WFTF rules question re: knee pad use on a kneeling lane?

Absolutely...

Knee pads or other forms of padding or risers placed between
the arm, thigh, knee, leg and/or rifle may not exceed 2 inches in
thickness

Not on the knee that is on the ground.  The knee that is supporting you elbow, yes.

From the big book of rules ....

The World rules also allow kneepads on both knees (" One or two kneeling protectors are allowed") . 

George

As a match director, I supply a small car mat and knee roll for the kneeling lane. The mat is to keep your knee touching the ground free of mud and dirt. Looking at the Worlds photos, I think they do the same thing.

Thanks for the input and answers - 

Also didn't know any of the WFTF rules varied at all - thought that was the whole point?

I don't shoot WFTF but the forum has been so quiet lately that I am reading all posts. I found the response to Steve's question confusing and so I did some research. 

I believe Jame's response (ANGELIAUSA) is quoting the World Rules. The rules below are copied directly from the AAFTA 2018 rule book.

----------------------------------------------------------
WFTF Division Rules
The WFTF Division shall abide by the Common Division Rules
defined in this Handbook, as well as by the following rules.
Equipment
A. Rifles shall not exceed 12ft/lb of energy measured at the muzzle.
B. All forms of clothing are permissible.
C. No harnesses or straps are permitted.
D. Elbow pads and knee pads are allowed.
E. Butt-hooks are allowed, but not thigh-rests.
F. Adjustable rifle stocks are allowed, but no hardware may be
added or removed from the gun during the match, except where
allowed by the Match Director due to physical limitations of the
shooter.
G. The Digital Side Wheel (DSW) device is not allowed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 2 inch limitation on pads is for Hunter Class.  There is nothing in the description of  the kneeling position that mentions knee pads. If you combine the above with the description of the Kneeling position in the rule book I would conclude that knee pads are legal in WFTF.

Now does anyone else think that out new rule book is confusing, with rules scattered about all over the place? I think the rules are in serious need of a simplification.

Jim in Sacramento

Jim,

I can tell you with certainty that James is not quoting the World rules as they allow knee pads on both knees.  I am sure he will chime in and tell us where he got the rule quotation from( I assumed he got the quotation from the 2018 rulebook but  I went  and looked - just like you, I did not see what he quoted in the WFTF section )

http://www.world-field-target-federation.com/Rules

It was from the AAFTA Book of rules ....although it is an older edition ...I can't get the new rule book to download from the AAFTA site right now.

So no it's not Worlds WFTF relevant. Just USA AAFTA ....I think it's current but I might be wrong .. apologies if I am.

http://aafta.org/Assets/handbook/2018/AAFTA_Handbook_2018.pdf

Sorry James, the information you reference is nowhere to be found in the latest version of the rule book.  I agree with Steve, I always thought that the WFTF division followed the World Rules. This just re-enforces my point about the confusing state of the current AAFTA rules.

Jim in Sacramento

Without getting into the morass of the differences between WFTF and AAFTA/WFTF Division rules, I THINK that most MD's would agree to the following:

First of all, differentiate between protection for your knees that can be part of your attire/clothing and support elements for the rifle. Note that support elements for the shooter (hard elbow pads, hard inserts in gloves, waist movement restrictors/hockey kidney protectors, etc.) are NOT allowed. ANY support element has to be affixed to the rifle and it has to be listed on the allowed accessories listed under WFTF rules.

Once that difference is made, then you can pretty much be clear about what is legal and what is not. For example:

Purchase a pair of Fire-hose workpants from Duluth Trading Company and use their kneepad inserts inside the knee pockets provided. That is legal under any MD/Marshall inspection because they are fully flexible (no additional support provided) and are part of your clothing.

If you opt for industrial/construction style kneepads (roofers and floorers), you will get into trouble with a WFTF Marshall/MD because the "hard rubber/silicon" parts are deemed to offer 'Additional Support'. But this may not get you in trouble with an AAFTA official, because they are so prevalent, so common, so good, and cheap enough in the USA that they do NOT provide any "unfair advantage" to any shooter that decides to use them.

BUT, if you purchase the knee protectors that are designed for volleyball, or other sports, that are fully flexible, then you would be OK as far as WFTF officials are concerned also.

Hope this clarifies the differences between WFTF and WFTF Division (AAFTA) rules.

Keep well and shoot straight!

HM

Thanks Hector -

@angliausa 

Please let me know how thin the mat needs to be for keeping the right knee off the dirt when kneeling. Would a 1.5" thick kneeling pad (e.g., https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Kneeling-Pad-GD220568/321999865) be ok? I wear a knee brace on my right knee and mainly would like to keep it out of the dirt/mud when kneeling, but a little padding to soften hard ground/rocks/tree roots would be nice.

