The yellow has long supported FT with its own page (green and now yellow subforum) and we are guests here as we are on any other web forum.
Per Pat's original question, I don't think anyone is missing, I just think there are other options available and there are many who come here for news and info that don't post frequently.
Yes, AAFTA has an FT forum but it has never taken off, maybe that will change as the BOG works to re-design the AAFTA website. I would like to see the AAFTA forum get more traffic and the BOG will be working to do that, but it doesn't mean the door should close on the yellow.
I'm not sure what it is but there seems to be a general malaise in the field target community. The lack of activity on this forum is not unique. The GTA and AGN field target forums are showing the same lack of activity. The activity on the AAFTA forums is nonexistent, really, nonexistent!
I miss the old Yellow format, I think the way threads and posts were listed and formatted made it very easy to spot something of interest, read the post and respond. I find the AGW forums difficult to navigate and identify new posts and tedious to respond.
I also find it sad that that there is so little traffic from AAFTA trying to stir interest in our sport. I see Pyramyd, AOA and Crosman sponsoring FT matches with great success and fanfare. They actually award prizes to the shooters as opposed to a plaque or medal. Some food for thought perhaps?
Jim in Sacramento
Jim, I would add to that by saying that nothing prevents anyone from promoting FT on the forums, facebook, nationally and locally. AAFTA is an association of clubs. Every one of those clubs has committed leaders and members who want to see the sport grow. We all can do our part to bring in people.
There was no lack of enthusiasm at the nationals this year or at the GP's or our local matches. Don't mistake the absence of FT controversy on the internet this year for malaise among the participants.
Scott's last statement is correct. Over the years we have hashed out a lot of different opinions some of which we have worked out and others we will continue to disagree on but we all remain active and participate. I have met a lot of shooters in FT that I agree with and some I do not but consider them ALL to be friends. I suspect that most of us would rather shoot than debate. That was evident this last weekend. Here in the northeast we have continued to add venues as well as pick up a few new shooters. We try to focus our energy into shooting and running good matches. The fact that debate and drama are down in our sport is a good thing, I think.
I don't see anything in my post that mentions debate, drama or controversy. I was referring to the fact that there is no traffic on the FT forums. There are virtually no responses to the match reports (when they are posted), it is just a dead environment.
I am a match director of one of the most successful clubs on the West Coast, we have a passionate group of shooters averaging 17-20+ shooters per match we are having fun competing among ourselves and producing national and world champions along the way. Unfortunately I feel that the sport is stagnating. I see great, iconic FT clubs from the West that can't draw 10 shooters per match I am concerned about how our sport will grow and flourish. I see companies like Pyramyd, AOA and Crosman promoting our sport more than our governing body AAFTA.
I believe that for FT to grow it has to have national presence. Local clubs are the life blood of the sport but without a structure that allows local shooters to climb a ladder of competition to a national level people will leave the sport in search of something that offers a greater challenge. How satisfying is it to win your class for the 47th match in a row? How about a national championship in a central location that will draw shooters from all over the country rather than the East 3 years in row and the West 1 year? How about we offer more than one award per class in the GP series? How about some discussion?
Jim in Sacramento
My response was based on the fact that a lot of the traffic in the past was debate and controversy. Take that away and there is less traffic. The match reports are harder to find now based on the way this forum wants them posted. I try to read them all but just don't seem to find them as easily as before. I also don't care to give negative comments about other people's matches specifically. I appreciate the fact that others are willingly to put forth the effort to run matches and thereby support our sport. We pretty much put our effort into running our matches the way we like to.
I agree that the National match should be moved and held in different parts of the country. This is an issue with the NRA and their shooting disciplines as well. There will always be shooters unhappy with the various locations picked in any given year and I don't know exactly how AAFTA picks their venue year to year. The 2019 Nationals for FT will be in LA and the only other club that wanted it was Ashland in OR. Please realize that their are only three FT clubs listed in the northwest yet there are 13 clubs listed in the southeast. I don't know for sure, however that may have some bearing on the location picked. The east has about twice as many clubs as the west and the northeast has the most clubs yet we in the northest don't seem to get the Nationals all that often either.
Rick Bassett
Falls Twsp. R & P Assn.
My $.02....Airgun FT is going in the same direction as archery FT. It is (has) turned into an equipment race. When Fred Bear invisioned field target it was to provide an avenue for archers to keep their skills up to par during the off season, when there was no game to hunt. I suspect the founding fathers in England had the same plans for airgun FT. The Hunter Field Target (where I shoot most of my pellets) had certain equipment limitations and now those are being eroded. Why? I guess so higher scores can be obtained by the masses. But I think back to the National Championships in Mesa, AZ last year where the highest score for the entire match regardless of class, HFT, Open, WFTF, etc., was shot by a Hunter FT participant using a 12X scope and no rangefinder. Now we see 16X scopes and electronic rangefinders. We know where this will go just as it did in Archery. I remember one match when I was shooting archery FT where the shooters ahead of me refused to shoot because the wind was blowing too hard. I reminded them that this was “Field Archery” not, indoor archery. I am in my 70s, drink two pots of caffeinated coffee every day, am 80 pounds overweight and suffer from all the ailments of old age. I cannot compete with the younger shooters and while I can easily keep up with all of the expensive additions to the airgun game, I find it refreshing to compete with equipment that one would use in the “field” where one would be in pursuit of game...I believe that is why the rest of the world limis their airgun FT competions to 12fpe. Maybe I am wrong. Regardless, I shoot between 5-10,000 pellets a year whether I am shooting FT or not. I am starting to shoot informal 10M air rifle and air pistol and as well silhouettes. A separate forum for FT activities would be fine but even on the old Yellow, I did not see that much that was of interest...Let the attacks begin ?
