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Very disappointed to hear from clubs back here in the East that AAFTA has changed their rules on equipment failure.


Bill Day
(@bill-day)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 254
Topic starter  

The fact that we only have what is left on our lane time to fix a airgun that has malfunctioned  otherwise take Zero's for the rest of the match in my mind is another rule to piss people off and  especially to the hunter class who can not make any scope adjustments on the course. I have paid for my National registration ($165)  and will request Wayne to return my funds. If I had known of this this rule when I sent in my registration I would of never planned the trip. It cost to much money to travel to the big events to take risks under these BS rules. 

Wayne if you read this I would appreciate it if you would return my National registration.  Thank you, Bill Day 


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Knobs
(@knobs)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 152
 

I haven't looked at the new rule and compared it to the old one. Even worse, I have no idea what the old rule said in the first place. However, my personal expectation should I have an equipment failure during a match is that I'm just out of luck & I'm done for the day, unless it's something real simple that i might fix on the clock anyway.

I am curious what people think would be reasonable as I doubt you're the only guy talking about this. Should we stop the match for someone with a bad gun? For how long?


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blackswordshinobi
(@blackswordshinobi)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 125
 

the AAFTA rule might change but i never shot in any match i might go to match to see the rule nice post

 


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starkcontrast
(@starkcontrast)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 10
 

Im no expert about competitive sports, but I’m pretty sure if you’re in a race and your car breaks down or you wreck, you only have the remainder of the race to get your car running again so you can finish. I also believe that if your quarterback gets hurt and can’t play, you better have a replacement. Part of competition is about being prepared. 


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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
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More a gripe about near nothing ....

If your NOT prepared, equipment freshened up and ready for battle am left to ponder if your mindset is actually in the game ?

Don't take this as some sort of sarcastic remark, it is far from it !!     At a NATIONALS especially all present should be ready to go and not shooting a gun that has been un-serviced for a spell of time.  

If your a SERIOUS competitor you come with your A game and zero excuses.

 

 

IMO,

Scott S


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Paul Porch
(@paul-porch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 160
 

I see Bill's point about the time and travel... a lot if money in that cost.

However I also see the point if being prepared and haveing our equipment prepared. 

I used to carry a spare rifle when I first started competing. I usually attend 6 Grand Prix's a year, and did not want to have a bad weekend with a faulty gun. 

I stopped after a while and at the Cajun Classic in 2018, my elevation knob broke on my Sightron. I clamped it when closing the case on leaving. I should have checked it to see if it was damaged. My fault.

No spare, no good finish. I just chalked it up to "Oh well, It happens. 

Since I fly to Puerto Rico for their GP, each year, I don't have the luxury to carry a spare anything, let alone a gun. So it is critical I ensure my equipment is ready to go.  

I only took advantage of the old rule of fixing a rifle quickly at one of the local club matches. I fixed the issue fast but had a squad play through wwhileI did it.   

Is it fair to have my squad member(s) cool down waiting for me? I don't know,  but I can live with the new rule. I does just boil down to having your equipment and you, ready for the match. 

I believe that Starkcontrast has it right with the reference to other sports with cars and quaterbacks.

So I understand and respect Bill's reluctance to fly across country and worry about a rifle failure. But that's a personal choice. 

I think the rule is placed to ensure a quick and smooth match. With a increase in attendance at GPs and especially the Nationals, it seems prudent to keep the flow as seamless as possible. Just my opinion.

Paul

 

 


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Bill Day
(@bill-day)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 254
Topic starter  

It doesn't matter so much if you're at a local match but a competition that will cost one $1500 to $2000 there is a heck of a lot more hide in the game. Years back we were given the opportunity to bring a backup gun or even share a team members. With this new rule who and heck can fix a malfunction or seal failure on what is remaining on your shot clock otherwise take misses for the rest of the match. I didn't know this was or had been a actual issue in the past for the only two times I have had equipment issues and they were at a National in 2006 and a Grand Prix in 2018. Both occassions the group waited until I returned with my backup rifle. I told them to just continue and maybe I could make up any targets I didn't shoot at the end of the match. This fail and goodbye philosophy will turn more people off from the game.  Affta Clubs should of had some imput on this rule rather than just have it dropped in the rule book without any feedback but unfortunately and sadly this is how AFFTA operates.  


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Paul Porch
(@paul-porch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 160
 

Hmm, that could be a fix Bill.

