Ok, so after a lot of thought and going back and forth with my decision I’ve decided I want to buy a new .22 springer. I have narrowed it down to an HW and have found after scouring the internet that Krale has the best prices by far, even with shipping. Now I can’t make up my mind which HW I want.
I’ll be mostly target shooting in my backyard but want the ability to possibly hunt so I want a .22. It would probably just be squirrels but I live in a country setting and would like to ability to kill a raccoon if needed.
I’ve posted a few times about my other springer, I have a ‘93 Diana 34 that I’m still working on finding the right pellet for. I also have a .177 Rws 34.
I think I’d like an underlever, mainly because it’s something different from what I own. I’ve never owned a “high quality” springer, I had a BAM 34 clone and have the 2 Rws/diana’s. The ones I’m considering are the 97, the 77, or maybe the 50s. I’ve also considered the 95. It looks like I could get a 97 or 77 for about $400, unless I went with the extremely fancy blue stock.
So with those parameters what would you get? Are the 77 and 97 basically the same? Are any of them that much better than the 34 that I would notice?
DISCLAIMER: I am an unashamed diehard underlever fan.
I would recommend an HW77K. I have had them all and it's my favorite by a long shot. It's the absolute universal springer. You'll find the HWs better finished and a little more heavy-duty feeling than the RWS. The 77/97 will be about the same power wise, but the added weight will make them very easy to shoot accurately compared to the RWS.
For me, I'd get it in .177. I've had a bunch of Weihrauchs in .22 and they all were very pellet picky and not as accurate as the .177s. Not a thing wrong with a .177 for hunting anyway. I wouldn't shoot raccoons with either caliber from any of those guns personally.
Get what you think fits your needs best. The 77/97 are the best a guy could ever want IMO. My favorite are the old ones. They are a little slimmer feeling and I just like the stocks.
The Weihrauchs are a step up in quality from your Dianas. Nothing against them - definitely a great, high quality German gun, but the HW's are nicer.
The HW50 is a mid-power springer: in its factory state, it's a going to be 10-12 fpe in .22. Personally, I think they are too hard to cock for the power they produce, but that's just me. And not quite enough for a raccoon, at least by my standards.
The HW77 and 97 are the same internally, but the 77 has a different stock (lower checkpiece) and open sights. Internally, they are the same, so unless you have plans to use irons, it probably makes more sense to get the 97. From the factory, expect about 15fpe in .22, tuned you can get 16-17, maybe more (but I wouldn't recommend it).
The 95 has a very similar powerplant and makes about the same power. Between the 97 and 95, I'd say it depends on preference - 97 is going to be very steady, but heavy, whereas the 95 is much more trim - similar to your Diana 34. I generally prefer brakebarrels, but you already have a nice BB, so I like your thought process of trying an underlever this time. Ultimately, it's hard to go wrong with an most of the HW line, especially the HW97.
Then I'd start saving up for a 95, HW30, TX200....it never ends. And, for my money, instead of an HW50, I'd consider a vintage FWB124. About the same power, way easier to cock, and incredible FWB quality. No, the trigger is not as good as the rekord, but there is a reason a lot of people love em!
Limbshaker, two gorgeous guns. Really like the vintage 77 - love those Goudy stock lines! The second gun looks great too - appears to be walnut furniture on that one.
I always thought if I was in the market for a 97 this would be my choice, I guess it was from my black gun shooting days
https://www.krale.shop/en/weihrauch-hw97-black-line-stl.html
a little more durable I always thought but don't get me wrong a great looking stock is just that, until it's not and the silver finish is easier to deal with then blue, just a thought
https://www.weihrauch-sport.de/spring-piston-underlever-cocking?lang=en
Im also a big fan of the 97 when it comes to springers. I like .177 though in all my springers. I just think you don't get the power needed to hunt game such as a raccoon with a springer. Im not a fan of pushing a spring gun to 20ft lbs to hunt with,,,,,just too harsh of a shot cycle and not fun to cock all day if shooting from a bench. Ive shot plenty of birds rabbits and squirrels with springers but i limit the size to these animals.
