Notifications
Clear all

AAFTA - Split Topic  

  RSS

Isledweller
(@isledweller)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 30
September 2, 2020 07:21:41  
Posted by: @dmw

Now if AAFTA would post the results to date this year, that would be nice.  Normal years you could click on history to see where everyone stood in rifle and pistol, but nothing so far this year.

The updated Handbook would be nice too........


Quote
Topic Tags
JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 68
September 14, 2020 15:03:37  

 

@dmw  I submitted the Nevada State match report months ago and if it wasn't for Leo Duran I would have figured the BOG no longer exists...  Apparently the AAFTA email system is broken or something, they never received the match report I submitted in a timely manner and I never received confirmation until I re-emailed everything to Leo (my only contact that is outside the broken AAFTA email system).  And even though Leo has processed my report it has not been posted anywhere that they have accepted the results (Leo isn't part of the BOG any longer and him accepting my report was a gracious move on his part and I am in no way criticizing him in this post, he has gone above and beyond).  I paid my yearly club dues as well and I have zero faith that anyone even knows I paid it, I have the receipt...  Very disappointed that the BOG seems to have taken the year off from their obligations to provide the GP scoring and match results hosting.  These matches cost hundreds out of pocket and i'd like to see that respected by the BOG...

 

@isledweller  The older handbook has been carried over from the previous years since there have been no updates to the rules (well no official updates...that is a much longer story).  You can pretty much assume that unless a new book is published the old one is still in full effect.


ReplyQuote
Jacob W Sumner
(@jacob-sumner)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 51
September 15, 2020 12:00:44  

How much did the website cost again? Where is the champions list from last year? Why is the page a pain in the butt and hard to use for most people? So many more questions get asked at every match attended. When do we drop AAFTA and just fold into the Worlds rules and handbook?

 

Other countries that are further spread than us have better working system throughout the world.

Do they have to mail the same targets to and from matches because the governing body says so? Does WFTF take a percentage off the top of donations, raffles or entry fees? 

 

This has been an issue since I started shooting field target. We did not start the game so who in the hell are we to change the rules? And where the hell does the money actually go? This is a question I have wondered for quite some time now. AAFTA should be in charge of the Hunter class and open class. And WFTF should be separate from those groups entirely. Example: in 2022 we will be hosting the worlds and AAFTA created classes will not even be held. What do you intend on doing then?

 

Now is the time to make a decision on how we go about this. Every club should take time to think this through and make a decision. We are in charge of how it goes by vote.

 

My opinion is AAFTA can run and host all the American style field target matches they want and charge Clubs money for nothing. And run with American style big bore field target. WFTF needs to have its own group and rules to follow. Match fees should go to bettering the club. Club fees should go bettering our WFTF groups ability to send the best possible shooters to world matches. Donations should be decided upon by the match director because they had to chase them down and request them.


ReplyQuote
JimW
 JimW
(@jimw)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 68
September 15, 2020 18:44:17  

Wasn't looking to start a war Jacob... LOL


ReplyQuote
Motorhead
(@motorhead)
Member of Trade
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 132
September 15, 2020 20:53:27  
Posted by: @jacob-sumner

How much did the website cost again? Where is the champions list from last year? Why is the page a pain in the butt and hard to use for most people? So many more questions get asked at every match attended. When do we drop AAFTA and just fold into the Worlds rules and handbook?

 

Other countries that are further spread than us have better working system throughout the world.

Do they have to mail the same targets to and from matches because the governing body says so? Does WFTF take a percentage off the top of donations, raffles or entry fees? 

 

This has been an issue since I started shooting field target. We did not start the game so who in the hell are we to change the rules? And where the hell does the money actually go? This is a question I have wondered for quite some time now. AAFTA should be in charge of the Hunter class and open class. And WFTF should be separate from those groups entirely. Example: in 2022 we will be hosting the worlds and AAFTA created classes will not even be held. What do you intend on doing then?

 

Now is the time to make a decision on how we go about this. Every club should take time to think this through and make a decision. We are in charge of how it goes by vote.