Share a teammates gun for the remainder of the round. Then work on, or replace the rifle,if the first day of the match. I believe the rule does not state you can't do that....

That could be suggested as a  gentlemens rule among the clubs on this forum. 

As far as your issue with the clubs having input before rule changes.......this is a situation for the clubs to address, no?


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Tyler Patner
(@tyler-patner)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 34
 

Bill,

The intent behind this rule change was two fold. 

1) The previous rule left some ambiguity with regards to how much time a shooter had to fix/rectify an equipment issue. It could have been argued under the old rule that a shooter could pick back up where they left off on the course after fixing an issue, even if their squad was many lanes further down the course at that point.  Basically, the new rule says, if you have an issue that renders your gun inoperable and you cannot fix it on the line, you will get zeroes for the shots that you are unable to take as your squad moves through the course. 

2) It removes the possibility of a shooter that is merely unhappy with their equipment and not actually experiencing any malfunctions from switching to a backup gun on the same day of competition.  

Now, what this rule DOES NOT address is the possibility of moving to a backup gun or loaner gun for the second day of a competition if a malfunction occurs on the first day.  We will be adding some clarification to that for next year.  We (the BOG) do not want a shooter to miss out on day two of a competition (viewing each day of a GP as an individual match), so long as their loaner or backup gun conforms with the rules of their division/class and the change is approved by the match director.

As always Bill, if you have questions or want clarification on rule additions or changes, or if you want to propose changes for the future, you can email the BOG directly

Thanks

Tyler


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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@tyler-patner

 

Email sent. RSVP.

 

 

 

HM


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Rick Vaeth
(@rick)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 38
 

Excellent suggestion Paul, I would gladly share my gun with someone else. It would take them a little time getting used to the gun, but at least they would still be shooting, especially a 2 day tournament.


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Paul Porch
(@paul-porch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 160
 

Hi Rick,

I would hate to inconvenience another shooter, but if they voulenteered, I would accept. So much money and time invested at some GPs. Thats why I said it should be a gentleman's agreement among the clubs or the squad if that day even. 

Being at several expensive Grand Prixs trips, I know how frustrating it can be when things go wrong. 

I personally have offered a competitor to share my rifle, after he drove 6 hrs to get there. His March  scope died on our first lane and his first target!. Now that was bad. I insisted he shoot my rifle, but he just said he was teaching himself a lesson to ck his equipment before leaving.  He even stayed to score me, and enjoy the day. "THATS" a good attitude and very mature. 

(I don't know if i would be so gracious... Perhaps after a few curses under my breath) lol

 


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Rick Vaeth
(@rick)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 38
 

I would think shooting in the same classification, sharing a gun wouldn’t be a problem, as long as the gentleman was comfortable shooting someone else’s gun. As far as the scope, especially a March, I would agree the gentleman had a great attitude.


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Paul Porch
(@paul-porch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 160
 

Yeah, I was rt there sitting with my Thomas and March 8-80 thinking the same thing. 


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Bill Day
(@bill-day)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 254
Topic starter  

@motorhead (More a gripe about near nothing ....)

Scott, I personally don't know you but seeing your shooting at the AFFTA National in  Arizona in 2018 gave me a lot of respect for your shooting abilities. I also understand from this forum and AG Nation that you are a excellent Tuner of airguns. The difference between us is I have traveled to every National since 2006 excluding two ... 2007 and 2020. I have not seen you leave California too much. You may think I'm whinning but I see this new rule for how it will turn out. Equipment failure will happen to everyone sooner or later. The average competitor will understand this if they shoot long enough. If this new rule was designed to address cheating then why wasn't the cheating addressed rather than affect innocent shooters along the way.  We can't grow the game and treat shooters that travel to support the GP's and Nationals like cheaters. We are throwing respect for one another right out the window with this rule. The old rule allowed for some lee way when airguns go south. Chairman Partner in a e-mail I read spoke of shooters could just adjust their sights to get back in the game.  The hunter class are not allowed to touch our sights on the course. It's not fair to the hunter class but frankly that is how we have always been treated. When we're in serious competition the hunter class shooter has always got to go first and why? Many believe they think the hunter shooter will try to observe the open or WFTF class shooters scope marks to get a advantage. However,  I have had a few of those same shooters get pretty close to me when I'm shooting but that is ok and there is no rules against it.  I love this game but I can live without it especially when we get treated like 2nd class competitors.   

