Wire folding stock for P1/HW45

i bought one of his stock for my LP8 but never mounted it was too short and to tell you the truth forgot i bought it 

the stocks themselves are very nice 

now when you used a Beeman stock on a HW45-P1 you need to raise the front sight about 10mm and they made the sight riser for that 

so if you got the stock i would believe you would have to still raise the front sight 

now remember this is for a Diana LP8

the rear stock reminds me of a FN-FNC paratrooper stock 

are they worth the 70 bucks YES

That's good information. Mine is scoped so if the scope doesn't have enough adjustment, there's always Burris rings and Pos-Align inserts.

Edited to add:

I forgot to ask before; do they lock up nice and tight when extended? When folded, is there any provision to keep them folded?

rock solid 

they spring loaded with a heavy spring

Marflow is correct, anchoring a P1 to your shoulder with a stock pretty much eliminates its recoil motion (which pops the muzzle downward during the shot cycle), so it will shoot VERY high with the original front sight. The good news is...a stock immediately reveals how ridiculously accurate this nifty pistol really is! 😲 

The "pull" dimension with the old Beeman stock is a full 18 inches, giving enough eye relief to comfortably use the stock sights or a pistol scope (stock not mounted in this pic, just lying atop the grip).

The Beeman supplemental sight attaches to the stock blade with a grub screw and is 8mm taller.

Has anyone tried a shoulder stock with a red-dot or scope? Are the internal adjustments of an optic typically able to compensate for how high the P1 shoots?

@rockdoc65

Speculation on my part as I've never done it, but a stocked P1 should work BETTER with a scope.

A springer pistol with rearward-moving piston shoots BELOW the actual line-of-sight when hand-held (because spring surge pops the action forward at the instant of firing, and the top of your hand becomes a fulcrum rocking the muzzle downward).

Look at a P1, Webley Tempest, etc., and you'll see the rear sight is noticeably higher above the bore than the front one for this reason. But "lock out" recoil, and the line-of-sight becomes nearly parallel with the bore - which is what that Beeman front sight does for the P1.

Compare sight alignment of a recoilless FWB 65 to a Tempest, both sighted-in for 10 meters:

@rockdoc65 I have a nice walnut shoulder stock that I bought from Pyramyd Air, years ago and have an older Bushnell Holosight mounted on it... I didn't have any problems sighting it in... shoots really nice in my 42 foot basement range.

and the difference between the metal stocks and the Beeman stocks is length 

the short stocks i see on so many pistols are just that too damn shock 

you have to push your shoulders together to make your reach short enough 

that is why i never mounted the LP8 stock and never figured out or lost interest in putting another 3 to 5 inches of length on it 

i guess some people can work with it but i am not one of those people 

and Mike if you have the high front sight, that needs to get to a 3D printer to scan and produce loan it to Buck Rail he could do it but 3d printing does take to tapping an insert could be added 

i would take 2 

it is interesting the old walnut Beeman stocks if you ever see one go for as much as the pistol 

Well, I ordered one a few days ago. It's coming from Germany by economy shipping so it might take a minute. I'll report back when I know more.

it will give a bit of time to think about if the front sight will work or you will need to make a higher addon sight 

i have in the past thought about making a higher front sight as a project but never did 

a chuck of Delrin or aluminum and a mill would make short work of it 

3D printing as it is now could do it as well but it does not like to be threaded so how to attach would be a problem 

could be made of carbon fiber using square rods, a flat piece and epoxy easy to shape again doesn't thread well but all of that can be found on Ebay out of China 

it will be interesting to see how it works out

Posted by: @rockdoc65

↑

Has anyone tried a shoulder stock with a red-dot or scope? Are the internal adjustments of an optic typically able to compensate for how high the P1 shoots?

I modified a Crosman 1322 stock to fit the P1. I use a low end Red Dot on it and it works fine. I can mostly hit what I aim at now. 😀 

Length of pull is 16 inches.

Good ideas here. Thanks 

Mine is scoped with a 2X Leupold. Why they discontinued that power pistol scope in their line is beyond me. Anyway, I'm not concerned about adjustment range as much as I am about eye relief. I think I can make it work. We'll know later this month. Current delivery estimate is the 23rd.

Well the stock arrived. I tried it and I'm sort of left shaking my head. For starters, the scope had plenty of adjustment range and I was able to re-zero in short order. Also the eye relief of the pistol scope was forgiving enough to shoot effectively with the shoulder stock on. I'll warn you about reading past this point. I had a bit of a crisis of faith, then an epiphany and this will likely be followed up by a garage sale. OK, you've been warned.

I took it up to the cabin so I could re-zero outdoors. I had been told that the points of impact between stocked vs. un-stocked were wildly different and I didn't want to miss the trap in my basement. Turns out this was a good plan. The gun shot a good half-meter high at 10m meters. Took me several shots before I saw the holes in the snow above and beyond my target.

Then I just kept shooting groups waiting for the sizes of my groups to shrink. It didn't happen. I chalked it up to weather and vowed to retest once back at my cozy basement range. I got back home and continued shooting groups. I tried all the combinations of open sights vs scope, standing vs sitting, rested vs offhand. I even tried them again in different orders on different days to eliminate fatigue as a factor. There was no significant difference in group sizes between combinations. It was as if I was just butting up against the theoretical limit of the pistol and it didn't matter how it was sighted, stocked or held.