 

My opinion is AAFTA can run and host all the American style field target matches they want and charge Clubs money for nothing. And run with American style big bore field target. WFTF needs to have its own group and rules to follow. Match fees should go to bettering the club. Club fees should go bettering our WFTF groups ability to send the best possible shooters to world matches. Donations should be decided upon by the match director because they had to chase them down and request them.

Go get em TIGER !!

Yup nothing really changes yet so many clubs who shoot FT, have few if any who shoot GP's, let alone State or National championships somehow are held loyal to an organization that does not want to get involved with how things get done.  Operates on donation of time yet collects $1000.00's every year from the Nationals and still nothing gets done for those out west who are shooting FT under there AAFTA affiliation.

 

Big boys clubs of which we are not a part of is more like it.

 

 Flame away !! ... can't hurt we're already on fire !!!!

 

 


ReplyQuote
rich177
(@rich177)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 79
September 16, 2020 08:25:01  

Well I used to get cranked up too but after about 25 years of running and shooting field target matches I don't get too aggravated anymore.  I like our current rules fine but we do allow for an unlimited non-AAFTA class at our matches.  I personally shoot WFTF division but very very few of us will ever shoot internationally so our own rules work okay. We stick with AAFTA because we prefer to run sanctioned/affiliated matches.  We ran one GP and don't plan on running any more.  We put all of our FT energy and  resources into running high quality club level matches.

I understand your concern and I don't like everything AAFTA does or doesn't do however be reminded that AAFTA is all volunteers and you/we all have the option of running for the Board of Governors should we choose to do so. 

 Respectfully submitted,

Richard Bassett

Falls Twsp. R & P Assn.


Welker and phepler thanked
ReplyQuote
Motorhead
(@motorhead)
Member of Trade
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 132
September 16, 2020 12:12:21  
Posted by: @rich177

Well I used to get cranked up too but after about 25 years of running and shooting field target matches I don't get too aggravated anymore.  I like our current rules fine but we do allow for an unlimited non-AAFTA class at our matches.  I personally shoot WFTF division but very very few of us will ever shoot internationally so our own rules work okay. We stick with AAFTA because we prefer to run sanctioned/affiliated matches.  We ran one GP and don't plan on running any more.  We put all of our FT energy and  resources into running high quality club level matches.

I understand your concern and I don't like everything AAFTA does or doesn't do however be reminded that AAFTA is all volunteers and you/we all have the option of running for the Board of Governors should we choose to do so. 

 Respectfully submitted,

Richard Bassett

Falls Twsp. R & P Assn.

O'we have tried .... Lonnie S one of the west coast most respected match directors and individuals final became a member of the BOG a few years ago.  Tried like hell to get better representation for this side of the country, Worked on the AAFTA having a broader insight to where the growth is at, alternate class possibilities to bring more shooters into the competitive sport of field target etc ...

He too is no longer affiliated with the AAFTA BOG for what appears obvious reasons.

 

Our way or No way in our changing world and attitudes is a recipe for stagnation or failure .... IMO     Here in the USA we need an organization that sees growth as its future strength.

 

Times are constantly changing & Change is HARD !!    It's no wonder events that take our modern air guns, those who shoot them and in a format they like to shoot has taken off in recent years leaving the Field Target community in this country just muddling along .. same o'l same o'l 

 

Personally I LOVE FIELD TARGET !!    but am also aware how many don't because of the constraints, some of the rules and class limitations.

In the 6 years we have been running the SVFTC we have had more folks show up, shoot a match or two and never come back than we have active members.  This is not an open statement to invite ridicule we're not doing a good job. We are in FT terms a HUGE club being near 50 members who rotate in & out as the season go's by.

What this says ... AS THE RULES of class's, how and what the game is .... Lacks what many are looking for in an AG shooting sport / game.  In our club matches we break the rules to make it more fun, challenge the experienced without discouraging the less talented.  It's a dance !!!  we match directors do at the local club/ fun match level to find growth and just keep it fun !

 

Scott S

SVFTC 


ReplyQuote
Tom Holland
(@xbowairsniper1200)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 72
September 16, 2020 15:02:53  
  1. Scott,

I do agree with you, AAFTA BOG has been dropping the ball recently in the update department,  they've been almost non existent. 