I agree this new forum seems much more difficult to naviagate. I also dislike that all the hundreds of buying and selling transactions I made on the old yellow classified is much more difficult to access now. It seems we have to start all over if we want to sell something and the lack of easy access to our credibility does not exactly give potential buyers much confidence and keep the value of our airguns down... IMO.
I have read all posts on this subjects and agree with many of them. Fact is I do not see the board that we pay our club dues to involving our clubs on the direction we want to grow the support. WFTF seems to be getting any money that is available to grow the sport and presently many shooters are trying or want to try this game (Including myself) because they would like to shoot the world's when they come to the USA in 2021 (Tentatively). I have nothing against the WFTF class and wish them all the best. I personally would also like to see our organization host a Hunter World championship or a Open World championship with our present US rules. Would be willing to convert to 12ft/lbs to include the countries that can't shoot 20 ft/lbs. Realistically, I know this is a crazy idea and will probably never happen but I'm pretty sure our hunter style game would be a lot easier to play than what the European hunter games consist of presently.
I have always agreed that our National Championship location should be rotated around the country if a venue is available to handle it.
Any "Me To's" Out there ?
Bill,
Thank you for your post. You kind of said publicly what my fellow MDs at Falls and I have said privately among ourselves. There seems to be a lot of effort put forth by some to make us ,and our matches more like WFTF courses and matches. A recent example is how the nationals course was set up. It was more like a WFTF course than the courses we have been setting up. That did NOT detract from the quality of the course(s) but they definitely had that flavor. Another club awhile back said they are only going to run European type hunter matches. That's fine if that's what they want to do but that now is one less place to shoot AAFTA field target. The response I got from my associates was simply that they never expect to ever attend a match overseas so why run our matches that way. I personally shoot WFTF division but prefer our course layouts. One friend not involved in running matches but who attends many many matches told me that he spends enough money just going to matches stateside and has no intention of trying to go overseas because of the cost and frankly the risk of losing his equipment!
As far as a world hunter or open match I just don't think we could attract a good level of international attendance. The reality is that our National Match is our "world" match for the AAFTA Divisions.
Based on all the input I have heard so far I really haven't seen the desire or the input to handle the 2021 worlds. I would like to see us pull it off but I just don't see it. I do hope this is one of those times I am mistaken.
It was great shooting and seeing you and everyone at Pleasant Hill.
Respectfully,
Rick Bassett
Falls Twsp. R & P Assn.
...The 2019 Nationals for FT will be in LA and the only other club that wanted it was Ashland in OR. Please realize that their are only three FT clubs listed in the northwest yet there are 13 clubs listed in the southeast. I don't know for sure, however that may have some bearing on the location picked. The east has about twice as many clubs ...
...and all the BOG members ?
The makeup of the competition will be determined by where it is held. That's just how it is.
Ashland is practically in California. And that is where most of the contestants would come from were it to be held there again. There were probably 30-40 California competitors at the 2012 Ashland match. 23 at last years AZ Nationals, and 15 at the 2013 TX Nationals. There were only 6 at the recent NC National match. Proximity makes the difference.
A National match held in California would probably attract about 60 California contestants. But, there is no club in California that really wants to hold it at this time.
The GP series was started to promote attendance at regional matches. It's an alternative way to compare performances for those that can't/won't travel the greater distances to the National matches which are mostly in the Eastern half of the country. Fortunately, most of the Western clubs host GP matches.
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The Nationals was held in Tacoma, WA in 2005. That really IS in the Northwest.
Scott, There is a lot of truth to what you have pointed out. I would like to see more Hunter representation in the Bog but there seems to be very little interest in voting one or two in. I thought Lonnie did a excellent job considering he was the lone rep from the hunter class most of his term. I was hoping that Sean might get to represent us but that didn't seem to work out. Maybe next year?
"The Nationals was held in Tacoma, Wa in 2005. That really is Northwest" ………….. That occurred a year before I started FT but believe the attendance was around 70 entries if I am remembering correctly. In 2006 it was held in Connecticut which was the last time it was held in the Northeast and the attendance was close to what we just had in NC. The National had been applied for in NY last year and the year before with the same results as Oregon received this year.
On the topic of forum participation...
