What is going on with our FT Organization?

I fail to see how shooting one shot per target would make any difference for any class.  You take your normal shooting position for your division, range however you normally do, take the shot and do the same for the next target.  How is that so different?

Hey Bill,

  I'd agree with you if the rule change was a requirement. It's optional. 

  Those MD's that don't want to do the work of adding a bunch of lanes for a WFTF style match will keep on as before. Those that are willing to do so are supported by the rules.

  The real problem is that it's harder for old shooters to get up and down 10 more times, which I totally understand.

K

@knobs Keith, I didn't read it was optional. So you're saying its Woburn that will decided our game at the National. It will be a strain on the traditional older Hunter class and we have some shooters that will not be able to do it. We just don't jump up and run to the next lane the way we use to. This isn't the way we have always been asked to play our game and not a fair deal. When you take the game you want to play and create a hardship for another class is not the American way just so you can have a dress rehearsal for another class. Our National does not belong to the smallest class we have other than the Open class. The Worlds class belongs to them and we have always supported them and cheered them on.

This note added at 6pm 4/7/24

Keith, I printed the new 2024 AAFTA Club and Shooters Handbook off a couple months ago. Revised on 12/11/2023

Unless there is a newer version there is no mention of (To allow one shot per target  at a Grand Prix.) Optional. It is not listed under Version History 2024 on page 27. If it is somewhere else in the rules it is well hidden. The Optional part should be well identified.

Thanks for your  imput.

I guess I just don’t understand why 1 shot per target is such a big deal.  It’s really the way it should be done all the time. As a former MD I do appreciate 2 shots per target as you set out half as many targets.  As a shooter I wouldn’t care either way.  Just don’t understand the reason for the complaint.  

@bill_day

If it was up to me we'd shoot 40 shots FT and 40 shots silhouette. The standing would even up the game for those who have trouble getting up and down. No coats, no slings, no gloves.

Knobs

I have an old revision of AAFTA rule book from November 21, 2021.  Regarding the number of shots per target at a GP it states: 

"The match must consist of 100 or more shots over at least 2 rounds not exceeding 60 shots each,
with no more than 2 shots per target and 3 targets per lane. No more than 2 targets per lane are
allowed at the National match."

- With NO MORE THAN 2 shots per target, which would have allowance for one shot per target. 

There was probably some unintentional rewording in the subsequent rules that changed the meaning to exactly 2 shots per target.  The most recent changes were likely to revert an unintentional rule change.  

@shootermeb 

"With NO MORE THAN 2 shots per target, which would have allowance for one shot per target"

That sounds like double talk to me. I thought we were trying clarify our rules not read something 

into them that isn't there.

The first response was closer to the truth it will challenge the Hunter class however the "Optional"

part of it does not exist in the latest edition of AAFTA rules. This could very well be a blatant

attempt to change our rules in the future not just this one National.

 It isn't worth changing our American rules for our National just because the World WFTF is coming

to town. Their rules already exclude our Hunter class and state no other classes can compete in a

World WFTF event. That question was asked last year.

The UK HFT class broke away of the WFTF some years back and are doing well.

Is it worth rattling the cage of our biggest class over this?

@brazos It all boils down to age and health. A good part of the Hunter class is over 70 with some in there 80's. The reason most of them are still shooting is because of the Bucket and Bipod. If we took away these aids the Hunter class would be much smaller.

Many of this class have supported AAFTA for many years because they physically can still play the game. The 25 target marathon will be very challenging for these shooters and some will drop out. I don't know your name or your age but maybe someday you will have a better understanding of trying to play this game into your Golden years and then have the activity level jump up 40 to 50%.  

@jim_the_beard John, when Leo G was discussing this he made no mention that the Nationals would take the WFTF Approach. A few of our shooters only became aware of it when you announced it last week. I have never received much assistance from AFFTA and lied to by the chairman a few years back. So pardon me if I want my opinion recognized by my peers. My concerns are real so no more lecturing and we will watch how this plays out. I received communication for a few that attended your last match and the reason for my concern. I don't believe I have never met then gentlemen you mention but there is always exceptions to everything. I know a few Hunter class shooters that could likely do your 25 target match and more but few over 70 would likely not. We like our existing hunter rules all though they still have room for improvement in our optics availability. I had my opportunity with this effort last year and realized after 3 months of training my body would not cooperate. So right now I am pleased to still be in a class that I can play. Just sad to see out Nationals beginning to fall apart for the Hunter class.

