Three guys tie at the end of a match, takes another 1/2 hour for the field to finish. Guns are all packed away and guys want to get on the road home. Would you have a shoot off between those three and make everyone wait or would you decide the winner some other way? ( I know how AAFTA does it....this was just a local match.) I went with best score on the 1 off-hand lane and now I'm not sure if that was fair. ?Learning as we go...
In general, I think if you have people in your local match who want to compete in GP's and Nats then I think you owe it to them to do tie breakers/shoot-offs. It's valuable experience of shooting under pressure. If you have people who just want to get on the road, which I understand, I wouldn't take the time to figure out the tie break at a later match.
Shoot-offs for GP/Nats practice are fine. But for monthly matches -- especially on a HOT August day when all want to scurry home -- we sometimes determine who performed best in the forced lanes to break ties. Just so those who think it's important to establish a pecking order go home satisfied (or not).
I'm sure some may not like the idea, and you may question your decision to use it, Doug. But Standing and Kneeling lanes are there in the first place to create differential scores anyway. So why not use them as intended (either to separate scores during a match to avoid ties, or to break ties after)? All the same to me.
Hello Doug!
I can tell you the three different ways (apart from the AAFTA method) some of the MD's of the MML used to decide Ties:
a) Use longest miss-free string of shots.
b) Designate a tie-breaker lane
c) Designate a tie-breaker target and then two or three follow-up targets.
Any and all of these has its advantages and disadvantages, but it was general policy to announce the method BEFORE the match. In that way, everyone knew in advance what to put emphasis on (or not).
Personally, I think and believe that local matches are, for many, practice matches. And so, using the established AAFTA method is important. This emphasizes the need for the whole field to move closely together because in a small (20 shooters or less) AAFTA match with timers, where they are really used and people do not dilly-dally between lanes, there cannot be a big delay between those that finish first and those that finish last, so the basis of your problem is eliminated. It also stresses the importance of having a quick checking/totaling of the scores, so that shootoffs can be held directly.
Let me present two extreme examples:
At one Nationals, I had to forfeit the shootoff between 3rd and 4th because I had a plane to catch and after waiting 3 1/2 hours, the total scores were still unknown.
At this year's Nationals, the total scores were posted in less than 15 minutes. And shootoffs were being carried while some shooters were still getting over the workout, let alone even thinking about packing their gear.
I think it should go without saying, but just to put forward the full picture: In a match with no target malfunctions, final scores are quicker and easier to tally. So this also plays a part.
Shootoffs are a reality of life and if you don't help your constituency to train for them they will be flustered and nervous when they NEED to be in one,and they will not have the experience to take them in stride.
Just my opinion.
HM
PS.- I still have your Hawke Nautilus'es, please let me know if you want them.
Hello Doug!
I can tell you the three different ways (apart from the AAFTA method) some of the MD's of the MML used to decide Ties:
a) Use longest miss-free string of shots.
b) Designate a tie-breaker lane
c) Designate a tie-breaker target and then two or three follow-up targets.
Any and all of these has its advantages and disadvantages, but it was general policy to announce the method BEFORE the match. In that way, everyone knew in advance what to put emphasis on (or not).
Personally, I think and believe that local matches are, for many, practice matches. And so, using the established AAFTA method is important. This emphasizes the need for the whole field to move closely together because in a small (20 shooters or less) AAFTA match with timers, where they are really used and people do not dilly-dally between lanes, there cannot be a big delay between those that finish first and those that finish last, so the basis of your problem is eliminated. It also stresses the importance of having a quick checking/totaling of the scores, so that shootoffs can be held directly.
Let me present two extreme examples:
At one Nationals, I had to forfeit the shootoff between 3rd and 4th because I had a plane to catch and after waiting 3 1/2 hours, the total scores were still unknown.
At this year's Nationals, the total scores were posted in less than 15 minutes. And shootoffs were being carried while some shooters were still getting over the workout, let alone even thinking about packing their gear.
I think it should go without saying, but just to put forward the full picture: In a match with no target malfunctions, final scores are quicker and easier to tally. So this also plays a part.
Shootoffs are a reality of life and if you don't help your constituency to train for them they will be flustered and nervous when they NEED to be in one,and they will not have the experience to take them in stride.
Just my opinion.
HM
PS.- I still have your Hawke Nautilus'es, please let me know if you want them.
Thank you everyone for your opinions and advice. Problem was I never stated in the shooter meeting how we would address a tie....wasn't even considering a 3 way tie. When I realized there may be a tie as myself and another competitor were finishing in the lanes next to each other, I asked two seasoned field target shooters how I should handle a tie. The answer was the standing lane. I am not putting it on them as it was my neglect in not establishing that system at the shooters meeting. I should have stated from the start that neither of the other two shooters has complained or even so much as frowned at the final results. I shoot with and against these guys every shoot. Both great guys. All three of us were shooting at our best and I just want the results of the competition to be fair for everyone. From now on I will state the tie breaker system at the shooters meeting. For this competition I like the idea of having a shoot off at the next competition to decide the winner. Thanks again everyone for chiming in, I am just trying to get it right. As I said....learning as we go.
Doug B.
Yes Hector I do want those scope wheels. Wasn't sure if you got my emails.
Hey Doug, you guys always set up a great shoot. As far as tie breakers are concerned you could flip a coin, it wouldn't make any difference to me. When I attend these matches the only person I have to beat is me. I just push myself to do a little better then last time. Having fun and meeting new people is were I'm at. Think when it gets to be high pressure, some of the fun goes out of it. Keep doing what your doing, I'm having a ball. Thanks for all your hard work.
Tom
Doug/Tom,
Indeed, Craig DOES feel the same.....and were it not for a senior moment/brain fart of double shooting the very first target our 3-way tie might have been eliminated. Oh well, that's another lesson to hang onto. Pay attention to the rules of the match at hand instead of the one you shot the day before. I do like the challenge of the single-shot format in numerical order. Besides any day to get out and shoot amongst friends is a good day and better than most others. Thanks again for the efforts to make these events happen.
Craig
Geez I would rather flip a coin than shoot offhand again. The worst offhand shooter in history Jeff C I forgot its pretty common for me to wait 30-45 minutes for the filed to finish so I can help pick up. That makes my drive home real nice on the saturday shoots but you know me I don't complain.
Scott, if l understand your reasoning, there is no need to use score cards. Just hang out and shoot for fun. Don
Then you don’t understand my reasoning. Score cards are used to determine performance over the course of fire. Tie-breakers are used to determine who gets which prize/award.
AAFTA Common Division rules, page 22:
“Tied Scores
In the event of two (2) or more shooters tying for an award, a shoot-off or other tie-breaking system will take place.”
There were lots of shoot-offs at the Nationals this year, but only for places that had an AAFTA award at stake.
I guess that you can have some kind of tie-breaker strictly for bragging rights if you really want to. But the rules only require it for placings that have awards.
I agree with Don; specifically with his point that you can't get enough practice for shoot-offs, so should take every opportunity to do so. But I also with his point, "This is only if the people that tie want it." IF SO, the Match Director should be beholden to accommodate.
BTW and FWIW, anyone that knows me also knows I don't mind being a d##k.
