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Can this solve a problem in FT?  

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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-07 20:23:24  

I am curious if we can solve a problem we have all experienced

IMG 20200207 173910650

in a field target match and Grand Prix's. 

A target fails part way through a match!  The target gets removed and all are awarded the target.

For those who dropped the target and were tied or one ahead in final placement, the another competitor, moves ahead or ties . suddenly the whole field gets jumbled around. I

the target was called/protested on the spot and is checked, it can be replaced and re-shot. Being fair to all.....!

But replacing the Target with another of the same kill zone size can be troublesome. That is especially if the spares to choose from don't have the rt size. 

I suggest that if clubs invested in three or even four of the Rhino  targets multi circle target, you can immediately replace the bad target, dial the rt size  KZ, and move on...!

Yes, most if you know I own a custom target company, but I own one of these Rhino targets and feel it would help solve this issue up


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josh3rd
( @josh3rd )
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Posts: 151
2020-02-07 21:01:35  

Good idea. I wish I picked your brain when you were at dcfs last year


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Kerndtc
( @kerndtc )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 112
2020-02-07 21:23:46  

I totally agree Paul! 

My buddy Dave made me some custom reducers that use three screws to mount to the faceplate. It is essentially the same thing. You can have one or two spare targets and two full sets of extra reducers on hand to remove and replace the target with the exact reducer if you want. This is how I'll hold my matches when I am able to! 

Cam

 

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gonzav
( @gonzav )
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Posts: 95
2020-02-07 21:26:33  

I would get all field targets with only 40mm or 1-1/2" KZs and then only use reducers (from 3/8" to 1" size) from Rhino targets. They are installed from the front and clipped at the back with a large retention clip. They are 1/2" thick machined steel reducers. This would allow flexibility in target replacement. Rhino target reducers cost $5 apiece.

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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-07 21:37:24  

Leo, the only problem is getting those reducers to fit another target other than a Rhino. 

I just figured that a couple of those circle multi targets would be simple and fast to plug into a broken targets position.  

 


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Kerndtc
( @kerndtc )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 112
2020-02-07 22:00:20  

The dial target is a good idea, but technically might be illegal due to the false kill zone rule. 

Have multiple dedicated backup targets with interchangeable reducers. This will solve that problem, have the person/s  who protested the target reshoot it. 

 

Cam


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-07 22:10:00  

Whatever works to stop the "giving"of targets that screws up the entire field of shooters.

 


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MiguelSanchez
( @miguelsanchez )
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Posts: 58
2020-02-07 22:21:32  

It is a good idea, but, I see a problem there that can be fixed.

As all the kill zones are visible, that can cause arguments, but, what if you add something to cover the kill zones not in use?

 

 


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Kerndtc
( @kerndtc )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 112
2020-02-07 22:22:17  

Very few times have I ever wound up on the good side of a target being thrown out. 100% agree with you.

 


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-07 22:31:41  

I thought the same thing Miguel. Easy fix as the center bolt has the room to put a half moon piece of 1/8" metal, allowing only the top KZ to be exposed.

A reducers solution is fine also.


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Scotchmo
( @scotchmo )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 148
2020-02-08 00:11:13  
Posted by: @paul-porch

Whatever works to stop the "giving"of targets that screws up the entire field of shooters.

 

I have been advocating for a change like that for years.

Too many instances of it at national matches. I've lost and gained positions from the free points lottery. It never sits well.

I've been the match director for seven GP matches and have never given out a free point.

We keep spares of each size and replace them on the spot if there is a problem.

It can slow the match down, but it prevents long delays in posting recalculated results. Changing competitors scores after they are turned in - that's amateurish.

Five kz sizes is plenty in my opinion (3/8" , 1/2" , 3/4" , 1" , 1.5" ) that limits the number of spares needed.

Or have a couple spares with replaceable kz reducers that swap out quickly. Something like Cameron showed.

Make a rule that free points are NEVER awarded and then they will stop doing it.

Maintain/pre-qualify all targets, and if there is a problem during a match, fix/replace it on the spot. The affected shooter must reshoot and knock it down to earn the point.


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gonzav
( @gonzav )
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Posts: 95
2020-02-08 05:54:34  
Posted by: @paul-porch

Leo, the only problem is getting those reducers to fit another target other than a Rhino. 