Posting match reports takes considerable effort to write a narrative, compile pictures, edit them for size, build results tables with equipment lists that everyone wants, then post pics and tables to the club website for subsequent linking to here…
I see some clubs post match reports to their club site, and simply post links here. IMO, that does not promote discussion here as it drives people off this site. But frankly, posting match reports here does not get any response, either.
I’m not moaning about it, nor am I asking for sympathy. But there does seem to be some malaise in forum participation, and a lack of responses to match reports is a good example.
I think the transition from the old forum to this one has given some people a timely opportunity to evaluate their need/desire to participate. I know it has for me. I had hoped that traffic at the AAFTA forum would increase, but that has not happened either.
I don’t know the answer, but suspect it will work out over time.
Concerning centrally located GPs and National Matches...
Living in the midwest as I do, I would enjoy having more matches in the midwest. Unfortunately, among the six clubs in the central time zone that I count, only one of them has the 30+ lanes required to host a National Match with 90 or more participants, and enough peoplepower (marginally) to pull it off.
You will see that club in all it's challenging beauty at the Nationals in Baton Rouge LA next October. But given the effort it takes to host a nationals and the long recuperation period afterwards, you cannot expect the Bayou club to host Nats every time a midwestern venue is desired in the rotation...
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I would love to see a Nationals return to Texas. But the Yegua Club surrendered to Big Oil 5-years ago, and the 4 clubs that sprouted to take its place do not have similar facilities.
Take our club in Dallas for example. A truly metropolitan range (not in the boonies). Big city with two air transportation hubs -- DFW airport is barely 5 miles from our range. There's rail transport, too. Most compelling, there are hundreds of hotels and restaurants to choose from, tourist attractions for family members not shooting, etc. The wife and kids can make it a family vacation while you shoot...
But... DFTC has only a skeleton crew of volunteers. Our range has remote parking issues, and is landlocked with 15 lanes, maybe 20 in a pinch... not nearly enough for a National Match. The three other clubs in Texas have similar limitations...
Jim, I agree AFFTA should offer 3 awards for classes of the Grand Prix circuit. Many shooters have to travel and stay at hotels / Motels to compete in these events. Awarding 1st thru 3rd place at our FT Grand Prix would not be too much to expect if our AFFTA treasury has enough money to help pay the registration fee for WFTF World Competitors.
I believe that was mentioned at the AFFTA Annual meeting and I think they mentioned looking into it. Again, I'll repeat I have nothing against our WFTF class and am very proud of our Piston World Champions as well as our Veteran World Champ. However, we have 2 other classes with two divisons each that need support also.
I also agree that a few clubs don't seem to post match reports anymore or at least where you can find them. I have always enjoyed the match reports and am guilty of not commenting on them as much as I use to. I have wanted to but it was beginning to feel I was becoming redundant.
I didn't know you were an archer. I was a member of Diablo Bowmen for many years.
You never cease to amaze me.
Ed C ( the other Ed C )
Ed, I shot up on the hill several times. The wind would be howling...all the time, but there would be those who would not shoot in the wind...just to get a $3.00 pin for their jacket....Embarassing
Concerning centrally located GPs and National Matches...
But... DFTC has only a skeleton crew of volunteers. Our range has remote parking issues, and is landlocked with 15 lanes, maybe 20 in a pinch... not nearly enough for a National Match. The three other clubs in Texas have similar limitations...
Bob this is true of almost all the FT clubs in the country, they do not have the resources to host a major match. By limiting the locations to clubs that have the facility and manpower to hold the match we are going to end up rotating the nationals around a handful of clubs most of which are in the east.
In the last 12 years the the Nationals have been held in the west twice, OR 2012 and AZ 2017. From central CA the last 4 nationals have been, 2700 mi away in NC twice, 800 mi in Phoenix, 2200 mi in MI and next year 2200 mi in LA. You can begin to see why we out west often feel like bastard children.
Another gripe of mine is that AAFTA places all the burden of preparing and running the National on the local club sponsoring the match, they even make you pay for shipping the targets for the match and take most of the money for the raffle prizes which the local club works hard to get from vendors. I have never seen anything like this in the shooting sports.
I would love to see AAFTA take control of the Nationals, find a central location where the match would be held every year (like a Camp Perry type site), pay room and board for volunteers to arrive early and set up the match. Obtain prizes that would actually go to the shooters as an incentive get them excited about participating. To travel across the country to participate in a match cost's between $1000 and $1500 and 4 to 5 days of travel and match time. I love our sport and would love to participate in every National but I cannot justify the expense and time to cross the country for a match where I might win a plaque.
What does AAFTA do with the money? I know the club dues amount to nothing but I estimate that they probably collected over $5000 at last years nationals and probably close to the same this year. As a member club we have never seen a nickle of monies from AAFTA. Just curious.
Jim in Sacramento
...
What does AAFTA do with the money? I know the club dues amount to nothing but I estimate that they probably collected over $5000 at last years nationals and probably close to the same this year. As a member club we have never seen a nickle of monies from AAFTA. Just curious.
