The rules handbook, section 5.9.3 (pg 25) talks about supporting the gun during ranging... only the shooter's body can support the gun, no extra support (trees, poles, tripod etc) can be used.
In AAFTA matches Ive shot, it was legal for standing lanes to rangefind sitting down, then getting up to shoot offhand.
I cannot find in the rules book, if ranging while seated is legal. no mention of it being specifically allowed or disallowed. Soooooo can I range seated then shoot standing? If this is addressed in the rules, please show me where
The other thing I cant find, legal or not, is shooting kneeling lanes from the offhand position. AAFTA rules allow that... but the WFTF book doesnt mention it either way. Chapter and verse if it does, please
Thanx
Ok, back to practicing.....
Dan;
USUALLY, stands are provided for rangeing in the standing/offhand positional lanes. IF there is no stand, or IF you do not like the stand, or IF the stand would take time adjusting to YOUR height, then just tell your partners that you will be ranging sitting down and do it.
The rules say that no extra support will be used while rangefinding, but then show this picture as "OK":
So, CLEARLY, rangefinding sitting down is OK.
Now, if you really want to do this, then:
- Remember that in positional lanes, timer starts when the gun is in hand. So, sit down into your natural shooting position and THEN take the rifle.
- Range the higher numbered target FIRST, and then the lower numbered target.
You can then get up (remember the second shot range), and you will be already ranged and clicked to your first shot.
Disengage the safety and take it.
Then set up your gun for the second shot and take it.
This saves time and allows you to be more relaxed on the lane.
MOST of us do badly on the offhand shots lanes because we feel we are going to run out of time.
Now, as far as kneeling shots are concerned, you have TWO options:
a) IF you have a medical condition that does not allow your knees to bend to the needed angles, BUT you COULD bend a little into a somewhat "kneeling" position with your backside in the air, then you can tell the MD with at least 24 hours in advance that you have such a condition and that you need an added "cushion" between your backside and your calf. He should ask for pictures and submit it to the international jury who will decide if they allow YOU and YOU ALONE, this "accommodation".
You WILL need to present medical proof/diagnosis to request this.
b) You CAN take any shot from the next harder position. For example, I have a VERY low sitting position, and sometimes I need to take the sitting shots kneeling because I cannot see the KZ otherwise. In THOSE cases, since it is not a "discipline" lane, I can use my bumbag to support my rear foot, and I can even put my foot sideways (which is forbidden in the Discipline Kneeling form). If you cannot, under any circumstances, take a kneeling shot, then shooting it offhand will be perfectly correct.
For the kneeling shots I ALSO range sitting down. Following the above mentioned procedure. IF the above procedure does not fit you, then design your own procedure, AND train the WHOLE procedure during your local matches and your training sessions, and you will be fine with the time.
As to the rules that support this, read:
HTH, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Hector, are you sure about your point a) with regards to placing a cushion between butt and heel is allowed in the world match? I would think that if you cannot kneel, you simply take kneeling lanes standing. I am quite sure that placing a bag of some sort between heel and butt would give an unfair advantage and be disallowed as per 4.4.3 in your post.
@canadian_ft ... you are correct. In Worlds, per UK rules, no extra support bag between your foot and butt is permitted. You can not sit on your foot with it flat to the ground, and it must be toe on the ground and foot upright and heel against your butt. AAFTA lets people use the bag between their heel and butt. In Worlds, if you can not kneel for whatever reason, you shall stand for the kneeling lanes. Which in most cases, are pushed to their limit of about 45 yards. It makes them a little hard for standers...
Thanks for the question Dan. I just signed up for the 2024 Worlds and am looking over the rules. I had a similar question. Keep the questions coming. I am a local match Open shooter so I need to get up to speed on WFTF.
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b) You CAN take any shot from the next harder position. For example, I have a VERY low sitting position, and sometimes I need to take the sitting shots kneeling because I cannot see the KZ otherwise….
The WFTF rules say:
“2.2.5 Targets face plate & paddle must be 100% visible from all shootings positions; standing, kneeling, sitting and prone.”