I just figured that a couple of those circle multi targets would be simple and fast to plug into a broken targets position.  

 

Paul,

Rhino reducers fit any target with 1-1/2” or 40mm KZ and face plates less than 3/16” thick. You need to use retaining ring pliers to replace them.

-Leo


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-08 06:43:03  

Scott, agreed!  This has hurt me more often then helped. When it is announced that a target on a lane is going this be thrown out or protested, we all fear the out come. 

Another issue I asked the BOG to address, is when a target it s little past the legal limit for the KZ and it is thrown out!

The target was not defective and most dropped it once or twice. All competitors shot at it equally. But when protested it is given to all. Seems unfair to the field like the issue above. 

The club set it wrong so why penalized the field if all other things were equal... It worked and was dropped by shooters..... 

JUST MY OPINION i, but it should stand. Just some shooters ranged and shot better than some others .

Glad to see folks voicing their comments here. I missed seeing us interact with our ideas and comments. 


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
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Posts: 132
2020-02-08 06:43:40  

Leo, good to know about the reducers. 


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Scotchmo
( @scotchmo )
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Posts: 148
2020-02-08 13:27:50  
Posted by: @paul-porch

Scott, agreed!  This has hurt me more often then helped. When it is announced that a target on a lane is going this be thrown out or protested, we all fear the out come. 

Another issue I asked the BOG to address, is when a target it s little past the legal limit for the KZ and it is thrown out!

The target was not defective and most dropped it once or twice. All competitors shot at it equally. But when protested it is given to all. Seems unfair to the field like the issue above. 

The club set it wrong so why penalized the field if all other things were equal... It worked and was dropped by shooters..... 

JUST MY OPINION i, but it should stand. Just some shooters ranged and shot better than some others .

Glad to see folks voicing their comments here. I missed seeing us interact with our ideas and comments. 

In reality, it's just as likely to help as hurt you. Free points put me on the podium at one National match. At a specific match, it does affect the outcome. But overall, if you shoot enough matches, it's balances out (like all elements of chance). And the same could be said if we just leave the bad or illegal targets in the match - it does not matter in the long run, so why pull them out?

At some National matches, targets have been pulled because of being too close or too far (no such thing as too close or too far in my opinion). If you shoot the target and it did not fall, you should not get the point.

Though this may be an instance where the shooter could be given the option of NOT shooting a target that they suspect is illegal (too far, too close, too small).

The WFTF rules let the shooter choose:

"If the decision is to shoot the target the result will be register and the shooter loses the possibility of presenting a protest. If the decision is to protest that information will be register in the score card and at the end of the competition the target in question will be measured by a Marshall to check the distance."

I like that way so far, but don't just give it to everybody.

I think a couple of targets that got pulled at last year Nationals were because of incorrect KZ sizes. There are eight different size kill zones in the AAFTA target inventory, so easy to pick the wrong size just by looking at the KZ size. Though I personally don't think it's a good reason to pull a target, too small of a KZ could also be handled by allowing the shooter to choose to NOT shoot it and then verify it after.


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Bill Day
( @bill-day )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 184
2020-02-09 11:49:21  

@scotchmo

I totally agree that their is a problem with the awarding or taking away points and it should be address once and for all! Last year at popular Grand Prix I shot a 26 yard target with a 1" KZ and missed it both times. The shooter that followed me who is a top shooter missed it twice also. We called for a field marshall and wanted him to check the target. He told me that he didn't have his tester with him and walked off. That kinda pissed me off but I let it go. The next shooter in our group who was a new FT shooter knocked the target down with his first shot and missed it with his second shot. We put P's on our cards for that target but it never changed our score. As I once heard a FT forefather state "even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while". I am certain that lead splatter can temporarily prevent a target from functioning properly if it lands in the right place, but continued shooting at the same target can dislodge the obstruction and the target begins working as it should. The time to check it is when it is not working. That's a hard one to remedy!

 


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-09 12:05:37  

And there is the answer Scott! Address it then and there! Replace a bad target with the same KZ, and reshoot it. Simple. 

I m sure that almost a clubs would have the spare KZ targets for replacing. If not, Invest to have that ability. Worth it in the long run IMHO.


