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Can this solve a problem in FT?  

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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-07 20:23:24  

I am curious if we can solve a problem we have all experienced

IMG 20200207 173910650

in a field target match and Grand Prix's. 

A target fails part way through a match!  The target gets removed and all are awarded the target.

For those who dropped the target and were tied or one ahead in final placement, the another competitor, moves ahead or ties . suddenly the whole field gets jumbled around. I

the target was called/protested on the spot and is checked, it can be replaced and re-shot. Being fair to all.....!

But replacing the Target with another of the same kill zone size can be troublesome. That is especially if the spares to choose from don't have the rt size. 

I suggest that if clubs invested in three or even four of the Rhino  targets multi circle target, you can immediately replace the bad target, dial the rt size  KZ, and move on...!

Yes, most if you know I own a custom target company, but I own one of these Rhino targets and feel it would help solve this issue up


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Wayne Burns
( @wayne-burns )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 104
2020-02-11 09:38:08  

I guess there is no reason the replacement target has to be freshly painted.  LD NEVER paints his targets for a match.  All are beaten up from the first shot.  No advantage for the first shooters.

I don't like going that far, because I think we all should have the first few lanes of clean face plates to see our misses and have a chance to make corrections in our hold or whatever is legal in our classes.  But, I'm open to replacing a used target with a target in the similar condition.  If it's a fresh target, replace with a fresh one.  If it's all shot up, replace with a shot up one of the same size kill zone.  Might need a few more targets in the inventory of spares, but that again should not be a problem for GP matches, if so let me know!

How's that?

Wayne


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dmw6455
( @dmw6455 )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 15
2020-02-11 13:44:29  

Not commenting on malfunctioning targets, but targets later determined to be illegal due to size of the killzone.  I think that after a match has been completed, in my case pistol at the Nationals, the results in an illegal size killzone in a perfectly functioning target should stand.  Everyone shot the same target and those of us that managed to knock down the target are unfairly penalized and those that didn't knock it down get points they did not deserve.  I think a rule change is necessary by the board in a case like this.  My .02cents.


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Bob D.
( @bob-d )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 24
2020-02-16 17:41:27  

The rules, as currently written prohibit "false" hit zones on any target.  The rotisserie target proposed would not qualify, as people will see multiple circular holes.  

The solution -- already proposed -- is to mask all but the active KZ with a metal plate in front.

If defective targets are to be replaced and reshot during the match, then you can expect a National Match to take a lot more time to complete.  IIRC, the Sunday Michigan Rifle match holds the record for length of 7-1/2 hours, or was it 8 hours (with some targets granted to all).

Add another hour for cold lines to determine malfunctions and (4-person per squad) reshoots, and you will have little time (in short October daylight) to conduct the inevitable shootoffs.   At Michigan, the shoot-off I participated in did not start until 5:30pm, and it was beyond dusk during the awards presentations.  Add that extra hour, and...

So, you missed your flight?  Have to rent an extra hotel night cause you don't like driving at night, or can't make that hotel reservation as scheduled?  Soooooo, be careful what you wish for... 

Keep in mind that 20ft.lb. shooters cannot always identify a defective target, while this problem affects 12 ft.lb shooters more often.   A couple of 20fpe squads can pass through a lane with a defective target before it is identified.  Happened to me just last year in fact.  Letting multiple squads reshoot targets is an unpredictable time debacle waiting to happen.

I'm among those content to keep the match moving, with the developing pattern of protests resulting in awarding points after the match for defective targets.  So, all opinions are represented here.  Shoot me...


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scratchit
( @scratchit )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 158
2020-02-16 17:58:36  

Maybe mask w/gorilla tape....?

 

 

 

errr, never mind .......

 

Be Prepared !


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Bob D.
( @bob-d )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 24
2020-02-16 18:39:40  

Hey Bill, I forgot it.  Can you run back to the clubhouse and get the gorilla tape... more time wasted.

AAFTA can afford to buy 6-8 of these rotisserie targets for national matches (3-4 standbys for each 15-lane range), but to conform to the same rules, any club hosting a Grand Prix will also have to buy some of these targets, too.  