Jim in Sacramento
AAFTA sent our club two nice kneeling rolls for our GP match.
Club dues are only $25. Prior to recent changes, I thought proceeds for National match auctions went to the hosting club. So not much revenue stream for AAFTA. The new changes should allow AAFTA to build up some cash reserves to work with in the future.
Concerning location of the Nationals, I don't believe it's an East coast deal. It boils down to two things 1) A club has to want to host & 2) Do you have the space & resources to support a 100+ person match. I truly believe the Bayou Airgun Club will have 120+ shooters at the 2019 nationals. I think that number of shooters is going to present some issues that will have to be figured out. Personally I would love to shoot out in California. Never been there & would love to visit. Hopefully a California club will put a bid in before to long & host the Nats.
Rick, I knew I when I designed the courses, people would go "its a Euro course" . LOL!! Actually it's my take on course set up. I know traditionally both targets are basically in front of you. That is fine. I shoot courses like that most of the time. As course designer this year, I wanted to incorporate angles. I like having to think about the different wind directions. And yes, it bit me during the match with some bad wind calls. As far as the solid color faceplates , there's a simple answer. Ease of initially prepping the targets. I spent a lot of time testing, prepping,& painting targets in my garage. Then the ease of repainting them between matches. At the end of the match Saturday, I didn't want to be painting targets for hours since everybody is worn out by that time of day. Two guys went out with two cans of paint & a can of WD-40 each. They knocked it out in a very short time. Yes, I did take a different approach to the courses. Actually THAGC took some new approaches to several things for the Nationals. I hope the Bayou Club takes it in the direction that they envision. Variety is the spice of life. ?
Scott, AAFTA & the host club has always to my knowledge split the auction proceeds, 50-50.
So after doing this process, I will say this. It is a daunting process, logistically, financially, & time wise. There is so much behind the scenes work to be done that no one will ever see unless they host the Nationals . My hat is off to Scott to handling most of that. Also the money required to get the ball rolling is huge. THAGC didn't have the money, so quite a few club members put up their own money until registration fees started coming in. So if you are going to Louisiana, next year, the sooner you register & pay, it really helps out the host club. As far as time goes, I can't start to figure all of the hours in planning, set up, & execution.
I will say that I'm proud that I was able to take part in hosting this event. Seeing everyone having a good time over the 3 days, made all of the effort worthwhile. It's what motivated me to get my tired old butt out of bed each morning. ? So that's my two cents worth. I've enjoyed reading this post. It's been an interesting conversation.
I believe Scott A said at the AFFTA meeting he didn't have time to prepare the AFFTA annual financial report but would get it out to the clubs sometime after the Nationals. I know from previous Annual meeting in the past the AFFTA Treasury has been up around $10,000. I believe the Auction this year took in around $7000. As to how the hosting club and AFFTA handle the costs and profits after the event is beyond my pay grade.
That's right Bill, I did not have time to finish the AAFTA accounting prior to the Nats (since THAGC was hosting). The auction proceeds were divided equally (which has been the norm) with AAFTA and have already been paid over by THAGC to AAFTA. I will get the financial update done as soon as I can.
Jim Cyan, Scott Hull,
May I suggest that some of the FT competitors that shoot Bench rest at Joe Fredricks place approach him about providing the venue for a future FT National. He has hosted Airgun Bench Rest Nationals in the last few years.
Providing the South West clubs could work together and provide the manpower to setup and run the event. I personally have never met Joe but have heard a lot of favorable things about him and that he has a sizeable spread. It is worth looking into if you want to host a National in California and do not have the venue for it . All he can say is "No".
So after doing this process, I will say this. It is a daunting process, logistically, financially, & time wise. There is so much behind the scenes work to be done that no one will ever see unless they host the Nationals . My hat is off to Scott to handling most of that. Also the money required to get the ball rolling is huge. THAGC didn't have the money, so quite a few club members put up their own money until registration fees started coming in. So if you are going to Louisiana, next year, the sooner you register & pay, it really helps out the host club. As far as time goes, I can't start to figure all of the hours in planning, set up, & execution.
First Chris let me thank you, Scott and all the THAGC members who volunteered to host the national championship. From everything I could see it was a very well run event at a great location that everyone seemed to enjoy immensely. As you and a few others have stated, the amount of work involved to host a successful event is huge. Hat's off to you all.
Your comment about members putting up personal monies to get things started gets back to my point about AAFTA stepping up to the plate and taking more responsibility for their own championship. Right now it seems to me their work load involves picking the location for the championship, shipping some targets and getting paid. The significant burden of holding the championship falls on the hosting club.
I know AAFTA has no employees and the BOG is not going to prepare and host the match so what I am trying to get going here is a discussion about alternatives to hosting our National championship. I would love to see a central location where the best shooters in the country would gather once a year at a great location for a great match. I'm afraid that if things continue to go as they have one of these years no one will volunteer to hold the nationals.
Some food for thought.