Bottom Line ..... We should be more interested in keeping those that have to travel for the GP's and Nationals in the game not making rules to eliminate them if bad luck knocks on their door!

 


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Bill Day
(@bill-day)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 254
Topic starter  

@tyler-patner

Tyler, In 2019 at the Cardinal camping area where PYA held the GP and Benchrest match. We had a target at about 28 yards with a one inch KZ that failed to fall for me and a respectable shooter that followed.

You were walking by and I asked you if you would check the target. You answered "I don't have time" and walked off the course. Maybe you won't remember it but I do and I did lose some respect for you that day.  It made me feel like going forward I would rather work around you then go through you. Sorry, but that is the way you made me feel.


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Tyler Patner
(@tyler-patner)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 34
 
Posted by: @bill-day

@tyler-patner

Tyler, In 2019 at the Cardinal camping area where PYA held the GP and Benchrest match. We had a target at about 28 yards with a one inch KZ that failed to fall for me and a respectable shooter that followed.

You were walking by and I asked you if you would check the target. You answered "I don't have time" and walked off the course. Maybe you won't remember it but I do and I did lose some respect for you that day.  It made me feel like going forward I would rather work around you then go through you. Sorry, but that is the way you made me feel.

I do remember that @bill-day.  I even remember the target in question, it was a medium size bird target if memory serves.  And what I told you was to mark it a P if you feel it had an issue (the rules at the time) and I would check it after the match.  In fact, a few groups after you, I had another shooter question the same target, so I called a cold line and tested the target with a target checker and it fell over just fine. I stopped and watched folks shoot that target a number of times through the day.  I also tested it again at the end of the match, and it still fell.  Good thing for both of us, the rules have been changed now and targets get tested on the spot. I think that will help all parties involved in resolving target issues. 

If I did say something to upset you at some point in the many years we've known each other, I'm not sure why you've waited until now to address it...or why you didn't do so in person. That aside, I would hope you understand that if you have an issue with the rules, it's best to bring it to the attention of the BOG as a whole.  I am just one person on the board, we have 5 other Governors and we all take part in rules discussions to determine what we feel is the best path forward. And the proper way to do that is to email us (as a few others have done on this particular topic). I know you know the address. 

All the best, 

Tyler


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Bill Day
(@bill-day)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 254
Topic starter  

Tyler, The new rule is a great idea but at times it could be hard on the Field marshalls. The first and only GP I shot this year I thought it worked very well and far less calls for a Marshall than I anticpated.

In the past I have always dealt with the Chairman and not the bog as a whole.  Since I have your attention maybe you could answer one question for me and please do check with the Bog if you have to. Why can't open discussion between the BOG and paying member clubs take place before a rule is just put in place with no club member input. Then it wouldn't be a surprise or piss some clubs members off if they felt part of the game?


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Tyler Patner
(@tyler-patner)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 34
 

@bill-day

At least in my tenure on the BOG (so the last 6 years), most of the correspondence between the BOG and clubs or individuals is taken care of by the Chairman. Typically, what is happening behind the scenes is a discussion amongst the BOG members, which is usually why it takes some time to formalize a response to the club or individual. So while it may have appeared you were dealing with the Chairman, you are in essence dealing with the BOG as a whole.

A lot of these topics are discussed at the Nationals meetings, but of course, that didn't happen last year. There are currently 40+ clubs, which can make that communication difficult. But there's no reason open discussion cannot take place Bill, the burden of communication falls both ways though. When the new rule book changes were published, an email was sent to clubs with a copy of the rule book and some details on the changes among other things. Last I checked, we received emails back from 4 clubs, most of which had nothing to do with the rule changes. That was in February, before the season was underway. There was plenty of time for clubs to inquire or create a dialog with the BOG regarding changes they may have had issues with and there was even time to make alterations if necessary. It wasn't until the middle of last month that we heard anything from any individuals or clubs about this particular change.  How are we to know that folks are taking issue with a change, if it's not communicated?  I hope you see what I am saying about communication being a two way street.  I'm not complaining, just trying to make a point. 

And just for the sake of openness, when someone did reach out for clarification on this particular change, the BOG discussed, and agreed we could do a better job of clarifying the new rule, and will address it in the 2022 rule book.  We also just received some more suggestions from @hector-j-medina-g that will help us to get it right. It's not a perfect process, but nothing ever is.  