Thanks,

John

What division do you shoot in ?

2022 AAFTA rile book is here 

https://www.aafta.org/uploads/1/2/7/6/127666620/2023_aafta_official_field_target_rules.pdf

Page 10 - Under equipment - section D - states that knee pads are allowed.

Key thing to remember is that the pad be no more than 1" thick and conforms to your knee - rather than offering 'locked' in additional support - which might be perceived to give an unfair shooter advantage.

Regards James

@johnc 

John;

I'm not James, but my first impulse would be to ask what type of knee brace you use.

In GENERAL, ANY element that gives support is disallowed, however, MOST medical aids are allowed if you give your MD 24 hours notice. It can be an EMail, or a phone call, but you are supposed to let him know 24 hours in advance.

IF your knee brace has metal/hard parts and a hinge (such as those used for Arthritis), I would strongly recommend letting the MD know and then he will define what accommodations would be acceptable.

IF your knee brace is of the elastic bands type, some of them already incorporate a knee pad. Others use a hole to allow the rotula to move a little. In this case, I would suggest either a change of brace, or taking a kneeling pad made of material that is not more than 1" thick.

Lastly, remember you can take the kneeling shots standing, especially if there is a medical condition that warrants the use of a brace.

HTH, keep well and shoot straight!

HM

@hector_j_medina_g 

Hi Hector,

It's an elastic compression sleeve that helps with arthritis ( https://www.coppercompression.com/products/powerknit-knee-sleeve ). I'd like to avoid getting it dirty. I've seen FT shooters use small mats attached to their kneeling rolls so that they don't have to put their knee directly into the dirt and that seemed like a good solution. I just want to make sure that the mat is legal.

Thanks,

John

A THIN matt is legal, but you would need to cut one of those cheap Yoga Matts, or look for that type of material.

I do not know how competitive you are or what are your objectives, IF you are planning on shooting at the International level (and this is in no way derogatory of the other Divisions within AAFTA), then you need to plan ahead.

As far as domestic competitions (even GP's and Nationals), I doubt anyone would be too bothered by a small neoprene square, or strip, attached to your kneeling roll that extends to make your shooting position what it needs to be for YOU. IF you take two minutes to roll out the gizmo, you may receive some comments about taking too long to setup, but that does not mean it is not legal. 

In GENERAL, I would wear that copper compression sleeve under some pants, and then make sure that the MD is aware of that. And then I would simply, and naturally, roll out my personal "red carpet" in a quick and efficient manner.
Having it attached to the kneeling roll is a great idea if you add an arrow that points to the main axis of the lane  (that where there is least movement to tackle all targets in a lane). That will speed up your setup process and , if properly rehearsed and located, will allow you to get into your NSP/NPA in a jiffy. That speeds up the process and reduces the causes for complaints.

You could, also wear an additional knee-pad, like this:

https://www.amazon.com/McGuire-Nicholas-22382-Flooring-Kneepads/dp/B0009XU37S

NOT exactly this, but something like this, without any hard elements. That would keep the knee comfy and the trousers (and the brace), clean.

In any case, try to preclude the protests and complaints that always put the MD into a tight spot. Do advise the MD of your setup, whatever it is, in advance of the shooters' meeting. If he deems it correct, he will let everyone know that you have received special accommodations due to your medical condition.

As much as we all dislike "hair-splittig" rules, the truth is that they have been implemented slowly over time to regulate those "edge pushers" that always look for an unfair advantage.

Best of luck, keep us posted!

HM

@hector_j_medina_g 

Hi Hector,

Thanks for the detailed and helpful advice (the only kind I've ever gotten from you)! I like the yoga mat idea. I'm also thinking about getting rid of my left knee pad and resting the rifle directly on my knee while wearing pants with Top Grip rubber knee patches (like Tyler Patner uses). I'm not a big fan of knee pads as they keep shifting.

Thanks,

John

@johnc I do not think there are any sets of rules that allow you to rest the gun on your front knee for kneelers.  The gun must be held in you hand and the hand not be directly supported by the knee.  Most have the arm rested on the knee just above the wrist.  The wrist must be free to move, but there are positions to hold your hand that minimize movement.

@canadian-ft 

I THINK John C is still shooting a springer and he is referring to the free-position shots that can be taken from the sitting position, either resting on a crooked forearm, or on the knee.

IF I am right (and that is a distinct possibility), then my comment to John is that, for the most part Tyler P shoots PCP's, as such the direct placement of the rifle on the knee is no problem. For spring-piston shooting, it is a bit harder to accomplish because the vertical "jump" of each action is different and it is even different between power levels.

In this sense, when Tyler shoots spring-piston, I believe he uses a TX-200 that has a remarkably smooth action and a lack of vertical jump, especially when fitted with the "skinny pistons" now much in vogue. Not that the TX200 has a "fat piston", but in original form and with the original stock, it does exhibit some vertical jump.