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Gratewhitehuntr
( @gratewhitehuntr )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 541
2020-02-17 04:20:57  

I do not shoot FT, but all this talk of technicalities is fascinating.

Too many good points here to mention them all, but Bob D has a particularly good one, and also the predominant gripe of awarding points to everyone. Put that top of the list why I don't play. If the game isn't scored accurately, pun intended, then why play?

 

Paul, I do not see your ownership of a target company as a conflict, rather the source of your interest in this topic.

Who is more interested in working targets than the target guy?

 


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-17 06:49:46  

Gratewhitehuntr,

 

You are on point with your statement,I

"If the game isn't scored accurately, pun intended, then why play"?

As a group, we are tasked with trying to grow the sport by getting more people interested. 

Shooting a good match and scoring very well, is brutally taken away at the end, by throwing a target out. 

In the regard of a target just out side the designated distance, that some get and some don't.  A shooter not as skilled to hit it, is awarded their missed points. How is that fair?

Fixing the problem on the spot with a new target, with a specific reducer or a dial type, or whatever, makes it fair to all.

Especially if you drive 14-15 hrs, and spend the money to get there, pay the fee, and work hard in your game for years to compete.

As for additional time, it can be done fairly quickly if targets are already prepped to be plugged in. 

At a match Bob described above, which takes that inordinate amount of time. that is an exceotion reflected on the host club. Not all clubs that host a GP or Nationals have those issues.

In recent years, we expeirenced two GPs in a row ,where severe weather caused the two matches to be played the same day for safety.

They both went well and finished before any issue loosing daylight. There were no targets thrown out that I can remember. 

I personally competed in a GP that a target was shot at and was obstructed by a branch. The rule of, once it was shot, all had to shoot it with the obstruction. 

It was the next lane back for us.  I moved on as it was to be my last lane of the match.

When we arrived to the lane. The decision had been made  to move the shooters over to my starting lane, and shoot both lanes from there.

My squad waited just over 2 hours to shoot that lane with all the squads that had backed up. The wind was howling on the  field by then. I still took second, but it all could have been avoided, if the problem target, was taken care of on the spot. 

We need to embrace change, especially if it betters the game for all.

I believe that is the core principle of AAFTA , better the game and gain more participation.

Again my humble opinion.....


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Wayne Burns
( @wayne-burns )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 104
2020-02-17 10:57:00  

As Paul just said...

If the club is well prepared with targets on the shooting line every 3th or 4th lane or so, it should only take 5 to 10 mins to change out a target and 5 more to re-shoot the lane for the shooter who protested.  If you didn't protest the target, then you don't get to re-shoot it.  The WFTF world rules have been well tested over time.  We need to adapt to those.  We will be hosting the Worlds in 2021!

When the course is set up to shoot opposite directions, like most of the courses I work with are, a cold line is only called where it's necessary, half the competitors at least will still be shooting.  

The number of lanes available to spread out the shooters, can prevent the need to have 4 shooters per lane, which can really slow down a match.  

PROPER PLANNING PREVENTS PISS POOR PRODUCTION!!!!

 

Wayne Burns,

Match Director,

2020 AAFTA National FT Championships

 


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-17 12:01:00  

Amen Wayne!

Most on here agree too. Simple is best. As well as concrete rules that leave no misinterpatations.


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TerryVanpool
( @tvanpool )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 75
2020-02-17 14:17:07  

I do "not" have a solution but,

As long as we are shooting at fairly crude mechanical targets, set out on the course by humans, there will be issues. Some targets fall when they should not, some don't fall when they should and some are intermittent. If one of these failing targets is replaced, then all should get to reshoot it, not a good solution due to time required and no more fair than eliminating that target or awarding points to everyone. For if only the protesters get to reshoot, it would lead to protest on every miss by some.

Targets improperly set (too far or with obstacles) should be dealt with after the match with the match director with a stearn flogging.

I think the match director should define how these issues will be handled before the match based on his particular situation and to keep things moving.

 


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Wayne Burns
( @wayne-burns )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 104
2020-02-19 20:05:04  

here is a link to the full rules for the worlds.

http://www.world-field-target-federation.com/Rules

anyone who plans to shoot wftf class in 2021 when the USA will be hosting should have already read it..

and here is their rules for disputed targets  between our west coast clubs we have at least 4 testing devices.