Hopefully, they follow all of the course setting rules at the WFTF World matches.
@bill_corder & @ Canadian_FT:
You both are right for NORMAL shooters. The rule mentioned applies to DISABLED shooters.
Now, WHAT is a "disabled" shooter?
That is up to the Doctors and the MD to decide.
In previous World's there HAVE been cases of accommodations for people on wheelchairs, with metal inserts in their bones, or with metal frames OUTSIDE their body.
If the Chief Marshall of the US World's wants to take a "stronger" position about this, then this situation should be clarified well before the Match starts.
The rules are clear, what is not clear is what will be the interpretation of "disabled". So, now is the time to make it clear here and to the World.
I am good either way, I have absolutely no problem with whatever interpretation is decided, some clear lines need to be drawn by the responsible parties AND made public.
JMHO
HM
Absolutely correct, Scott.
BUT, in reality, there is no enforcement of this rule.
IDEALLY, the FIRST squad to shoot a lane, should analyze the lane and report any issues or problems. The reality is that, at a World's level, it is "each man for himself and as long as I can do it, it is doable for all the rest".
AND you also have these two rules:
"2.5.8 Before starting the championship a country representative (RGB, team captain or a designated shooter) may validate the circuit and request to double check a target distance. As an option the organization may decide to allow all shooters to walk the course or not. No range finders are allowed.
2.5.9 As soon the championship starts any target outside the valid distances (including positional targets) will be considered as valid provided the target distance does not exceed 50 metres distance and not less than 9 metres. "
Since in most cases, the person chosen to represent the country/RGB is a top shooter, he may not be interested in looking for aspects that pertain to the "lesser mortals".
Take Italy, for example:
The "kite strings" used originally, we OK'd by ALL the attending RGB's, but once the Match started they were ALL protested by the SAME RGB's that had already inspected AND "validated" the course.
Or South Africa:
There were IIRC, TWO targets that were simply invisible from a low sitting position (let alone the "South African" position). Again, those targets had already been inspected and validated by the RGB's.
One target was declared invalid (even though some of us HAD gotten it) and another had to be shot by everyone regardless of it being illegal.
AAFTA used to have a specific measurement, IIRC it was that the KZ had to be visible when looked at from a 15" high POV. Now, 15" may seem low, but the reality is that there are shooters that have positions as low as 10", and I am not advocating for myself, MY LOS is about 13½" high, so I am not advocating for myself.
In many ways, super-low targets are taken as a way to get back at those shooters that use the SA/DeadMan's position.
In here, the problem will be the definition of what constitutes a "Prone" position because the European rules are radically different from the American.
Setting up a NUMERICAL limit to the height of the LOS from which all targets are visible will PREVENT some issues and problems.
To repeat myself, whatever it is that is decided, I will agree, I just think that precise definitions should be given to all aspects to reduce problems and protests. And here goes another example:
In Poland, the shooters that protested the MOST, were the locals. They were the ones that obstructed the course and the timing and created a mess. Us "bloody foreigners" were not the problem.
To paraphrase what is said about real-estate and the location, what matters with rules is "Clarity, clarity, clarity" and "Enforcement, enforcement, enforcement".
There is NO rule more unfair than that which is not enforced, or the one that is not perfectly clear.
JMHO
HM
@hector_j_medina_g Hector, The picture illustrated could be perceived as kneeling??? Only based on the fact that you can see only one leg. 🙄
If you look closely, you will see that it is the left knee the one that is up. While the shooter is right handed.
So, the person is in the FT "sitting" position.
😉
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I have looked at the Competitors list and there is no indication that anyone is claiming a disability. I do not think age is considered a disability, although at a certain point, your ability does decrease with age. Like most sports, your ability to compete decreases with age and fortunately, FT is one of the sports that has a fairly wide age range that can compete successfully. Extending your own ability to compete is up to each individual. Another really nice thing in FT, is that many compete with no thought of "winning"; if you are there and participating, you win.