So like I said before, if you have an issue with a rule change or see the need for a rule change, all you need to do is email the BOG. If you want to, you can even cc the clubs email on your change proposals...that ensures that all club reps have an opportunity to be a part of the process. While that doesn't mean your changes or proposals will be adopted or made, that's how you (and all clubs) can be a part of the process and help create open communication.  

Tyler

 


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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I feel that we should look at this experience in a pro-active way.

The Clubs have always complained about not having a more "open & transparent" AAFTA.

And the BOG's has always complained that the Clubs do not pay attention to the "course of business" until a problem arises.

In the end Tyler hits the KZ when he says that communication needs to go both ways.

IF we are to learn and improve upon our experiences, I would suggest that now, post CoViD-19, when everyone is used to remote gatherings (whether Zoom, Teams, Meet, or any other platform), the BOG agrees to hold some periodic, scheduled, webinar/meeting with all 40 clubs. If someone does not assist, then it is the Club's problem and it will be for the Club's members to take action. But at least the openness and transparency will be there.

A quarterly meeting would, in the end, save time because we wouldn't be discussing things that are past. And discussing things between 40 can be a nightmare, but by doing it we would all be saving a lot of keyboard time.

Yes we all have lives but, sometimes, dedicating the time at the right moment can save a lot of work down the road, sort of like "an ounce of prevention vs. . . . ."

 

As to the comments from Wayne and Scott (either come prepared or resign yourself to not whine) I would agree completely but, while Wayne and Scott are right, they are not taking into account the lower reliability of the equipment of Spring-piston shooters. The rule has to be even and enforced on EVERYONE, and so, more clarity and precision is needed so that, while allowing SOME leeway and remedies, will still prevent "creative pushing of the limits".

 

I am sure the BOG's will do its best to revise the whole issue and, with the coming into mainstream of remote meetings, the BOG's can also simplify everyone's life.

Let's stay focused and positive and support all the shooters in the sport we all love, regardless of their powerplant.

 

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

 

 

HM


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Knobs
(@knobs)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 152
 

@hector-j-medina-g

 

that’s a great suggestion. Keep in mind that for it to be effective the bylaws would need to be changed.

 

keith


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Pzhills
(@paul-in-zhills)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 71
 

I think a lot of the rules are just plain chickens---t.  


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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@knobs

I am sure the By-laws did not contemplate CoViD-19.  ;-). Heck humanity didn't contemplate CoViD-19, but we're here and IF we are to adapt and move forward, we will need to make changes, some of them drastic. IF we handle this correctly, this pandemic thing will teach us how to be a more effective and efficient species.

If we don't well, the next one will wipe us out; problem solved! LOL!

Actually, getting serious, I am sure the BOG's and the Clubs would be MORE THAN AMMENABLE to such a change.

And I am not so sure that we are talking here about having the  YEARLY ASSEMBLY/VOTING remotely. What we are talking here is having INFORMATIVE sessions (I wrote Webinars/Meetings, not Assemblies) remotely and quarterly, so that things could be discussed in a more opportune manner PRIOR to adopting a ruling on something.

Anyway, it is just a proposal. My Mother in Law is now an expert at Zoom because she simply didn't resign herself to miss on her grandchildren's events. I cannot imagine all the people here that are so adept at the keyboard to not be able to get to a remote meeting.

😉

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

 

HM

 


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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@paul-in-zhills 

I don't know how long you have been shooting FT.
I've been at this for 21 years.

When I started, there were 12 rules, they were called the "Core" rules and, outside of these, anyone could do anything.

BUT . . .

Rules have been added as the situations have demanded them. As more people participate (there are now over 40 countries with more than 30,000 shooters worldwide) and, some, get too "creative".

The BOG's are volunteers that do their best to keep the game in order, fair, and square. They look after the SPIRIT of the sport and they have the unenviable task of dealing with C-S persons. You ARE entitled to think/feel whatever you want, but if you feel so strongly, then look for another sport where you can have your needs met more effectively. An FT Match is, usually, a meeting of happy people. And the best thing about FT are the people that participate.

Having said that, I do agree partially with you. Paraphrasing a long standing tenet of mine:

The ONLY Chickens___t rule is the one NOT ENFORCED.