Thanks for the thoughts so far. I think I'll rethink my .22 idea, seems like. 177 is in general more accurate and doesn't seem like either would help with a racoon.
I considered the Diana side levers but they just seem clunky looking to me. I'm definitely leaning toward the 97 although that 77 pictures is really nice looking
Anybody have a vintage 77 they want to sell?
It is weird though, I've noticed that because of the low krale prices the used market is actually as expensive or more than the new ones.
A gun no one has mentioned is the 57. It got a bad rap early in production because of misaligned loading devices ( I can't remember what you call that thing that pops up) but I like the gun. It is like a smaller and lighter HW77 with power similar to the R9. It is basically an under-lever version of the R9.
David Enoch
I have no experience with the HW underlevers and since they've been well represented I'll speak up for the break barrels. I have both the HW50S and a Beeman R9, which is the same as the HW95 Luxus. Both are in .177, mainly because I prefer that caliber but also because of the reports I've read about the .22 HW barrels being slightly oversized making them more pellet fussy. As other have said, I wouldn't recommend either for shooting a raccoon. I'd limit them to rabbit & squirrel sized game.
I like the HW50S very much. It's quite possibly my favorite springer. Some say it's hard to cock for the power it puts out but I don't find it that bad at all, especially once it's broken in. And considering the boost in power over the HW30S, I find it just as accurate as my 30S. I also find it very easy to shoot accurately, too. Mine is putting out about 10.25ft-lbs with a JM kit in it. Rabbit and squirrel should be no problem with good shot placement if you keep the max distances around 25yds or so.
The R9/HW95 is a proven hunter and a pretty good informal target shooter as well. I'm impressed with the accuracy from mine and it's not too hard to get that accuracy, either. The shot cycle is much calmer than my 34 Pro Compact was in factory form, it was very jumpy when shot. In factory form it's putting out right at 15ft-lbs with the 7.87gr Air Arms Express.
So, if I were making your decision, my choice would be between the 77K and the R9/95 Luxus. I'd be looking at the 77K over the 97 due to it giving the option of using open/peep sights if wanted. The R9/95 is lighter which is a plus for it and has better power than the 50S for hunting. And being a break barrel may be a little quicker/easier to load in a hunting situation than the 77/97. If you forget about wanting to take the occasional raccoon with one, either of them should easily be up to what you want to do. And to be honest, I don't think you'd go wrong whichever one you choose. It all comes down to personal preference.
Ok, so after a lot of thought and going back and forth with my decision I’ve decided I want to buy a new .22 springer. I have narrowed it down to an HW and have found after scouring the internet that Krale has the best prices by far, even with shipping. Now I can’t make up my mind which HW I want.
I’ll be mostly target shooting in my backyard but want the ability to possibly hunt so I want a .22. It would probably just be squirrels but I live in a country setting and would like to ability to kill a raccoon if needed.
I like the HW95 in .22 caliber. It's nice out of the box, and easily-tune-able for more than OEM power if your hunting distance or quarry calls for that.
As far as .22 ammo, there are enough good selections that I don't think you'd have a problem finding a good one that works in your rifle. That's been my experience with the caliber and the rifle.
Limbshaker, two gorgeous guns. Really like the vintage 77 - love those Gowdy stock lines! The second gun looks great too - appears to be walnut furniture on that one.
Thanks bud!
Those Goudy stocks were always my favorite. Simple, clean and slim.
The bottom one is actually an original Venom Vantage HW77K. Got lucky and finally found one.
Speaking of Goudy stocks-I picked up an R10 deluxe stock at a show and fitted it to my R9 with a very minor amount of inlet work. Absolutely love it.
Hey John57,
That's a great photo. I was just thinking to myself that, that photo would make for a great cover shot for a Beeman Catalog!
I myself do prefer the looks of the older Beeman / Goudy stocks.