Some shooters seem to have no issue with the rules as written and others struggle to understand the very same rules. I am wondering if perfectly clear rules exist. There always seems to be someone who find something to protest against. I'll be 75 this year at the worlds and I will have an amazing time with great people. I will assume the folks running the match know what they are doing and I will abide by the rules, probably without even thinking about them.
I will absolutely win, regardless of my score.
Tim
I have looked at the Competitors list and there is no indication that anyone is claiming a disability. I do not think age is considered a disability, although at a certain point, your ability does decrease with age. Like most sports, your ability to compete decreases with age and fortunately, FT is one of the sports that has a fairly wide age range that can compete successfully. Extending your own ability to compete is up to each individual. Another really nice thing in FT, is that many compete with no thought of "winning"; if you are there and participating, you win.
Some shooters seem to have no issue with the rules as written and others struggle to understand the very same rules. I am wondering if perfectly clear rules exist. There always seems to be someone who find something to protest against. I'll be 75 this year at the worlds and I will have an amazing time with great people. I will assume the folks running the match know what they are doing and I will abide by the rules, probably without even thinking about them.
I will absolutely win, regardless of my score.
Tim
This needs to be it's own post.
OK Guys....here is the official stance, as I will be the Chief Marshal for the event.
As rule 4.4 Disabled Shooters states.....
4.4.1 Shooters that cannot for whatever physical or mental reason, comply with a particular shooting position or transport their own equipment, shall inform the Chief Marshal 24 hours before commencement of a match and obtain permission to use an alternative position or obtain permission to have an aid transporting their equipment safely, providing that no unfair advantage is gained.
4.4.2 All Marshals shall be made aware of such an arrangement.
4.4.3 The allowed alternative positions are:
a. Alternative to kneeling position is standing
b. Alternative to standing position is NOT available (each target counts as a missed target)
These are the official WFTF rules, as they are written, and as they will be enforced.
Dont be one of those people to wait til the last minute if you think you need special accommodations, please email wftc2024@gmail.com, so we can address it early.
If anyone has a question, feel free to contact me, right up until Nov 12th (when we start with an early sight in range day) , and throughout the comp. I would advise every participant who has not shot WFTF before to read the rules on the world field target federation.org site. We are going to offer a rules overview for any shooters (mostly guys from the USA) on the wednesday before the shoot ( sight in day also), to clarify things and rules that must be followed to avoid problems.
Thanks alot.....Bill Corder BC
Hector, When attempting the kneeling position my left knee is up. My rifle butt stock is in my right shoulder same as the pic above. Have I been attempting to shoot Kneeling wrong the last few years. It hasn't been an easy transition but a wip.
Other Comments on Kneeling.
In 2013 at the Nationals in Texas I gave Leo a letter from my Doctor that replaced both knees in Nov. 2011 that I could not kneel because lack of range of motion. Leo allowed me to shoot kneeling sitting on a bucket. The following year I received the same accommodation at the National in Louisanna. So Under AAFTA rules this accommodation has some history. Can not honestly say that this modified position worked that well but it did exist back then.
Years back I believe Bob Dye who also had a knee replacement had something to do with a thick pad being placed in the interior of the angle of the rear shooting leg to allow sitting back on the rear leg. I am not sure that accommodation worked that well from him.
Hector, When attempting the kneeling position my left knee is up. My rifle butt stock is in my right shoulder same as the pic above. Have I been attempting to shoot Kneeling wrong the last few years. It hasn't been an easy transition but a wip.
Other Comments on Kneeling.
In 2013 at the Nationals in Texas I gave Leo a letter from my Doctor that replaced both knees in Nov. 2011 that I could not kneel because lack of range of motion. Leo allowed me to shoot kneeling sitting on a bucket. The following year I received the same accommodation at the National in Louisanna. So Under AAFTA rules this accommodation has some history. Can not honestly say that this modified position worked that well but it did exist back then.
Years back I believe Bob Dye who also had a knee replacement had something to do with a thick pad being placed in the interior of the angle of the rear shooting leg to allow sitting back on the rear leg. I am not sure that accommodation worked that well from him.