😉

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

 

HM


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Tyler Patner
(@tyler-patner)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 34
 

@knobs

What I think (and read) @hector-j-medina-g suggesting was meetings with the clubs and the BOG to discuss any hot topics or issues that may pop up over the course of the season. This would be in addition to the clubs ability to email the BOG with issues or topics they'd like clarification on, etc.  It would give the clubs and the BOG an opportunity to interface with one another, and to some extent, allow an exchange of opinions we do not see right now outside of the Nationals meeting.  

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas! Much appreciated. 

Tyler


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Paul Porch
(@paul-porch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 160
 

Hector, you have a valid point. For years on the old Yellow Forum there were so many behind the screen dog fights over the AAFTA rules and poo pooing the BOG. 

I being one of them when I first started. Since that time I have reserved nmyself  to addressing the BOG directly.

if I needed sometthing brought to their attention, i would go direct for the issue.

Most recently was the targets being thrown out issue, affecting the entire field of shooters. A problem that has affected all of us since I started. 

As you see that is no longer a problem. My solution was added to the 2021 rules. I simply queried several different clubs with my idea, and when it met acceptance by each I talked to, I then proposed it to the BOG. I don't know what procedure they used from there for implementing. 

Your idea of a quarterly media meeting, or even a twice a year meeting, prior the the Nationals meeting is sound. It could go a long way to avoid any miscommunications and public bitching. 

 


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Paul Porch
(@paul-porch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 160
 

Ha, just sent my response and your's hit as  I sent mine Tyler.... 


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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
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Perhaps the only FAIR too all way in addressing equipment failure and continuing the match would be to emulate other sports where the competitor are moving. making laps, taking turns etc ....

 

That being perhaps THAT IF a competitor has a mechanical issue, HIS PARTNER joins the following squad as to remain objectively scored.  Person with mechanical issue allowed to leave and go fix or replace the problem equipment.  Before returning to competition have there fix or replacement approved by an assigned RSO or equivalent. Then go back with his previous squad mate and resume shooting AT WHAT EVER lane they are now addressing.

This temporary ( Say 3 man squad ) will be slower for a spell and a lane gap should still be present to reinsert the squad after the fix/replacement is made.

 

* As to a legitimate RESHOOT of targets passed by during said problems ? .... Slippery slope there and would need a miens to fairly STOP said shooters scoring and allow a fix.

If an equipment issue is noted and competitor keeps shooting .. Tough luck.  Only at such time when "WE HAVE A PROBLEM" being stated to a range officer would said shooters SHORE AS SHOT be finalized to where on course there at, and via the same range officer PICK UP again at the lane where the squad has moved onto.  a RESHOOT of targets passed by I won't get into here for my feelings are not aligned with most and past practices.

 

 

Personally don't know of any sport that when a competitor is unable to make his heat / race / match etc, they get to REDO what they missed out on ? .... best case is they rejoin where everyone else is at, if allowed to even do that ?

 

In the case of those CHOOSING TO shoot a less reliable air gun, poorer quality, etc etc ( Add what ever descriptive word you like )   It is THERE CHOICE in doing so and must IMO also take the responsibility and OWN IT when something fails unexpectedly.   Hell.... even Great gear fails and there again it is simply Bad Luck and Unfortunate.

 

Scott S


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Knobs
(@knobs)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 152
 

@tyler-patner

Talk is fine. It doesn't hurt.

 In my experience through the years frustration is caused by a lack of results. (And I'm not taking a shot at the BOG or anyone past or present who has served)

Since we don't document and archive discussions it's my belief that the annual cycle of change in the bylaws is too slow. It lends itself to flawed memory retention over a years cycle. 

I'm also aware that  there's a good chance that I'm the only guy in AAFTA who sees it that way. I'm not going to let that ruin my day either LOL.

 

K


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Pzhills
(@paul-in-zhills)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 71
 

Case in point.  I shoot a RAW HM1000 with a bottle in HFT.  The stock is rather short and the bottle is exposed.  To protect the bottle and the rifle from dropping it if it slides off the bipod, I installed a stock extension.  There is no rule about how long or short a rifle stock must be, but, since my extension is notched, the rule says that it must not cling to the bipod if the rifle is lifted (it doesn't) and the rifle must be free to slide back and forth, so I the notch is illegal.  Regardless, the rifle is free to move back and forth freely along with the bipod, so what is this rule trying to do?  One of the older AAFTA gurus told me that with my setup, I could use this system to gain stability by pushing against my notch, or some such thing.  Get a life guys!  If I'm getting any benefit from this, I sure fail to see it.  This is a prime example of a rule that was probably hatched because some guy showed up at a match and beat everyone else.  Guess what?  It's the Indian, not the arrow.