You say you started talking about this last October well isn't it kind of funny that in the 2024 AFFTA revisions set forth 6 weeks later (Dec 11,2023) posted a new rule would allow one shot per target at a GP. They must have ESP or something conveniently was coveyed to them. That is only my opinion John and I don't wear a tin foil hat. 

WOW!  Before I make any other comments i must say that I give a substantial amount of deference to any body who runs any kind of field target match.  It's just a lot of work!  Having said that, my comments follow.

Shots per target AND targets per Lane, AND also the number of lanes do matter!  These are just a few factors involved in an FT course.  Just think about the logistics of it   The more shots per target the shorter the course,  the more targets per lane the shorter the course, and by now you guessed it, the fewer number of lanes the shorter the course.  This all means less work to set the course, less time to run the match, less walking, getting up and down, and even less real estate required.  So it does matter!  What to do?  Well during my tenure as a match director I settled on three targets per lane, two shots at each target with a total of 60 shots for a match.  That's just how I did it.  Others may differ but with that we can easily field up to 40 shooters.  One shot per target makes no sense to me (even if I was in great shape!).  Think about it for just a few minutes.

It would seem that this one shot per target is being proposed in order to prepare shooters for the "Worlds".  I personally do not think it is a rational choice to design one match to be in preparation for another match.  Each match should stand on its own.  The majority of shooters do not attend the "big" matches so why design a match for the few rather than the many?  It's like making courses super difficult and chasing away all new or just average shooters.  Anyway any match shooting is good practice.

Reflecting merit in each individual class?  We already do that, when we have enough shooters participating in each division?class.  AAFTA does not have an award for overall high shooter.

Any club can run whatever they what however we still have a very small group of FT shooters.  When we start to run WFTF or Hunter Field Target deviating from AAFTA rules and guidelines we just fragment our already small group.

Rick B.

To clarify to everyone unable to read between the lines... 

The November 21, 2021 rule book states "The match must consist of 100 or more shots over at least 2 rounds not exceeding 60 shots each, with no more than 2 shots per target and 3 targets per lane. No more than 2 targets per lane are
allowed at the National match."

The current rule book (December 11, 2023) states "The match must consist of 100 or more shots over at least 2 rounds not exceeding 60 shots each, with no more than 2 shots per target and 3 targets per lane. No more than 2 targets per lane are
allowed at the National match."

The Nov 2021 and Dec 2023 rules are exactly the same phrase.  I also assume this phrase was the same prior to 2021.  Maybe someone with older rulebooks available can clarify what this rule was prior to 2021.

Was everyone complaining about the allowance for one shot per target in 2021 and prior?  Why complain now?  

Read this: https://airgunwarriors.com/community/field-target/aafta-news-december-2023/

It clarifies something completely different than the allowance of one shot per target.  Rather it is something in regards to a threshold of shots that must be made on target before required to have its distance modified.  Maybe your complaint should be about an unclear set of document revisions. 

@shootermeb I do believe the AFFTA rules over the last 20 years always stated no more than 2 shots per target for Nationals. A GP typically allowed 2 shots per Target, 3 targets per lane for 10 lanes. This was the requirement for the typical 60 shot match. I don't see anythting in AAFTA  annual revisions concerning number of shots allowed per target until the 2024 rules were published last December. This is dating back to 2004. I believe the "No more that 2 shots" was always the rule until this new change if you shot 2 Target per lane or three per lane. This 1 shot per target only benefits the WFTF class as Richard referenced above. Our game never was played officially with one shot per target that I can remember. There was a club in Alabama around 2016 that was experimenting with the UK version of HFT. I have no idea what their rules were but I do know it never went any where.

If anyone disagrees please set me straight. 

@bill_day 

Read this specific post where Hector questions the documentation, and citing at least since 2019 section D has been written in a way that would allow one shot per target (no more than 2).  https://airgunwarriors.com/community/postid/63931/

Then, read this specific post, which is in response to Hector's questioning what this change is all about, because there seems to be no change to the rule. https://airgunwarriors.com/community/postid/63935/

Per the response from Cloud9AG, it seems the documented change is poorly worded, and in reality, it wasn't a change to whether or not a course would not allow 1 shot per target, but that there is now clarification as to when you must change the target's distance when shooting the same targets on day 1 and day 2.  

Before this stated change, if you shot the same target day 1 as on day 2, whether you shot the target once or twice on Day 1; the target would need to be moved to a new distance on Day 2.