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Scotchmo
( @scotchmo )
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Posts: 148
2020-02-09 15:18:48  
Posted by: @bill-day

... I am certain that lead splatter can temporarily prevent a target from functioning properly if it lands in the right place, but continued shooting at the same target can dislodge the obstruction and the target begins working as it should. The time to check it is when it is not working. That's a hard one to remedy!

 

There is a certain amount of randomness that we can never completely eliminate. In the long run it does not matter because it all averages out. A broken/failed target/string should get replaced. Those are obvious malfunctions. But targets that appear intermittent/questionable/too_close/too_far/too_small? Everyone shot the same targets - so why pull them after the match?


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rich177
( @rich177 )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 64
2020-02-09 18:47:25  

I understand and agree with the concern.  I hate it when I hit the target and others get a point when they don't.  Your suggestion is a way to avoid that particular issue but FT is never totally fair no matter how hard we try to make it so.  Conditions change from lane to lane and time to time so nobody is faced with exactly the same challenge at the same lane, just dumb luck is all.  We try not to have target malfunctions in the first place and put some effort into that.  We also repair the targets during the match when possible, which is almost all of the time.  I keep a repair kit with me on the course during the match.  Of course having replacement targets is also a good idea as well.

Rick B.


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Wayne Burns
( @wayne-burns )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 105
2020-02-09 19:35:18  

Ashland Air Rifle/AirGun Oregon uses the same policy that Scott Hull has been using and that's what we will be doing at the 2020 AAFTA National FT Championships next Oct.  and all Grand Prix we host as well.  Having plenty of Targets should not be a problem if a club is hosting a GP match.  If your club is hosting a GP and need more targets let me know and I'll help you out with some of our extras.

No free points.... but there will be a free lunch:-)

 

Wayne


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Kidpellet
( @kidpellet )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 41
2020-02-10 14:09:46  

Got in this late but would the new target be all shot up like the one being replaced? Would it be the same color and be reasonably the same difficulty to range? There may also be some unfairness there also.


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Wayne Burns
( @wayne-burns )
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Posts: 105
2020-02-10 14:45:38  
Posted by: @kidpellet

Got in this late but would the new target be all shot up like the one being replaced? Would it be the same color and be reasonably the same difficulty to range? There may also be some unfairness there also.

Good point "Kidpellet", but that is along the line of an above post considering light, wind, temp ect for each new point in time and weather conditions changes during the day.  That is a level we cannot deal within the rules, it has to average out as you shoot lots of matches over the years.

 

at least that's my opinion, and as the match director for the 2020 AAFTA nationals, it's what counts for that event:-)

 

Wayne


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Kidpellet
( @kidpellet )
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Posts: 41
2020-02-10 15:25:49  

There is obviously no making it exactly the same for all however if the 16x shooters were all missing the target because it was hard to range and then after it was replaced with a nicely painted bright colored target and then all the following 16x shooters got it, that would be just as unfair as throwing out a target, wouldn't it?

For the record I'm not a 16x shooter


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-10 15:43:34  

Ray, for me I am only looking at the KZ anyway.... As a great man, with a British accent in Tenn, once told me..... "Just aim at the round bits'.

Seriously, I only concentrate on the KZ when aiming anyway. Ranging is usually easier for me when I can see the pock marks on the face plate. 16 power is tough, but that is the class and problem faced all the time.

unless it is a 3/8" KZ that is close and shot to silver, I don't think it would be a big issue. I  would rather aim at s boogered target than have folks that did not deserve the points, go ahead of those who do. 

Again my opinion only.


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Kidpellet
( @kidpellet )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 41
2020-02-10 16:16:17  

I know what you mean Paul but ranging a dark faceplate at 16x and ranging a nice bright one is totally different than aiming at it once you have it ranged.

That's a little like telling the 12 fpe guys that just got two misses on a target they are confident they hit that the 20 fpe guys that shot it right behind them and got it "that's just part of the class at 12 fpe".

Imo if your going to replace a target then give everyone that missed it a chance to re shoot it if they want.