 

HM1000 Stock extension

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Paul Porch
(@paul-porch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 160
 

Paul, the rule also states you can have a stop, like a sling stud to rest the stock against. There is a photo in the rule book showing this. 

Most hunter shooters I see use this. On the occasion  I switch to hunter class for a local match, that's what I use. Works fine on a metal stock Thomas and a wood stock AA S400.  Your notch looks like it restricts any forward and back movement depending on the thickness of your bipod.  That might be an issue of contention to to the rule. 

Also if the bipod doesn't have a swivel, the thickness can restrict the pivoting movement to aid is getting it steady. Just trying to interpret the look of the notch to the intent of  the rule. 


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Paul Porch
(@paul-porch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 160
 

@paul-in-zhills

Paul, the rule also states you can have a stop, like a sling stud to rest the stock against. There is a photo in the rule book showing this. 

Most hunter shooters I see use this. On the occasion  I switch to hunter class for a local match, that's what I use. Works fine on a metal stock Thomas and a wood stock AA S400.  Your notch looks like it restricts any forward and back movement depending on the thickness of your bipod.  That might be an issue of contention to to the rule. 

Also if the bipod doesn't have a swivel, the thickness can restrict the pivoting movement to aid is getting it steady. Just trying to interpret the look of the notch to the intent of  the rule. 


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Jim in SoCal
(@jim-in-socal)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 12
 

For the BOG and reps of the clubs.  Why not do a zoom meeting a couple of times a year.  No one has to travel, or leave their homes, and a good chance for some face to face time for the BOG and the duly selected rep for each member club.  Might add a little transparency to the process.


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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Posts: 651
 

@paul-in-zhills 

I really do not want to hi-jack the thread to tell you all the "things" that spawned the current rules, if you open a new thread, I will gladly answer there with what I know went on in previous years that brought the changes to Hunter Division, the BOG's of the past, and the present, have done their best to preserve the spirit of FT for the current sportspersons. No one is perfect, but they ARE good people doing a good job. So, if you really want to discuss WHY the rules are what they are, and because the current BOG has neither the time nor the obligation to the shooters at large, open a new thread and let's discuss OPENLY why the rules are what they are.

So, getting back on track;

This post is to, at least once, make you read the WHOLE of the rule, and it states:

"C. Only monopods, shooting sticks, or bipods may be used. Any such aids must rest on the ground
and may not be driven or otherwise embedded into the ground or shooting pad, and cannot be
attached to the gun: must release from the gun as the gun is picked up, and must not connect to
the gun with studs or devices that restrict gun movement. A single stop may be used in front or
behind the gun support, but no other anchoring mechanisms are permitted"

To EMPHASIZE: Rule CLEARLY STATES:

"A single stop may be used in front or behind the gun support..."

So, you can use your "bottle protector" as long as you remove one of the stops.

AND, as long as it ALSO follows/complies with the rule about fore end depth (since your bottle protector is screwed into the fore end it has become part of it):

"B. Fore end depth is limited to a maximum of 6 inches, measured from the center of the barrel to the
lowest part of the rifle forward of the pistol grip."

In YOUR case, that would be the tip of the remaining stop once the other stop was removed.

 

In MANY rule books, one WRITTEN rule is that it is the COMPETITOR'S responsibility to KNOW and FOLLOW the rules. So far that rule is not in the AAFTA handbook, but perhaps it should be written into it and enforced?

IF an MD does not enforce a rule on a shooter, he is doing a dis-service to the sport because those shooters that DO follow the rules are being slighted and offended.
For the sake of the peace in a Match, MD's often issue "one time warnings", but a warning is that. It should not be interpreted as an exemption from the rules.

Ignorance of the rules is not an exemption from following the rules.

To finish, I repeat: The ONLY CH - - T rule is the one not enforced".