I know there are too many variables to draw that conclusion. Also, there are a few nagging factors. I don't know the parallax setting of the scope. It's a Leupold "M8-2X EXTENDED E.R." Centerfire handgun hunters were the target demographic for this scope so I'm betting parallax is too far out there for this application, possibly 100 yards, certainly at least 50. So parallax could have prevented me from obtaining an increase in precision. But, I have shot this gun in the past with a red-dot and got similar group sizes, albeit not with the stock.

So that would leave at least two combinations to try yet; a red-dot with the shoulder stock and a rifle scope with adjustable parallax with the shoulder stock. Frankly (and here's that epiphany that I mentioned earlier) I think I just want to shoot this pistol as a pistol and drop all the "extras." You know, the k.i.s.s. method.

Anyone else been down this rabbit hole? Where did you come out?

so, this is disappointing but we did see it coming 

the first think you needed to do is get the open sights to work and you can built a front sight and tape it on to prove to yourself POI has changed and now you have to do the R&D work to figure out what it will take to get your elevation back 

it appears that the stock brings the set higher than a Beeman stock would 

i would work at a short distance say 10 ft and get a big piece of cardboard 

increase the front sight to 10-12mm off the cocking handle and test and if it took 15-17mm find a box for the stock because that would be to much 

the scope has what 20-30 MOA and close up that is very little in inches, you would need some adjustable rings and they are not cheap but could gain you 20 MOA or more 

you have to go from God dammit this doesn't work, to what is going to take 

or just bin the damn thing 

it looks great 

so rear sight all the way down and make the front sight taller and i would start at 15mm because if that doesn't work then you will know right off the start 

mike in Washington

Mike, I think you are missing something or perhaps I wasn't clear as I could have been.

Under no set of circumstances or combination of components was I unable to get the rig zeroed. By that I mean that I was always able to bring the point of aim to the point of impact. All options had plenty of adjustment range.

My problem was group size. It never changed. Iron sights, scope (or not), shoulder-stock (or not), didn't matter. Always the same size group. So my point was; why bother with all the accessories if they offer no benefit over open-sights and a good two-handed, unsupported shooting position?

This has been a relatively inexpensive experiment to see if any gains could be made. Maybe some people are getting better than 1.25" groups at 25 feet with the P1 but that seems to be my limit regardless of sighting method or stock option.

The question now is; do I halt the experiment or continue and explore a red-dot with the stock? The problem there is, I no longer own a red-dot.

I think I'm kind of done with this project but I am curious what others have found and if there was still any curiosity out there on this topic.

okay got it now i was under the thought it was just shooting high 

so you thought that the stock was going to tighten up your groups because of the stock 

i am an old I.P.S.C. shooter and i shot 1911 .45acp and was taught to use a Weaver stance  

your strong hand pushed and your weak hand pulled and that made a strong frame work 

the thought was that the only thing that should move was the cuffs of your pants 

now with a short shoulder stock your arms are compressed to the point that for me it is impossible to shoot a pistol 

so would a red dot be better maybe but a reflex would be my choice and at Amazon they have them in dovetail 

Amazon.com : Kexuan Mini Reflect Red/Green Dot Sight wih 4 Reticle Patterns, for Dovetail : Sports & Outdoors

now is an 1.250 inches group bad at 25 ft with a HW45 i would say no it is not but with a HW75 it could be 

what a reflex sight gives you is field of view they are light, those have both red and green and many sight pictures and i have 5 or 6 of them and they come in all sorts of brands but they all the same 

.177 i assume, can be a tricky pistol to shoot and know i have 2 with all the barrels 

so not much help 

i think you thought the stock would help with accuracy but it didn't and believe me we have all tried stuff that didn't work as you hoped it would but give up is not what i think should happen and if you have some RWS R-10's in 7.0 give them a go 

all i have 

mike 

Well the stock is supposed to be more accurate due to a more solid hold on the gun. Whether you use Weaver, Isosceles or the Fighting (my preferred) stances, you only have two points of contact with the gun, your hands. Since both your hands are holding the gun at the same point, this is, in effect, only one point of contact.

With the shoulder stock you have four points of contact with the pistol, two hands at different points on the gun, your shoulder and your cheek. This not only stabilizes the gun to your body but your sights to your eye. This is all supposed to transform your pistol into a mini-carbine. Only for me, there doesn't seem to be any advantage. At least not where group size is concerned.

My working hypothesis is this. The P1 is still a springer. While the stock drastically tames the muzzle dip upon firing it now offers four chances (your points of contact) to negatively interfere with the shot cycle instead of one or two as in pistol mode. Four points of contact that you now have to replicate identically with each shot.

I am also considering that it increases size, weight, cost and storage requirements as you now need a bigger case. Add to that, the process of converting back and forth from pistol to carbine requires tools and takes several minutes.

Given the unmeasurable gains combined with increased complexity, the experiment is over for me. I'll stick with a naked gun, if you will forgive the movie reference/pun. But this is just mostly one mans opinion. I expect the results will vary by individual. I'd actually be interested in seeing what results others get.

Keep an eye out for a garage sale.