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Bill Day
( @bill-day )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 184
2020-02-10 19:32:55  

@scotchmo

There is a certain amount of randomness that we can never completely eliminate. In the long run it does not matter because it all averages out. A broken/failed target/string should get replaced. Those are obvious malfunctions. But targets that appear intermittent/questionable/too_close/too_far/too_small? Everyone shot the same targets - so why pull them after the match?

Really Scott, The odds it happens to some shooters more than others I think is pretty high. Some people are lucky as hell and others aren't. I'm not complaining that I am the unlucky one but I do feel it happens to some shooters. To have it occur at a local event is one thing but to have it happen to someone that has traveled over 500 miles and costs for the week end of shooting (Travel, lodging, food, over $100 in registration fees) is not the time to be unlucky. Extra caution should be taken to see everyone plays on a level playing field and not just think it will eventually average out. If I think I made two good shots on a tartget and should of dropped them twice I wouldn't mine paying a reasonable fee if they were verified to be working and I could witness it on a cold line. I recall shooting in a National in Oregon in 2012 that I dropped both of the side hill standing shoots offhand each time. At the end of the event I was in fourth place. I had to leave early to drive 3 hours back to Portland to catch my flight. When the results came out later I ended up in 6th place. I heard something about they gave everyone one of those off hand targets  I hit both times. Shit happens we all know that but I would rather spend a extra hour on the course making sure all the targets are working right than not. I think maybe others would also. Some clubs in the Northeast are experimenting with some new targets made in the UK or somewhere across the pond. If these target are determined to be much more reliable maybe it is time for AFFTA to invest in our FT future.

 


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Scotchmo
( @scotchmo )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 148
2020-02-10 20:36:03  
Posted by: @bill-day
...

Really Scott, The odds it happens to some shooters more than others I think is pretty high. Some people are lucky as hell and others aren't. I'm not complaining that I am the unlucky one but I do feel it happens to some shooters....

The odds of their being an outlier in any large group can be pretty high. But you can't honestly say a particular person will be lucky or unlucky. Luck (good or bad) is always something that you HAD (past tense). Going forward, "luck" is always an unknown and subject to randomness.

"...I would rather spend a extra hour on the course making sure all the targets are working right than not. I think maybe others would also...." +1

Or we can sit around for hours after the match waiting for scores or watching the scoreboard change.


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Bill Day
( @bill-day )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 184
2020-02-11 08:05:09  

Scott, Are you saying there is no better way to improve on this problem … it's part of the game? We have had many conversations on the FT forums about growing the sport and these type of issues don't help it. Any one that gains or wins on these kind of issues shouldn't likely like it either. It 's beginning to be a long winter and it's time to crawl out of our den and complain about something. I just believe we could do something to improve on how potential defective targets are addressed in a much more proactive method than what's going on now.    


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Paul Porch
( @paul-porch )
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 132
2020-02-11 08:35:54  

Bill, 

 

If the bad target is addressed as soon as it fails, then it can be fixed or replaced on the spot. The person re-shoots it and we move on.

No giving of any points to those who have not had the chance to even shoot it or missed one when working.

You shoot Hunter class at 16 power. How do you feel about someone behind you shooting at that fresh, clean  target? 

Hell, in the case of that, shouldn't we  considering the first and second squad  to shoot the first target in a match,t have and unfair advantage?  I don't it's just the game.....

So for me....replace/fix the target in question and re-shoot, Simple. 

If you are going through the exoense of a GP or Nationals, a few extra targets is a small price to pay for a clean match.

Like Leo said, get some 1/2" KZ cheap targets like a Zombie for instance and order some reducers. 

In fact the zombie has so much going on with the faceplate, it is like shooting at a beat up target.....lol


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Will Piatt
( @will-piatt )
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2020-02-11 09:08:08  

Looks like we struck a nerve lol!

I always say I would rather be lucky than good. I have never won a raffle or door prize in 64 years. But in this case luck cuts both ways. If you are "lucky" enough to shoot very high scores the odds of you benefiting from a freebie target are low while the chance of lower scores picking up the point are higher.

Identifying and immediately replacing a defective target and re-shooting at that time is the answer. In my opinion a difference in color or paint wear is acceptable within the normal range of "luck" since lighting and paint wear vary during a match. Friends, keep that rabbit's foot in your pocket and remember alibis are never flattering and no one wants to hear them anyway.


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