Now, the new ruling is clarifying you can keep the target that is only shot once on day 1 at exactly the same distance for day 2, because it has not been shot twice.  However, if you shot a target twice on Day 1, it must be moved to a new distance for day 2. 

@shootermeb What the heck is your real name?  Please e-mail me if you will at dayjd at sacoriver .net. I have no issues with you whatsoever. I have met a lot of shooters in my last 18 years of FT but only know most of them by their real names.

Anyway, I know Hector very well and have the utmost respect for him and his family. He is actually one of the most intelligent people I have met in the FT game. When I say intelligent I mean about many things not just field target.

If Hector thinks my thoughts about this WFTF Nationals are wrong then I might not necessarily agree with him but I would respect his knowledge and move on.  Of which I am about to do anyway. I have made my thoughts public and I honestly feel this year is all about USA WFTF. It is more important than anything else going on in Field Target to include those old feeble AAFTA shooters that won't be able to keep up with demanding WFTF type of shooting. If our lost is their gain then so be it!

Thanks for all the comments but as far as I am concerned I am the only one crying foul so I must be wrong.  I have no further comments to make here.

Over and Out, Bill Day

I've been watching this from the sideline, and finally feel I should add my two cents. 

1) I like the extra challenge of shooting each target but once

2) I dislike having to go sit and stand at 10 extra lanes - I am out of shape and feel the extra lanes at the end of the day. I could/should do something about that, but Bill, as stated cannot

As the rules are written it is not 'legal' to have four targets per lane - that would be the only way to placate both parties - IMHO. Perhaps an exception can be made for the nationals? 

Stephan 

When you invoke the Devil....

My dear Bill,
Thanks for your kind words. You know I love & respect you too much to simply not say anything.

Mike,
Thanks for fishing the reference to my earlier conversation with Jeff Cloud.

Rich
You know that I greatly respect your experience and knowledge, what you are missing in your arguments is that more lanes means that more shooters can participate in the Match.

But let's tackle each aspect AS I UNDERSTAND IT in order and I'll try to be brief:

Shooters per match:
A 60 shot match over 10 lanes @ 3 targets per lane allows, at MOST 33 shooters (one three man squad per lane, plus one floating down between lane 10 and lane 1) AND it would be a SLOW match taking easily 5 hours (from experience).
The SAME 60 shot match shot over 15 lanes at 22 targets per lane, would allow the almost identical 32 shooters at 2 men squads but it would be over in less than 4 hours.
The SAME 60 shots match over 30 lanes, at 2 targets per lane, can take 62 shooters in 2 men squads and takes about 3 hours.
So, there IS a VALID reason to use more lanes, especially in the GP's (ONLY shoots where these specific rules apply; please note that these rules do NOT apply to "standard/AAFTA compliant" one day shoots).

To WHOM is the clarification directed:
As I understand from Jeff, the "rule change" was mostly designed for the MD's that host GP events. AND not only for that relatively small subsection of the sport, but for those that host GP's that are shot on two days over the SAME COURSE. 
As the old notes read, IF someone was hosting a GP event, the number of targets that would have to be moved between day one and day two would have doubled. because the note limited the number of shots taken by ALL THE SHOOTERS IN THE ROSTER at a single target.

So, let's say that there is a GP that has 15 lanes, two targets per lane, two shots per target. That is a 60 shot per day match. They can accommodate up to 32 shooters. Let's say that some are AAFTA Hunter (both Classes), AAFTA Open PCP, WFTF PCP, WFTF Piston. Because they would ALL shoot the same course on day ONE, for day TWO 50% of the targets would have to be moved at least one yard from their original location. The rule notes say that each target cannot be shot more than twice in a "round". Here "Round" means the whole roster of shooters.

IF an MD decided to shoot one shot per target in a GP scenario where there were 30 lanes at one shot per target for the same 60 shots per day, then the group of shooters could legally shoot the SAME course on Day TWO, without any targets needing to be moved because the targets have not been shot TWICE by ALL shooters.

Does it seem fair to you all that a GP is composed of TWO IDENTICAL Sessions? It doesn't to me.

Perhaps the note's clarification is not exactly clear.

