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Ray Apelles
(@ateamray)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 19
2018-11-17 08:48:26  

Poland Worlds course Troyer difficulties from Cameron's post

 

White: 35.52 T

 

Black: 35.39 T

 

Blue: 35.87 T

 

 Essentially completely equal courses to the untrained eye.

 

Based on Leo's spreadsheet

  

 Black course 38.74 yards average 

 

White course 41.23 yards average 

 

 Blue course 42.16 yards average 

 

So we can see that the black course was shorter and that's why it was easier.

 

I never shot the black course. I only shot the white and blue.

 

I have been saying for quite a while now that the average Target yardage is what is important on a course. Not the apparent difficulty based on any system.

 

 We need to be practicing on much longer courses to prepare for worlds. We need to be prepared for the wind. Preparing on Tiny killzone's up close only tells you that your trajectory is working, it will fail you at a World's course.


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Wayne Burns
(@wayne-burns)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 88
2018-11-17 09:54:36  

Ray, I agree with you about target distance being a key factor.  We have switched all our courses away from smaller KZs closer to mostly all full size kill zones at greater distances.  Our courses are set up like a worlds course would be.  Ranging and Reading the wind is the key to success on our courses.... and adjusting for up and down hill angles.  It really is a different shooting world than a normal AAFTA course.

But, as far as scope height is concerned, we have always gone for the lowest scope height possible and still load the gun and get a comfortable shooting position.  The room for ranging error is lowered.  That's just a basic fact of life.  Sure it works fine if you have everything right, but there is more room for error when the scope is higher.  About 2.25" is about as low as one can go with a 60 mm objective on a USFT.  I wish I could get lower.

For Hunter class, we recommend smaller objective scopes and getting it to 1.5" if possible.  Then every mil dot is in the kill zone for most shots.   Room for ranging error is lowered a lot.

 

Wayne

 

Wayne Burns,

Match Director,

Ashland Air Rifle Range


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Johninma
(@johninma)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 55
2018-11-17 14:09:17  

Sounds good to me Scott. Though you may want to look into past BFTA Championships, EFTA and WAFTA championships as well to get a better idea of how the English are going to set up the course.


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CanadianFT
(@canadianft)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 11
2018-11-17 18:00:18  

Not trying to be a smarta**, but I am at a bit of a loss seeing how the order that targets are shot affects how one practises.  The part about choosing the right pellet etc. makes perfect sense as I am currently doing that also.  If there are two targets on a lane and they have consecutive numbers on them, well....


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 123
2018-11-17 21:22:02  
Posted by: Ray Apelles

...And the pellet path at the Target will be in the center of the Killzone. That is true weather the scope is 1 inch high or 7 inches high. if you are off by one yard It won't really matter much....

...I think people are worrying way too much about scope height. there are other things that are way more important In order to compete successfully overseas.

I have run the numbers and 1" vs 7" makes a significant difference. We get about a 10yard span for a line of sight tangency to the trajectory. Distance estimates are least critical in that range. A 1" scope puts that tangency at about 18 yards. A 7" scope puts it at about 45 yards. If I though most all targets were between 10-25 yards, I'd go as low as possible. If I thought most all targets were at 40-55 yards, I'd get a lot closer to 7". Hopefully not losing too many points on the few other targets.

A lucky coincidence that your 3.4" scope height is what I would have set as the optimal (based on clicks/holdovers) for the three courses at the Poland match. Obviously a good height for a gun dedicated to the WFTF world match. Maybe not ideal for a typical AAFTA GP or National match. I'm trying a compromise height of 2.6".

I'm not worrying about scope height. It's just one detail that I need to setup on my gun. About the "other things that are way more important" than scope height - I want to work on those as well.


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 123
2018-11-17 21:29:38  
Posted by: Ray Apelles

...

I have been saying for quite a while now that the average Target yardage is what is important on a course. Not the apparent difficulty based on any system.

...

Ray, I think we have argued that point in the past.

What really makes a difficult course? It's not the average distance targets that cause most misses. It's not the average Troyer targets either. Not usually for the  top shooters.

The targets with a high difficulty factor (>~ 40T?), and targets that are far (>~ 45m?) both make a course difficult. All three Poland courses had almost exactly the same far targets and same number of high Troyer targets. One noticeable difference was that the White and Blue courses had only (3) 15mm targets, while the Black course had (8) 15mm targets. But without seeing a hit rate for each target, no way to tell if that contributed to lower scores on Black. The "average" that best indicates difficulty is the average scores on a course. Among the piston shooters, the Black course had the lowest average  scores on day1 and the lowest average scores on Day2. Based on the scores, I'd have to say that the Black course was more difficult than the other two.