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM


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Bill Day
(@bill-day)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 254
Topic starter  

@hector-j-medina-g 

Good post Hector, I agree with your position about rules being enforced.  Maybe, requests to the BOG is a good idea. Dealing with former chairman has only led to broken promises and I sincerely mean that. I can not stand being lied to and when I get total assurance that the following year after a full year of a trial class called the unlimited class turns out very positive we get absolutely ZIPPO! Either the head of AFFTA  was a Bullshit Artist or the Bog is controlling the Chairman.  It took AFFTA almost 15 years to band one of the best Hunter FT shooters I have ever shot with. No names mentioned! I always thought the one banned for cheating was just a rule pusher. He was talented enough to not need to cheat. The second day of the Michigan 2015 Nationals results prove that not to mention he is the only one to claim two National Hunter FT Championships. However, the first day of the nationals he was apparently squaded with a member of his group that was out to get him. It had been known since 2008 that this individual pushed the rules. Sad it had to take someone from within the game to bring him down. Frankly, the BOG has always been proficient in making the rules but low on the scale of enforcement. If the evidence  wasn't so substantial he probably would still be shooting. 

Just last weekend at a FT match in New York a Top Hunter field target shooter failed to tighten a screw on his scope that led to him having to disqualifying himself. This match was likely close enough to travel to be only a lesson. Had this happened in 2021 in Morrow Bay it would of hurt a lot more. To be totally disqualified when his lane timer alarm went off as the new equipment rule was explained to me if he didn't feel pain I would of felt it for him. We all should be accountable to the same rules and I guess if it is a one size fits all rule and the majority of clubs are in favor of it than the majority should rule. That has always been my stand and always will be.


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 651
 

Dear Bill;

Thanks for your post. I've known you some time and I know what you are made of. You have my full respect.

A GENERAL problem with sports that are all-volunteer is that volunteers are also friends of all who shoot.

AND "We the People", in general, tend to be nice and want to be nice. There are a few, always, that want to be at the top. At the top of whatever they do. Problem is that we do not teach our kids to be proud of WHO THEY ARE, the emphasis being for most on what they have. And, so,  it is more important to have the wall-plaque that says you are a champion, than to behave in true sportsmanlike fashion.

To teach this to our kids, we would need to change almost the level of societal focus on materialism, it's not impossible and we SHOULD do it, but the decision is individual to each family and the change is not going to be quick, let alone instant.

We also need to understand that being "nice" means being EVEN. Rules (the same as laws) are not always fair and just. What is fair and just is the even enforcement of the rules or laws. Humans cannot go further than that.

And, so, in an environment of friends, MD's feel bad about enforcing the rules in a strict manner. I've been criticized (more than once, LOL!) for enforcing rules as they are written. Being an MD is not my preferred job, but I will do it if called upon. At least once in every match someone asks me to explain X, Y or Z rule. Sometimes they like it, sometimes they don't, but my service to the sport is to explain exactly what the rule means. Even if they get a little mad.

We should think that FT, as a sport, is greater than any individual, and Chairmans will come and go, but the Sport must grow and thrive. And for this we NEED rules to keep everyone on the "straight and narrow" even if they don't want to. AND we NEED to enforce those rules.

I will not discuss the person in question, I shot with him more than a few times so I know what "made him tick", I wouldn't disagree with you that he was talented at shooting, but he was not MOTIVATED by the shooting, what drew him to the shoots and to FT was how easy it was to obtain unfair advantages because we had, back then, so few rules. The sport evolved and he got kicked out, under the added rules, for unsportsmanlike conduct. Simple and easy. A rule enforced, nothing more, nothing less.

If we had had more rules, OR if we had developed the procedures to enforce the SPIRIT of the rules, perhaps we could have avoided the ban. But then he would have lost interest in FT and returned to his other endeavours (as he did).

We are where we are, and AAFTA, with ALL its flaws and problems, has still managed to keep FT together. All around the world, the FT sport is divided in two. And we all know that sports thrive on numbers.

Sorry for the long post, but it was necessary to frame the response to Scott.

Scott.-

I've been considering very carefully how to address your "dissing" of spring-piston shooters, even though you earn money out of us.

And so, hoping you do not take it the wrong way, I will say just this:

Of ALL the World's FT Matches that there have been, the ONLY THREE TEAM Medals have been won by the USA Springer Teams (2nd @ New Zealand, 1st @ Poland, 2nd @ England).

The rules have to be "enabling" for everyone, regardless of their choice of powerplant; setting up rules that would be partial to the PCP shooters would be a dis-service to the sport and to the USA-FT in general.

Yes, we CHOOSE the challenge of spring-piston rifles, and YES, we take responsibility and OWN up to our decisions.

And the proof is in the results.

 

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

HM


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Knobs
(@knobs)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 152
 

@bill-day 

I'm retired & have plenty of time to contribute to this post, but I think I'm going to go shooting & have some fun.