As far as making WFTF its own entity, it's an honorable thought, but generally not a great idea.  Most of the clubs throughout this country,  no matter where you are, has shooters from all realms .....hunter, WFTF, piston, etc.  Many of these clubs don't have the best turnout, and to further alienate one class from the rest, wouldn't help the sport.

A few years back, I made a list of every competitor that shot any AAFTA match.  From the club level, on up to GP's, and Nationals. The final count was something in the 400+ realm.  Not a big numbers sport,  to say the least.    Almost every country has exponentially more shooters than US does, and this issue isn't a problem. 

I can safely say,  that here on the east coast, there is probably several people from every club that DO go to GP's, thinner numbers for Nationals,  depending upon location.  

Given the low numbers in FT competition in general,  trying to isolate one class from the rest would be fatal to whatever we DO have going in our sport.

In my opinion,  we would grow the sport if we stay united, not trying to splinter off into different entities.   We DO need some sort of future battle plan so we can grow the sport in ALL  classes, and have a BOG that is willing to go forward. 

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 


DRAGON64 and phepler thanked
ReplyQuote
Motorhead
(@motorhead)
Member of Trade
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 132
September 16, 2020 19:32:57  

Tom,

It was not me suggesting WFTF be it's own entity and stand alone in the FT community.

We all can play together .. it is the game and reach of the game we play that is being throttled.  There is nothing wrong with having an alternate game which follows the architecture of what we already have. Actually we already cater to 2 games now being WFTF and the American OPEN & HUNTER.    I'm not going to further piss into the wind with subject and context we all have read before from years past.

As a presumed national organization, have no clue how long this ostrich head in the sand mentality of the AATFA BOG can endure the wanting and wishing for more ... More transparency, More Vision of where there future will be, More involvement of how the game gets played and formatted insuring there is a future in the game while acknowledging possibilities of something even larger.

The CORE of what the current AAFTA has established does not need to change ... but the little box it works within needs to be expanded.


ReplyQuote
Tom Holland
(@xbowairsniper1200)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 72
September 16, 2020 20:13:28  

Scott,

Gotcha, you are 100% correct. 

What might be a good idea,  is to create some kind of true "beginner" class, that would allow a shooter that is just getting their feet wet, to use their Gamo, or Nitro Piston, and be allowed to compete.  

We have so many father/son/younger generations walk away, when they see that a cheap, competitive rig is still well over $700.  Just scares them away.

Anyway,  we, as an organization need to spur something from this.

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 


ReplyQuote
Jacob W Sumner
(@jacob-sumner)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 51
September 17, 2020 09:31:01  

One of the issues we have is no coverage outside of corporations selling products. And or the few people that do what they can to share and bring others into the fold. 

We need larger organizations involved like the NRA. But last time I put this forward the BOG shut it down. I understand that the BOG feels they will lose control of the monies and what gets said or done. But that is stopping us from growing as a sport.

And I agree that competition rifles are way over priced. That being said there are two companies building entry level rifles at the moment. Still gonna be steep for someone who is not committed to joining our games. 

So I retract my split from AAFTA statement but stand on my things need to change within the BOG. And how the monies are spent should be voted on by all clubs.

Another reason we will not grow, We do not sponsor our best shooters to go over seas. Not saying that some don't make the trip on their own dime. But we hold national matches and GP's to see who is the best in said classes that year. 

I think it was $5,800 spent on the website, even though the previous website was just fine. Those monies should have been spent on commercials for the sport or sending our very best to the worlds period. I do not recall a vote on there even being a new website. If I am correct they just went ahead and did it. 

So maybe entry fees from hunter and open class go to AAFTA. And the WFTF goes to sending the best wftf guys over seas? Or try something along those lines. 

We definitely need to revamp how the sport is being put out to the public. 

On another note the GP winners should be first pick at any worlds. Any other sport makes teams play multiple matches (gp's) before they even get to play in the national match. So how can one match held be a decider on someone going to the worlds. Again I understand at this time only shooters that go to the worlds for us pay there own way or are industry shooters (you know who you are). 

Its time for companies to step up and sponsor the best we have each year and send them. Or at least help them get there.