Jim in Sacramento
Jim Cyan, Scott Hull,
May I suggest that some of the FT competitors that shoot Bench rest at Joe Fredricks place approach him about providing the venue for a future FT National. He has hosted Airgun Bench Rest Nationals in the last few years.
Joe is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet and if his ranch would be conducive to holding a major match I'm sure he would allow us to use it. Unfortunately his property is covered in orchards and bushes. When he held the National Benchrest Match we had a hard time finding parking for 40 people.
I think a location for a major match has to have a lot more going for it than a great course of fire. I still remember pushing vehicles stuck in the mud out of the parking lot at the last TX nationals.
Jim in Sacramento
Jim Cyan, Scott Hull,
May I suggest that some of the FT competitors that shoot Bench rest at Joe Fredricks place approach him about providing the venue for a future FT National. He has hosted Airgun Bench Rest Nationals in the last few years.
Providing the South West clubs could work together and provide the manpower to setup and run the event. I personally have never met Joe but have heard a lot of favorable things about him and that he has a sizeable spread. It is worth looking into if you want to host a National in California and do not have the venue for it . All he can say is "No".
California has quite a few FT shooters but they are spread out over a large area.
The venue is not really the problem. Joe's place would likely have the same problems as the Morro Bay range. The main issue is sufficient people at a club, with the will to get it done. After starting our club, the venue and available space has never been a problem. We have plenty of room to setup multiple courses and accommodate hundreds of competitors. Our club is somewhat centrally located on the California coast so about equal distance from the bigger population centers. That still puts most of them 200-300 miles away. Without local manpower, things don't get done. I put on a couple of bigger GPs early on, but at present I prefer to host smaller GP matches (20-30 competitors). That's how it will likely stay until someone else takes over.
I could arrange to have the range space available, but I don't have the manpower available to pull it off, and I'm not really the manager type.
Seems to me we are lucky to have a few clubs that are still willing to put it on. If the west really wants one closer to home then something has got to change or it likely won't happen. Maybe Oregon will get it in 2020 if they still want it and as someone mentioned Oregon is so close it is almost in California. ?
Would love to come out to Morrow Bay for a National.
Hi Keith,
What I envision is something similar to the 2017 Nationals in AZ. Beautiful facility, plenty of parking, large covered building for meals, and meetings, great course of fire, great awards banquet, etc, etc. Some place you can bring your family and have a great time. The AZ nationals was what you expect a national championship to be, a special event honoring the best of our participants with a great show. The problem is that AZ is not centrally located and we need to create a championship that both people from the east and west will attend. Ideally what I would like to see is something like a National in Branson, MO in early October.
Until then if we can pick one or two locations (East and West) to hold the match at the same locations every other year we can simplify the whole process. Rather than rely on the local club to host the event we can have volunteers arrive early to the match site set up the course and prepare for the match. Food vendors can the contracted with and used on a regular basis. We can come up with a committee to contact vendors and manufacturers to provide sponsorship and prizes for the match, they can build relationships and insure that the event is well publicized. This would all be under the direction of AAFTA. I don't think you can continue to rely on local clubs to bear the burden of hosting a national championship (and it is a burden).
This is my view from 10,000 feet.
Jim in Sacramento
...Ideally what I would like to see is something like a National in Branson, MO in early October....
Jim in Sacramento
The Easton Yankton Range in South Dakota is under consideration for the world WFTF match if held in the USA? Seems like it would be a good choice for a National match location, even if it was not used for the worlds.
Driving times from:
Ashland, OR - 26hr
Arcadia, FL - 25hr
Hollis, ME - 25hr
Sacramento, CA - 24 hr
Los Angeles, CA - 24hr
Phoenix, AZ - 21hr
Pleasant Hill, NC - 19hr
Rochester, NY - 18hr
Baton Rouge, LA - 17hr
Heflin, AL - 17hr
Dallas, TX - 12hr
Still a long way but it sure beats the 40+hr drive that is common most years for West Coast shooters.
Keith,
Good to see you at the Nats in NC. Maybe most are taking a break and are just watching for a while. This forum is not that different from the Green forum. I guess we are lucky to have someone putting up with us. If you look around, there are several changes that are good. Should be fun in Baton Rouge in the coming year. Looks like we may be going twice in 2019. I hope something can be worked out to have another big match in Heflin. It has to be one of the best courses in the country. David S and Brad Troyer are continuing to making changes to the Invicta course in Minor Hill, TN and it has become an enjoyable course to spend the day on. If you are ever down this way, you might want to bring along your gear and enjoy a day with us. And, you know you are always welcome at Roz's Hollow in Pulaski, TN. Roz continues to play with the White course to keep us on our toes.
Your friend in Tennessee,
Pat
If you took a pin and plugged it into the center of a US map, it would land close to the Branson/Little Rock/Memphis area. Might work, if there was any interest in FT there. Not sure about that. The weather could be a problem for the Nats or the World's in the fall in the South Dakota area unless it was held earlier in the year.