The LGU's on the other hand, because of their architecture exhibit a particularly strong vertical jump. Especially in the original stock and power level. Custom stocks are designed much with this in mind, and that is how and why, shooters like Ken Hughes, Leo Gonzales, and Cameron Kerndt have opted for highly modified and specialized stocks, tunes, and even scopes and shooting positions.

Personally, I am not such a good shot, far from it. Too old to engage in substantial behavioural changes, LOL!  I still like traditionally shaped stocks (even if they are synthetic) and only concede the necessity of a hamster and an adjustable buttplate.
But I have to say that I do like my kneepad because the gel filling absorbs some of that vertical component we are talking about, and the specific shape of my kneepad (made many years ago and now discontinued), allows me to align rifle and knee to my NSP/NPA.

Depending on whether I am using my LGU or my D54, the forward hand grips the pad, or the rifle. Different strokes...

What keeps me forever interested in FT is that you never stop learning, you are always challenged by one factor or another. It may be a "Never-Ending Story", but then what would I do if I ever reach the end of the book????

😉

Keep well and shoot straight!

HM

@hector_j_medina_g Could be you are correct, Hector.  I just figured with the title of the thread, that John was referring to kneeling.

Tim

@hector_j_medina_g  Hector, FT target certainly can be a learning experience for sure but, what we learn one week could be easily forgotten a couple matches down the road and re-learning can be a vicious cycle for old minds. Staying in focus for a whole match is a huge task for my age group but never give up. When focus and shooting skills come together it is always a rewarding experience. Here is to hoping the best may be yet to come 😏. I know this reply has nothing to do with knee pads and kneeling but couldn't resist throwing in another factor that is higher on my list then forced positions.

@bill-day 

Hello Bill!

Thanks for following the thread. 

It's no secret that I have always found your perseverance inspirational, not only to me, but to others as well.

We're all getting on in years. And that is why I try to insist on creating "rituals": processes that become semi-automatic and preclude forgetting things that need to be done.
And yes, that has a lot to do with shooting positions.

Often I see shooters that just plop the bum-bag, or place the bucket down and follow no setup procedure to sit. Obviously, they start looking for the targets where they aren't. And then, without re-adjusting their position, take the shot. Even in the hunter class, that is more forgiving of the shooter's position (because the bi-pod is a great "insulator" of the body's heave's and ho's), it means most of the times a missed shot.
Down goes the mag ring to find the target and then up comes the mag to do the ranging, and then the shot goes off.... "tink!"

And so, practice under the EXACT same conditions as you are going to shoot is most important. Creating these "rituals" where everything follows the same "religious" order and therefore nothing gets left out, is important. Especially when under the stress of competition.

And this should apply even more to the "positionals".  Because they are the ones where the shooter's position matters most. I often clear my kneelers, and do not do badly on my standers, but it all starts with putting the bum-bag down in the proper orientation, starting the clock, ranging the targets, getting up, looking at the bum-bag's orientation (that defined my sitting position), and then shifting to the required position to shoot with the ranges in mind.
By doing this, I have been as efficient as I can with my time, and then I can think of the conditions in the field to decide the POA that I want to use.

Just a few weeks ago I was telling this to a South-African youngster that had not done too good on the first day and was disheartened. And when I said

"align the bum-bag to the lane axis, then place it in such a way that you can always sit on the bum-bag in exactly the same way, and when you get into position and the lift the gun to put your eye to the scope, the target is THERE"

his eyes lit up and went off to the sight-in range to exercise and test. He then marked his bum-bag with a white chalk line.

Next day he did much better.

Yes, we all are getting older and yes, more and more the B-F's take place, LOL! But we still have some value to offer to the sport, and it is always nice to see the veterans in the shoots.

Again, thanks for reading!

HM

@hector_j_medina_g 

Hector, While you guys were over there competing against the world I was talking to a gentlemen at the PYA Cup that was emphasizing  a setup routine before addressing the lane. He referenced WFTF shooter Gerald Long as his example. He said when Gerald address the lane he is about to shoot he positions his bum bag where he wants it then standing in front of it he crosses his legs and sits down on it. Every movement after that point is duplicated up to the point that the trigger is pulled and the Target drops.

I had the privileged to shoot with Gerald at I believe was his first National competition at the big Rain National at Will Piatts in SC 2015. He was shooting Open piston and after the end of the first day I told him how impressed I was with his springer abilities. He ended up winning his class and never looked back. Very talented disciplined air gun shooter that can prevail in any class. He is my pick to win the WFTF worlds next year and I'm sure he will put the work into to accomplish this task! 

Thanks for your reply, Bill