ReplyQuote
rich177
(@rich177)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 79
September 17, 2020 10:11:26  

I think we all want to grow the FT sport but please be reminded that participation in all shooting sports is down.  What that means is that we are trying to get a larger piece of a shrinking pie so to speak.  Also we have grown from nothing to what we have today in about 30 years.  I think the rules and guidelines we currently have are fine and we are still open to run non-AAFTA classes at our local club events if we want.  Anyone who has been at our matches has seen this.  We don't turn people away unless the gun will damage targets and even then we try to get them shooting with someone else.

There are things we can do ourselves to improve the sport.  When setting courses, follow the rules and guidelines to the extent practical.  I think many make courses too difficult.  We try to keep our courses at around 28 Troyer and nobody has cleaned it yet, they will, but not in 10 years!  I see match reports with courses set at Troyers of over 36!  That certainly is not very friendly to a new shooter!

Do we need more classes/divisions?  I don't believe that will help but it will make more work for the guys running the match.  Our club runs IHMSA (pistol silhouette) matches and is only one of two or three in the entire northeast!  IHMSA has umpteen zillion( well almost) classes you can shoot in.  Participation?  Well after tying up the 50, 100, and 200 yard ranges for almost an entire day we might have 7 or 8 shooters total!  Lots of classes has not helped them.

Like everyone else I have lots of opinions but I am out of silver bullets.  Keep running matches and having fun.

Rick Bassett

Falls Twsp. R & P Assn.


DRAGON64 thanked
ReplyQuote
Tom Holland
(@xbowairsniper1200)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 72
September 17, 2020 13:53:32  

Jacob,

I do agree with much of everything you said, you are correct. 

As far as the website, at last year's Nationals in Baton Rouge,  a lengthy discussion ensued about how to grow the sport, and reach out to people,  particularly the younger shooters.  The discussion ended up with many in agreement that an attempt at "marketing the sport", so to speak, was needed.  It was then that most people agreed with the task of creating a new website,  albeit cost and actual expenditures were not discussed.   Personally,  in my opinion,  there was nothing wrong with the old site, it just needed maybe to be revamped a bit, and updated.  Don't know what cost that much, but for a cheap comparison,  I just created a website for myself, supporting my You Tube channel.  I need to update it myself,  and I am not computer savvy,  but if I got a little help, I probably could get it to really shine.  My site cost a fraction of what you stated above.

Rich, I get what you are saying,  but as I mentioned above, the one deterrent that we see at our club here on Long Island,  again, is cost.  As Scott mentioned above,  they have new shooters come, they shoot once or twice,  never to be seen again.  We see that same thing all the time.  When they even see some of the "cheap" rigs that we use, to a beginner,  it's not cheap.  So many people just go out and buy, or already have a $150 breakbarrel gun, and scope, a handful of pellets,  and want to try it.  Due to the higher power of most of these guns, as you mentioned,  they will damage the targets, so they are not able to use them.  Once they see that a "cheap" gun for any class is around $300, and then a $100 scope is needed, and now if it's a PCP, you need another $500 tank and fill setup (or thereabouts), you are now approaching the $1000 realm.  People don't want to spend that much.  We'll get one or 2 sticking around using springers, but that is few and far between.   Much of the newer people introduced to our club, see the many thousands of dollar rigs, and simply walk away, not even wanting to try it, again, due to cost.

I do agree that courses should be as you stated, challenging for the veterans,  but easy enough that a newbie isn't discouraged.   You have a great balance of that, as does Tom Wade, in our club.  We will put out 3 targets per lane, make 1 a gimmee, another a medium,  and another on the hard side.  The better shooters will get high scores, but a beginning shooter will feel accomplished by knocking down a bunch as well.  You seem to have that balance perfected.......except the last time I shot there, you need to put that mosquito back......I need my revenge!!!!!!

Hope to see everyone at a match soon,  shoot straight, 

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 


ReplyQuote
Knobs
(@knobs)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 119
September 17, 2020 16:30:15  
Posted by: @jacob-sumner

 

I think it was $5,800 spent on the website, even though the previous website was just fine. 

 

The cost for the new website was.........wait for it..........$0. I'm not sure what was spent on a previous attempt, but the figure of $350 sticks in my head.

The old website served it's purpose, but times change. A huge percentage (maybe as much as half) of web searches today are done on mobile devices.