Pat
Pat, seems your beginning post brought a lot of involvement back into this forum. Good Job! With this new forum the "Main topic" seems to get lost a lot easier but at least we are communicating. Winter is pushing us early this year up here in the Northeast so it's time to dust of the roof shovel and pull out the Long Johns. My plans are going to try to part with some of the nice guns I have in my gun room and put together a plan for next year. See you in Baton Rouge next year.
Jim,
Thanks for your thoughts. I think the idea is worth exploring. The question is, how to get there from here.
I was at dinner in Roanoake Rapids during the NATS. Lonnie Smith mentioned in passing that most people miss how important parking is to make the NATS successful. I was glad to see you mention it. It can't be over emphasized. It's that huge. A grass parking area looks wonderful until it rains.
Mike Niksch, myself, Alan Otsuka put on two WFTF training sessions on opposite coasts. We had help from the WFTF community in setting up both matches. Guys showed up early & pitched in to get the course finished, and we were sponsored by local guys who let us use their ground ( Paul Oswalt in Heflin & Wayne Burns in Ashland OR). Without them we would have fallen on our azzes. I can flatly state that volunteering to come out early sounds great until you're doing it. The way to make that pallatable is to have a lot of volunteers. Could we find the headcount in the AAFTA clubs?
The next hurdle is financial. AAFTA National just doesn't have the financial resources to pull that off right now. Using a location that would have to be contracted out brings a whole new level of cost to the equation. Match fees would have to increase. How would that be absorbed by our shooters?
It's not just the total project cost either, but the timing of the cash flow that's important. Locations would have to be reserved well before signups hit the break even point, which often isn't achieved until a few weeks before the match.
Not to be crass, but money fixes a lot of sins. It might be that the first step to getting there is to figure out how to get AAFTA to an annual income of around $20,000 ( a big step) and then have AAFTA share the burden by providing up front financial support to a local club. I also think ( just my opinion) that a club sponsoring the NATS should have a good chance of earning $10,000 from the effort, net of expenses.
Just thinking out loud. Good conversation, Jim.
Regards,
Knobs
Hi Keith, Jim and all,
I've been a supporter of a central location and more support from AAFTA in hosting the Nationals for a long time. Keith you are right that AAFTA would need a lot more funds to accept the challenge. Let's think about that and Jim's point that we really don't hold a National Championships every year, we hold a regional championship, because most of the top shooters cannot or will not, travel that far to compete if it's not held on their coast.
We, the shooters, have to look deep inside ourselves and think about our spending on our sport. This is where the problem is in my opinion. We are willing to spend 5k on our rigs and have maybe two or three of them, but not willing to spend $100 a year for membership in AAFTA. Individual membership is the answer, not squeezing the hosting club for revenues, like we are doing now.
There is at least 300 serious competitors in the FT game right now, but only about 100 are willing to travel, if the Nationals is held on the East coast. And about 80 if held in the Northwest. Like Jim said, one will be spending upwards of 2k in travel and work time lost to travel across the country. A central location and prizes for the winners is the way to have a true National contest. How do we get there? Let's talk about it.
Wayne Burns,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
I would like to see is something like a National in Branson, MO in early October.
Jim,
Would you know anything about this place
or was it a coincidence that you brought up Branson.
Knobs
. How do we get there? Let's talk about it.
Wayne Burns,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Wayne,
It's a bit out of the box, but I'm not aware of anything stopping a group of volunteer shooters associated with a club from making a proposal to hold the NATS at a central location.
Insurance might be an issue. I'd guess that a central shooting facility might have that covered. Private land might be a little tougher(just thinking out loud).
In this way a small club with limited range space might be able to put something together.
It could get the ball rolling.
Knobs
Knobs
"What we have here is a failure to communicate." Apparently I need to repeat some of the points I made at the 2017 AAFTA Annual Meeting.
Like many great ideals (not to be confused with great ideas), a centrally-located venue for Nats would only be a viable proposition if one already existed. Since apparently that isn't the case, the idea of a central location for holding Nats is a complete non-starter ideal unless an enthusiastic new field target club is founded in the central U.S.; furthermore at a venue willing and able to host Nats (having the necessary facilities, workforce, parking, etc.).
Since that's about as likely to happen as transplanting the Phoenix, Arizona 2017 Nats venue to the central U.S., the only use for the ideal of a centrally-located Nats is the hope that ideal might generate enough discussion to give this FT-forum something of a jump-start. Okay, I'll explain why that's the only reason this idea/ideal is viable.
1) Who (all) will locate a centrally-located firearms, archery, or golf venue willing to surrender their club over to airgunners to have our way with for a week or more? Hint- it ain't gonna happen!
2) Who (all) will sell the idea to the BoG? Don't forget, besides overcoming foreseeable BoG objections, you'll probably need to hit them up for many thousand bucks! (See #3 below)
3) But should those impossible hurdles be overcome, who (all) is going to handle the logistics of recruiting, assembling, managing, scheduling and exporting knowledgable-enough airgunners to that venue to prepare it (over the course of several days or more) for the National Championships? Don't forget small details like, A) Each volunteer's extended absence from home or job to not only prepare for Nats but run the show, and return the borrowed or rented venue back to original condition. B) Each volunteer's travel, hotel and meal expenses for said extended absence from home. C) Foreseeable and unforeseeable conflicts with the hosting club's Powers That Be. D) Possible/probable liability insurance conflicts. E) Other issues not foreseen in the few minutes taken to compose this.