 

K


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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 207
 

Hector,

If your speaking to THIS Scott ? ....... Dissing springers REALLY ?      Your skins too thin if you read YOUR CHOOSING to shoot a less reliable and consistent gun while being a free choice one makes having the highest likelihood of something going amiss as a Diss ... WOW

It is a FACT that is indisputable.  if simply stating such is somehow viewed as a attitude or something else you would be greatly mistaken.

 

So in that statement of the American worlds squad .... Just spent last saturday shooting with one of that squads members in Nevada.  That individual shot a FANTASTIC match only to have 24 hours pass, a few degress warmer on Sunday and all i heard was my TX lost 35 fps for no aspirant reason ? and his score and ability to shoot at his potential went out the window !!

 

While I hear you, i reject any argument you may wish to air.

 

I'm done with this silly thread.

 

Scott S


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Chris C.
(@ncairgunner)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 82
 

Bill, I apologize for being a day late to the conversation. For those of you that attended the BoG meeting at the 2019 Nationals, you know that we stated that we would be making changes to the rule book. I volunteered to complete this task for AAFTA. Yes, I know that wasn't smart. LOL!!! When I sat down to revise the rules, i had about 8-10 emails from members with complaints or concerns about specific rules.  Their concerns was thoroughly looked at and if it was determined to be a valid concern, it was implemented in the new rules. If it wasn't warranted or I felt like it was covered well enough by existing rules, it wasn't used. I'm proud to say that about 80% of the suggestions were incorporated. The other changes were to simplify / clarify other rules. The old rule book was disjointed at the least. I finished the rules revision on 1/7/2020. I emailed it to the BoG for review/discussion. Long story short, trying to have discussions when most of the BoG works full time, is like herding kitty cats. Then Covid 19 totally disrupted everything. Thus the rules did not get implemented until this year. Tyler is correct that we sent a copy to every club for review. We didn't get any negative feedback.

Now at the 2021 Carolina Classic , Greg Shirhall questioned the malfunction rule. He didn't like not being able to use a back up rifle. I replied that was not the case with the rule change since I was the one who wrote. So I broke out the rule book and read the rule. I saw exactly how Greg got that interpretation. I'm not a professional writer & I / we the BoG, missed this error. I actually told Greg that if he had a failure that as MD, I would have allowed a back up gun as long as it passed the chrony. I then asked Greg to submit this in an email to the BoG so that we could discuss it as a group. We had that discussion this week & an update to the rule will be forth coming. So if your rifle goes wonky during a GP on Saturday's match, you can repair it. But during your repair time , your squad will continue to shoot & you will receive 0's until your rifle is repaired & you can resume shooting. Now if your rifle can't be repaired, I hate it for you but you are done for that day's match. But come Sunday, you can notify the MD & if your back up / replacement rifle passes the chrony test, you are good to go for Sundays match. I think that is very fair to everyone. Trust me, I would have hated for you or anyone that traveled to shoot the Carolina Classic not to be able to compete on the second day. I know how much time, money, & effort that it takes to attend a GP. I truly appreciate every last shooter that came down & supported THAGC for the past two Carolina Classics & hope all of you warrant us worthy of your company at next years match. 

So yes, I botched the wording on the rule. When I read it, my mind interpreted it differently than what was actually written. Myself & the BoG are only human & we make mistakes. But it has been brought to our attention & it is being corrected. 

Bill, I consider you a friend & if you ever have a question or concern, please feel free to call me(I think you have my cell #) or shoot me an email. 

To all the Dads, Happy Father's Day!!!  

 


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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 207
 

Chris,

 

written and with a RESOLVE as it should be.

 

Thank you


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Chris C.
(@ncairgunner)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 82
 

@motorhead , Thanks !!!


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Wayne Burns
(@wayne-burns)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 190
 

Chris C.

I'm wonder why the shooter can't use the replacement equipment to finish out the day on Saturday.  If equipment fails and can't quickly be repaired, what is wrong with the MD noting that the equipment has truly failed and the shooter is not just wanting to shoot another piece of equipment, and then allowing the shooter to use a replacement to finish the match Saturday and Sunday.

 

I agree the shooter should not hold up the match and should get zeros for all the targets they missed while getting the equipment repaired or replaced.

 

I'd really like to settle this long before the upcoming Nationals in Morro Bay.

 

Wayne Burns,

Match Director,

2021 AAFTA National Championships


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