The old website was no longer adequate for this environment. It was not just a question of inadequate design for viewing on a small screen, but it was no where near as "mobile friendly" in terms of speed of display as the new website.

i'd suggest that those who have problems with the new website to submit the difficulties they find to AAFTA. 

 

Knobs


ReplyQuote
Jacob W Sumner
(@jacob-sumner)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 51
September 17, 2020 18:35:33  

@knobs The $5,800 was a number heard through the grape vine. I thought it was a very large number as well. But since I have not seen a treasury report or receipt I too took it with a grain of salt. I am sure someone involved could give us exact numbers?


ReplyQuote
Will Piatt
(@will-piatt)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 84
September 17, 2020 20:02:41  

Travel time and expense is one of the biggest barriers as we are so spread out. That is being addressed in in NC and FT is growing. In 7 years it has gone from zero to at least 5 venues to shoot at and increasing numbers of competitors. Numbers at matches may be smaller, but overall more people are shooting every month. Also a lot of people come, try it, and find it is not for them because it is HARD. In addition to great shooting skills in 3 positions it requires physical stamina, mental toughness, coping with weather, and the skills and ability to sort and maintain specialized equipment. Die-hard FT shooters are for the most part very competitive people. The ones that stay are often cross overs from other shooting competition sports. Many a newbe after driving considerable distance has languished in the heat and humidity for a 3 hour match only to find the reality that they have a very long way to go to be near the top and for lack of resilience move to something easier. A frequent "excuse" is cost of equipment. As far as cost, those that want to compete find a way as evidenced by some entry level guns and home brewed builds winning GP's and Nationals. Even if you had a class for the Walmart break barrels they would perform so poorly as to not excite the competitors to continue with the sport.


ReplyQuote
Knobs
(@knobs)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 119
September 17, 2020 20:13:30  

@jacob-sumner

 

OK, the cost was $0.00 LOL. I coordinated with the guy who designed the website when I was on the BOG. It's an exact number.


ReplyQuote
Jacob W Sumner
(@jacob-sumner)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 51
September 17, 2020 20:23:03  

@knobs Thank you for the info. That is a much better price, and I for one can condone such a purchase LOL.

 


ReplyQuote
gonzav
(@gonzav)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 116
September 17, 2020 21:35:03  

Trying to have a venue tailored for both beginners and veterans is tough. My solution was to have one club tailored their matches for veteran shooters while another club for the beginners in which case the veterans will score one or two points from perfect. No matter how I make the course as easy as possible where 2/3 of the targets are under 30 yards with 1 1/2" kill zones. A cheap break barrel spring air rifle will be difficult to shoot well beyond 15 yards. I am leaning towards two-one-zero scoring for beginners. Two points for a knock down while one point for a face plate hit. So far loaning out a PCP rifle setup for field target is the best way to introduce a beginner to the sport.


ReplyQuote
Bill Day
(@bill-day)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 197
September 18, 2020 21:57:48  

@gonzav

Leo, I like the scoring system you suggest. It most likely won't change the match results but it will give newbies maybe a reason not to  get discouraged and come back. I would like to make your 10/4 State championship and bring a Airgun benchrest shooter with me who want to try FT. He'll have his own setup. I also would like to donate a couple of Benjamin Discoveries with scopes and cases to your club. I'm no longer using them and thought maybe your club could make some use of them. They actually are quire accurate and of the 6 or so I have owned I have never had one that leaked. (Knock on wood) Can also say the same about the 4 Maruaders I have owned. So if the weather and CV19 are OK please plan on two of us coming down from Maine in a couple weeks.  

@jacob-sumner

As far as the new AFFTA web site goes I was told that Sean McDaniels created the new one for AFFTA for free. If this is true I think Sean should get the credit for it.  

Bill Day


ReplyQuote
gonzav
(@gonzav)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 116
September 19, 2020 12:29:25  

Bill,

You and your friend are welcome to attend our state match since you are coming from a safe state. Face coverings are required if 6 feet separation is not possible.

As for the donation of PCP rifles, I am happy to accept them. It would definitely help new shooters get into the sport.

Thanks a bunch and look forward to seeing you again.

Leo


ReplyQuote