4) Last but not least, who (all) would possibly believe the centrally-located Nats venue ideal a viable idea given the aforementioned obstacles heaped on top of the many challenges of (simply?) hosting a field target National Championships at One's home venue?
Volunteers? ANYONE?
Allow me to suggest the possibility that lofty ideals are often clouded by such minutiae as reality(s). Allow me to also suggest that sometimes a better course of action is to build upon experience(s) to improve the wheel, rather than trying to build a perpetual-motion machine from scratch!
Sorry if all this logic and common-sense is a real buzz-killer, Y'all. ?
...
1) Who (all) will locate a centrally-located firearms, archery, or golf venue willing to surrender their club over to airgunners to have our way with for a week or more? Hint- it ain't gonna happen!
Why not?
http://www.yanktonarcherycomplex.org/
Geographically central for continental USA:
Looks ready made. Once someone surveyed the facilities, courses could probably be planned in one day. And setup in one day with three dedicated persons.
Hi Knobs,
I actually proposed that one time... a rotation of smaller and larger clubs hosting at a central location that is supported by an AAFTA insurance policy in addition to the facility policy. A lot more clubs may want to host the Nationals if that was the case. Yes, the cash flow issues are big, but like proposed above, an individual membership fee could easily handle that. Maybe folks would not mind paying a yearly fee, if they had a chance to win a nice prize at the Nationals and that would be very possible since the donations would not be needed for the AAFTA budget anymore.
Scott, that looks like a great possibility. They even have a form to fill out for renting the facility. I'm sure we could schedule a time that would work. We should check the weather history for that location. It might be colder than the south, and, the south east has lots of clubs and great venues for matches, but the weather can be actually deadly that time of year. This year only 10 days on both sides of the date chosen had hurricanes blowing over the course. At best it's very humid and sweaty eyes and lots of nasty bugs are helping you take your shots and at worst, you have to cancel the match. This year a canon ball was dodged.
Let's keep positive ideas flowing.
Wayne
Like Keith said, this idea could be tested by any club or group of clubs that are willing to check it out and schedule a time to meet up there and put together a championship match of some sorts.... maybe a GP is possible.
If a test match goes well, then maybe a proposal to host a Nationals could be offered to the AAFTA BOG.
Wayne
here is a weather history link
https://weatherspark.com/m/8332/10/Average-Weather-in-October-in-Yankton-South-Dakota-United-States
Being on the southern edge of S Dakota, on the Missouri River, the weather looks really very nice the last week of Sept thru the first week of Oct. I'm impressed, great find Scott!
Wayne
There would need to be a great deal of planning and communications amongst the powers to be but I have faith in our leadership and knowledgeable membership. I believe we could actually pull this off and do a great job. I'm all for making things as easy, cost effective and fair for all who want to participate in our National Championship. I like what I'm hearing and wouldn't mind being part of something like this. More!
Central Location, individual memberships, etc.
I really like what Wayne and Scott are suggesting about picking one central location for the annual Nationals and also AAFTA switching to individual memberships.
As an example of the potential of these ideas, both of them form the foundation of another amateur competition organization that I am familiar with, the Sports Car Club of America. SCCA's annual autocross championship is held in Lincoln, Nebraska and attracts 1,400 competitors(approx.)! To run at the SCCA nationals you have to have a membership and also qualify by running a regional championship event similar to our AAFTA GP series. SCCA's championships started in the early 1970s and keep getting bigger! Considering their huge participation, it is interesting to note that volunteers run everything except 5 positions.
I see no reason why FT cannot be a successful SPORT if we plan ahead intelligently. We just need to break out of the mold of treating FT like a game and look ahead of how we can establish it as a sport.
If the AAFTA BOG would be interested, I would gladly explain all the good ideas that SCCA has implemented over their history. In my opinion they are about the most fair and democratic organization I have ever been a member of( and I have been competing with quite a few orgs that cater to amateur competitors).
Examples of SCCA-based ideas that could make everyone's FT experience better:
- Instead of the BOG making up all the rules, they could form small advisory committees where each one would be responsible for recommending rules within a certain category( Hunter, Open, WFTF )
-The BOG could also appoint certain seasoned competitors who attend GP events to be "Event Stewards". Their responsibility would be to have the final say should there be a complaint or event operation issue. As an example of a current challenge, the event master is "judge, jury and executioner" and when it comes to protesting clearly illegal course designs, an EM may easily choose not to correct the issues(speaking from experience)
George
When, this idea becomes successful, we will have a lot more competitors at the National match. I personally think that this is also a problem that the AAFTA BOG thinks is unsolvable and maybe that and lack of funds, is why they don't try hard to grow the sport.