 

5.12 Disputed targets


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glr59
( @glr59 )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 97
2020-02-22 06:52:43  

Just thought of something and its early so bear with me. What if the match is set up with an extra lane. You don't replace any targets and you make it "best of" ?   

Example:  62 shot match best of 60. No replacing targets and everyone gets to pick their best 60 shots. In case of a tie the extra lane determines the tie breaker. The extra lane gives wiggle room if there is a faulty target. No taking away or adding points. Keeps everything moving avoiding cold lines to inspect targets. 

Jerry L

P.S. Might require rule change 


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gonzav
( @gonzav )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 95
2020-02-22 09:21:57  

@glr59

Jerry,

I did a bonus lane for the CT state match last year. I had an extra lane to break any ties. And I made it extremely hard with reducers out to their max distances. The lane did not count towards the match unless there was a tie.

Leo

 


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Bill Day
( @bill-day )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 183
2020-02-22 10:59:21  

Wayne, I like your solution 3 posts above me. Leo, I like your remedy also but I have seen major events that would need three or four extra lanes to equal things out.


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Scotchmo
( @scotchmo )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 148
2020-02-22 16:25:29  
Posted by: @glr59

Just thought of something and its early so bear with me. What if the match is set up with an extra lane. You don't replace any targets and you make it "best of" ?   

Example:  62 shot match best of 60. No replacing targets and everyone gets to pick their best 60 shots. In case of a tie the extra lane determines the tie breaker. The extra lane gives wiggle room if there is a faulty target. No taking away or adding points. Keeps everything moving avoiding cold lines to inspect targets. 

Jerry L

P.S. Might require rule change 

Does that mean I'd be able to throw out one of the standing targets that I probably missed?

 


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Scotchmo
( @scotchmo )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 148
2020-02-22 16:31:59  
Posted by: @gonzav

@glr59

Jerry,

I did a bonus lane for the CT state match last year. I had an extra lane to break any ties. And I made it extremely hard with reducers out to their max distances. The lane did not count towards the match unless there was a tie.

Leo

 

I've been at silhouette matches where you shot your shootoff targets immediately after the your match round. That way they did not need to call you back in case you were tied for a podium position. The shootoff was already done. That sounds the same as what you did. Since it does not count towards the final match score, it won't address Paul's complaint.

 


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Scotchmo
( @scotchmo )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 148
2020-02-22 16:40:21  
Posted by: @tvanpool

I do "not" have a solution but,

As long as we are shooting at fairly crude mechanical targets, set out on the course by humans, there will be issues. Some targets fall when they should not, some don't fall when they should and some are intermittent. If one of these failing targets is replaced, then all should get to reshoot it, not a good solution due to time required and no more fair than eliminating that target or awarding points to everyone. For if only the protesters get to reshoot, it would lead to protest on every miss by some.

Targets improperly set (too far or with obstacles) should be dealt with after the match with the match director with a stearn flogging.

I think the match director should define how these issues will be handled before the match based on his particular situation and to keep things moving.

 

"... it would lead to protest on every miss by some...."

"some" people already do that.

"...should be dealt with after the match with the match director with a stearn flogging..."

How about we give that treatment to those that protest a target that checks out to be good. That happens a lot more often.


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glr59
( @glr59 )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 97
2020-02-23 06:44:42  

@scotchmo

Didn't think of that.   🙂     I guess the MD would have to decide a target was malfunctioning then use the score from one of the extra targets....

 

Jerry

I still think the idea may help and Leo already thought of it before me so maybe it has some merit.

 

 

 


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TerryVanpool
( @tvanpool )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 75
2020-02-23 10:53:27  

"... it would lead to protest on every miss by some...."

"some" people already do that.

"...should be dealt with after the match with the match director with a stearn flogging..."

How about we give that treatment to those that protest a target that checks out to be good. That happens a lot more often.

Actually I think a rule like they have in baseball would work. "one failed protest per match". If you protest a target that check good you are not allowed any more protest for that match.


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