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Scotchmo
(@scotchmo)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 123
2018-11-17 21:32:58  
Posted by: CanadianFT

Not trying to be a smarta**, but I am at a bit of a loss seeing how the order that targets are shot affects how one practises.  The part about choosing the right pellet etc. makes perfect sense as I am currently doing that also.  If there are two targets on a lane and they have consecutive numbers on them, well....

... then shoot them in numerical order. We don't use target numbers at most of our matches, but we run them left-right (same as WFTF). Practicing on courses where they specify near-far, far-near, or right-left is not good conditioning.


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CanadianFT
(@canadianft)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 11
2018-11-17 23:34:41  
Posted by: Scotchmo
We don't use target numbers at most of our matches, but we run them left-right (same as WFTF). Practicing on courses where they specify near-far, far-near, or right-left is not good conditioning.

I guess I just feel that shooting targets in any specified order is good.  Being mindful of the order is part of the game whether you are at the worlds or a club match.  The world targets are numbered and I cannot think of a simpler way to shoot.  Absolutely no guessing for which one is the closest or which one is more left or right.


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Kerndtc
(@kerndtc)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 91
2018-11-18 02:30:11  

Scott,

I personally felt the black course was more difficult. 

A part of the reason it was more difficult was due to me shooting the black course during the evening match two full hours late. The sun was going down and it was extremely difficult to range and even find the targets.

The only two other USA piston shooters that shot black was Leo and Matt S. Leo shot black as his first course and I'm sure he could agree with me that it was getting dark. 

Proof is in the pudding, if there were less average hits on a specific course and conditions were similar it might be more difficult, or the shooters that shot it had a bad day.

 


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glr59
(@glr59)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 70
2018-11-18 06:04:56  

#1 tip....   practice    🙂

Jerry


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Greg Sauve
(@greg5850)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 20
2018-11-19 13:56:38  

Right on Jerry!  Also, practice in wind and rain.  PCPs shot most of match 2 in the rain in Poland.  We shot several lanes in a downpour, before they called it cause of lightning.  

 

Greg


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 269
2018-11-20 11:42:50  

When I "talked" to Pawel G. about the layout published, he commented something like: 

"Those were design numbers and the end layout was not exactly that one". There was, for a time, a note in that sense in the website, but I cannot find it anymore.

So, what was the final layout? I don't know, and I am sure neither does anyone else. LOL!

I do know that the Blue course seemed more difficult to me because the dark blue color chosen did not show your hits. Italy, where the color was first selected and used, used a LIGHT blue. Poland used a rather dark blue, and since we were shooting that course in the afternoon, it got to the point where it was difficult to see the KZ's themselves.

The white course had some targets that were in a gully and I had to take them kneeling because I could not see the target from my usual sitting position, still, white course was a little better for  me, but we shot it in a hurry with Marshalls screaming at the top of their lungs to hurry, not the best situation. Skies were also darkening, foreboding sign of the impending storm that would pummel the PCP shooters in the afternoon.

In any case, whatever you think you may prepare for, the WFTC's will throw a curve ball to you that you didn't expect.

Flexibility and adaptability are as important as anything else in your battery of tricks and knowledge.

And knowledge of the rules doesn't pay too much either. If you need to discuss with a Marshall in the middle of the match you will not be as even keeled as if you hadn't. It WILL affect you. Marshalling, as much as the "courses" want to make as uniform as possible is a human activity and, as such, subject to all the vagaries of human nature.

In England, of all places, we need to be prepared to face the guys that think they invented the sport (though that is highly debatable) and therefore, own it.

Pride will be a factor, if not also prejudice.

It may or may not happen (hopefully it will NOT), but we need to go there with the mindset that matches are won with POINTS, not rules.

I am not against as much analysis as anyone wants to perform. Just be consciously aware that reality cannot be argued with.

My $0.02

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM


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gokidd
(@gokidd)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 103
2018-11-22 11:52:36  

"Pride will be a factor, if not also prejudice."

British literary reference ... Hector you're a hoot.

Stay straight and shoot well.
Bob

La Pine, Oregon USA
Sacramento Valley FTC Newsletter


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