More shooters will need more lanes to spread out on. More shooters will need more days to shoot all the lanes. More shooters mean a lot more parking, a larger tent or building for meetings and to eat in. These things need to be worked out too. At least we have the model of the WFTF Championships. All the classes that AAFTA has will complicate the issue a little, if we want to keep each class on the same course each day.
More shooters also means more cash flow for the hosting club. Now they can for sure offer great prizes and quality food and maybe go home with some money for their clubs efforts.
Wayne
This might be the right time for a few observations.
It seems pretty obvious that individuals who perceive or recognize a problem enough to bring it to light and start discussions aimed at solving said problem are also the most invested in solving the problem. Hence, it's only natural that those are also the individuals motivated enough to rise to the top and channel the idea into actual action; for (or) who else will? That said, history proves motivated humans are capable of the seemingly impossible; so the seemingly difficult should be no step for a stepper!
So unless I'm misinterpreting this, it appears we may have the beginnings of a committee (of volunteers?)! I would think the hierarchy might fall into place naturally enough based on who does what.
BTW, other than moral support and/or profundity, I'm out since I have higher priorities (the Big D, not to be confused with Dallas).
I know this will need the blessings from the BOG but I totally agree with PISTOLERO's statement and I too would like to see this committee begin to form and start looking into the possibility of bringing this and other ideas forward. Some really good ideas have already been shared for improvement possibilities and I believe there could be others. I personally hate to see good ideas waisted so hope the statements listed here will be noted and not lost in the pile. I don't know the process for all this but believe Knobs, Jim, Wayne and other out spoken leaders that have shared their thoughts and opinions would make a great start. So, gentlemen please step up, agree to form this committee and let's get started.
gonna throw this out there and then duck and cover.... 🙂
How about approaching the NRA to have the Nats at the Raton NM range. that place is bigger than some countries......... They have everything that was described above, that the AZ 17 Nats had, kinda centrally located ..... Possibly piggy back on their insurance???
Likely we could camp at the Raton range too. save a few bucks that way......
or was it a coincidence that you brought up Branson.
Knobs
Actually what I was thinking of first was the Yankton Facility Scott mentions. I believe this is the venue Ron Carlson was researching as a possible location for the Worlds when they come to the USA. Ron was very high on the the facility. In Branson I was thinking someday we would be successful enough to hold the Nationals at a facility like https://www.bigcedar.com/attractions/shooting-academy-en.html
This thread is turning into what I hoped it would be when I started my comments. There are some really good and thoughtful suggestions made by many of our long time members that deserve some more serious discussion.
The thought of a National Championship held at a beautiful, centrally located facility, with a challenging course of fire used once a year for the nationals, offering a large number of very nice prizes for the top shooters funded by dues paid by individual AAFTA members and donations from the Airgun industry is a dream we should all have. This effort could all be controlled by the National Competition Committee, under the direction of the BOG, a group of volunteers who would do the heavy lifting to see that we host a first class championship.
What we really need is some leadership from AAFTA. Are they interested in moving the organization to grow in size and stature? Without this leadership all this discussion will go nowhere, you cannot expect some local club to step up to the plate and do all this work for the benefit of AAFTA.
What are we going to do?
Jim in Sacramento
Since Raymond came right out and stated what I was alluding to (thanks Ray), I think we have a good idea who is most invested in promoting these ideas and (consequently) who should grab the ball and run with it; lest the ball be dropped! In other words, the ball's in you guys' court, Gentlemen.
I think Dan has some excellent suggestions. I can't imagine the NRA not supporting such efforts, likely including the use of the Whittington Center which has all the necessary facilities and would no doubt solve liability insurance headaches/hurdles/issues. In fact that place would probably accommodate a Field Target World Championships, as likely would the NRA (be interested).
FWIW, I'm not convinced the BoG is particularly interested in exponential growth of U.S. field target competition. That could be a hurdle... but I could also be wrong ("thought I was wrong one time, but found out I was mistaken"). Regardless, BoG blessing or obstruction would become evident soon enough, and would be worth knowing.
I believe one given in these discussions is the possibility that competitors themselves should expect progress such as that being considered would probably come at some level of personal expense ($$$). That so, I'll go out on a limb here by suggesting no-one shooting $3000 pellet guns has any foundation for moral outrage about a $100 (or more) per year additional "financial burden".
I was thinking someday we would be successful enough to hold the Nationals at a facility like https://www.bigcedar.com/attractions/shooting-academy-en.html
Looks like a great place. I contacted them to discuss feasibility & will send them Google Maps layouts of the NATS courses to give them an idea of what we need.
What we really need is some leadership from AAFTA. Are they interested in moving the organization to grow in size and stature? Without this leadership all this discussion will go nowhere, you cannot expect some local club to step up to the plate and do all this work for the benefit of AAFTA.
Actually Jim, meaning nothing condescending, I do expect clubs to be able to take the lead on something like this. That's exactly what Mike & I did with the WFTF USA training shoots we set up.