I do understand that more lanes mean more walking and more sitting down and getting up (or is it sitting up and getting down?), so let me state here how our Puerto Rican friends have solved this issue, and it is relatively simple:
The PR GP shot in February, was shot under two different modalities:
WFTF Division shooters (Piston and PCP), shot 25 lanes on day one at two targets per lane, one shot per target for 50 shots per day; day two was another round at different targets for 100 shots total.
AAFTA Divisions shooters shot the FIRST 13 Lanes (for a 52 shot match) at 2 targets per lane, 2 shots per target. Repeating the method of the first 13 lanes for day two.
Because they are different Divisions, there is no problem with the scores.
Hunters and Open's did NOT finish much earlier than the WFTF divisions
Everyone was "mostly" happy, though some complained that they got more discipline shots, the number of discipline shots for all Divisions/classes was within their specific rules.
Can this be done in the US? Maybe. It would just mean that the number of Hunter/Open shooters would be limited to 42 (three person squads) AND that it would be the MD's prerogative to define WHICH lanes the AAFTA Divisions shot. This would allow the MD to select such combination of lanes that would afford the same overall averages of Troyer, Distances and Challenges, as designed by the MD.
SHOULD it be done? IMHO, yes. It is high time we stop comparing scores between Divisions and the sempiternal "High score for the Match" becomes the ludicrous benchmark it has always been (even if I myself has fallen at times into this trap); part of the success of the American AFTA is that we have managed to keep all FT shooters under one roof. Comparisons of this style just play into factionalism and separatism. I repeat: JMHO.

Now, to close:

Since MOST GP shoots are shot over TWO courses, separating the Hunters (sometimes bundled up with the Open PCP's) into one course, and the WFTF's guys (all together) into another; the note and the clarification is, IMHO, almost a moot point, though it does try to convey the SPIRIT that the courses shot by each group of shooters in a two day Match need to be different from day ONE to day TWO.

I hope I am correct and, if I am not, I hope Jeff will chime in.

I would, again, like to thank ALL THE MD's (Present AND Past) in the sport, it's a labour of love to set up the matches, keep the scores, do the reports, maintain the targets, take off and stowaway all the paraphernalia needed for a Match (from stakes/gates to strings to base blocks to targets to markers . . . . .)
MD's deserve all the respect and support we can give them. Without them, there would be no FT.

And I would also thank AAFTA's  BoG's, it is mostly a thankless task that is absolutely essential to have, and one that is done with the "meagerest" of resources because of the way AAFTA is structured. Thanks to all G's.

To all: I hope we can continue to share the lanes, even if we do not completely agree, let's look at the things that unite us and let's enjoy this sport that is, IMHO, the most challenging shooting sport of all.

Keep well and shoot straight!

HM

@bill_day 

Ther is no use of the word optional. Perhaps it would have been better to say it's not mandatory.

Early this morning I expressed how I felt about what was going on with the 2024 National Deal. After a restless night I came to the conclusion that I was very wrong to take my frustration out here. I need a break from Field Target more likely just need to find another hobby.  I Apologize to John and Leo for any inference I may of implied. I have always felt that the hunter class was treated like the ugly sister in Field Target which is likely my personal disillusion.

Lastly, I apologize to AFFTA, WFTF and the Airgun Warriors community. I sincerely wish you all the best in your upcoming trip to Arizona.

Bill,

This is a hobby, so please no sleepless nights.  The whole purpose of this forum is to share information AND OPINIONS.  Please do not apologize for having one.

Respectfully,

Rick Bassett 

@bill_day 

If you need to, have a rest.

At times even I feel jaded/burnt, but then I realize that I really like the people in the sport, and, that FT renews constantly my faith in Humanity.

As the shadows of the future come closer, I also think that the very substantial preparation that FT could give to our youngsters would be an advantage when the SHTF.

Hope to see you somewhere, along the lanes!

HM

@hector_j_medina_g Rich and Hector, Thank you both very much for your words of encouragement. You have made me realize maybe I'm not quite ready to walk away from 18 years and 17 Nationals including Puerto Rico. There is no question to me I can do 25 targets in a match. Just a year or so ago we did 30 targets in one day in Ohio which was about a 6/7hour day. I may be a little week on the focus part but will do the best I can. I just field bad for the ones that will likely struggle or not attend just for another class to get more practice. Cheers, I hope we can meet again somewhere.

@bill_day 

That's the spirit!

In the end, if we do not challenge ourselves, we start to stagnate.

And we all know what happens to water when it stagnates.

😉

Hope to see you soon!

HM

Please see a clarification post from the AAFTA BOG on the Nationals format here

Thanks,

The AAFTA BOG