Now I understand you, Bill, apologies. No you have not been shooting wrong all these years, and yes, for ALL of us the positionals are a WIP.
Yes, the picture shown COULD be interpreted as a shooter ranging for a shot in a kneeling position. BUT, FOR THE SHOT, the kneeling position definition requires that the gun be handheld; and I quote definition 8.6.g from page 40 of the Comprehensive Rules:
"The Leading Hand will support the gun, and forward of the wrist should itself be unsupported (the wrist is deemed to be the hinged joint between hand and forearm)."
and shows these pictures:
This one is an INVALID position:
This one is a VALID position:
In past world's the "Acid Test" has been for a Marshall to interrupt the shooter in question once he has assumed his position, and then lifting the gun from his hands and requesting the shooter to "drop the hand". IF the hand does not drop freely, then the position has been deemed to be ilegal by the Marshall as having a "supported wrist", which is specifically dis-allowed by the above definition.
An added note for the kneeling position is that no part of the shooter's person or clothing, can even APPEAR to be touching the hamster:
As this is disallowed by sections h) and i) of the rules.
I would STRONGLY recommend downloading and reading the WHOLE of the rules:
https://www.world-field-target-federation.org/_files/ugd/aa90e8_71bd26278fc34f30b095466ad71af6d0.pdf
It is a bit lengthy, and somethings require two or even three readings and sleeping on the subject (at least they do to me), so take your time and do it at your own pace. It's just another aspect of preparing for a World's class Match.
Bill, the WFTF kneeling position is one of the most difficult and contested positions because it has so many details, even the position of the jacket "rear flaps" has been regulated and the BOOT/SHOE needs to be FULLY visible and VERTICAL when viewed from the rear.
I cannot tell you how many shooters have received completely inopportune warnings (as 2 seconds before the shot is taken) and verbal notices due to their "kneeling position" been deemed ilegal by some shooter that then complains to a Marshall.
Yes, some shooters will "weaponize" the rules if they feel it is in their favour.
Even we, in the USA, have had a few shooters that were "rule pushers", they suscribe to Yogi Berra's opinion that "If you are not cheating you're not trying hard enough".
But I think that MOST shooters are good persons and rule-abiding sportspersons. Guided not only by the letter of the rule, but by the SPIRIT of the rule.
The "bad beans" are few and far between. Most of us want to follow the rules. The "Culture Shock" comes when shooters from other countries get together and the different customs and habits make for confusions. I. E. what is "prone" for Americans would be "illegal" for most Europeans.
Thanks for the comment, HTH, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
@canadian_ft thanks! I plan to kick everyone’s ass and take names. There will be so many people there I want to take everyone’s name in advance and not after the match when everyone is trying to get home.
Hmmm I'm not on the list, didnt see Hector's name either....
edit: so in a briedf moment of panic, back tracked thru my reciepts.... I have paid and registered , phew 🙂
edit edit: didnt realize the list scrolled.... Im listed (yea!), also saw Hector's name..... 40+ plus years in IT.... shoulda known it scrolled 🙂
@hector_j_medina_g Hector, Thanks for your full explanation of that position. I was beginning to think I may have a form of dylexia. I know my brain isn't as sharp as it use to be but I'm pleased that my cataract surgey is still working. I always appreciate your insights on our shooting rules and respect them.
Bill
@canadian_ft PCP (unless my rifle breaks right before the match then I will bring a spring rifle). I typically shoot Open class. Many matches I shoot a 12fpe rifle in Open because I like the harness. The reason I like the harness is that I am in TX and it’s too hot for a jacket. I am going to Worlds for the experience. I know I will get whipped. The competitor list on the website is not up to date even though it says it updates every 15 minutes. I am not listed and a couple others I know that are signed up are not on there. I just wanted to know who was going from my area for possible lodging and carpool opportunities.
@dan_house Thanks. I didn’t realize the list scrolled. I found my name and the others I knew that were signed up.