Kingston,
One must consider all price factors when purchasing from Krale. Shipping fees, credit card international fees, import/ broker fees all add up to the cost of product. With that said, yes, HW models 97/77 from Krale can be purchased at an incredible savings other Hw models not so much and a prudent shopper can at times find better deals. What I do find amazing is their shipping service second to none.
Cheers
Here is another, the HW85 last time I checked it came with the better globe front sight with the inserts, and less expensive than the 95. fwiw Joe
https://www.krale.shop/en/weihrauch-hw85.html
Well, my search took a completely unexpected turn. I found a refurbished used TX200 for a great price so looks like I won’t be getting an HW anytime soon. Will probably get one eventually, I’ve read way too much about the Rekord trigger to not experience one myself one day. Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions.
If you intend to humanely kill racoons then I would suggest something like an RWS 54 or 56 or 350 at the very least. Otherwise an HW90 (gas piston) but it would be difficult to shoot.
If you want a good bang for the buck German springer for your hunting needs then the Walther Parrus in 22 caliber would be something worth looking into.
Since you mentioned killing racoons then I suggest something with more power.
The TX and HW underlevers in 22 are like shooting less power than a P-Rod and IMHO not enough for humanely taking out racoons reliably.
HA
Since the OP went the TX route, I guess the original topic is moot. Just a couple observations:
I have a Walther LGV and it's about the best heavy break barrel springer in my modest accumulation. All the modifiers apply, including "heavy", since it is 7+ lb rifle, and so I don't consider it in the same class as HW50.
I am a little surprised to hear we need a '54 or '350 to humanely kill racoons. I think we need a really good shot to kill racoons, but wouldn't hesitate to shoot with an RWS34 or a host of other springers in that power category. Part of the equation might be the range at which I'd consider doing so, but at 35 yards I'd think this is well within their capacity.
Shot both eyes out of one the other night with the R9 .177 Supermags, marginal is the right word.
Just not enough penetration with wadcutters, and not enough damage with domes.
Heavy domes are great for emptying the live trap, but less impressive out there.
I LOVE the gun, basically only shoot R9 and Red Ryder anymore, but it's no framing hammer.
54 in .22 does much better, Hatsan 135 .22 is almost a real gun
There is a 22 caliber barrel assembly with compression linkage and breech seal for a Diana 34 clone for sale for $50 shipped on another airgun website classifieds with a listing posted "Diana 34 .22 cal clone barrel with weight muzzle".
Hmmm... I could have sworn I saw it yesterday for $40 shipped. HMMMMMM?
HA
Now I'm looking in a completely different direction. How do Walther lgv or lgu's compare?
I have the Walther LGV Master Pro in both .177 & .22. I absolutely love the platform. The barrel has a positive lockup system that is ultra rock solid and is the closest thing you’ll get to an underlever in a breakbarrel. Heavy? Yes, but so are others. It has a threaded barrel and I have sleeved it with Carbon Fiber and added a DonnyFL Tanto.
The .22 is very new to me, and So the jury still out. The .177 is laser accurate. I have taken Chipmunks with head shots out to 30 yards (a Chipmunk head is small) have taken numerous squirrels with both head and body shots. It’s set at 12fpe with a Vortek spring in it.
Can be gotten new from Krale in like 4 days.
I have a 10 meter vintage LGV and a newer hard to find LGV Competition Ultra both in 177 and I must say they are a joy to shoot. I have not ventured into buying an LGU yet. My HW97s and 77s and TX200 are telling me not to. I prefer the TX200 and HW triggers better compared to the current Walther sporter though with the exception of the vintage 10 meter LGV I have which is better FYI...
HA
I have a 10 meter vintage LGV and a newer hard to find LGV Competition Ultra both in 177 and I must say they are a joy to shoot. I have not ventured into buying an LGU yet. My HW97s and 77s and TX200 are telling me not to. I prefer the TX200 and HW triggers better compared to the current Walther sporter though with the exception of the vintage 10 meter LGV I have which is better FYI...
HA
Question about your Competition Ultra: it comes with the iron sights, no? Can they be removed? I really like the stock, but I shoot with scopes only. That’s why I got the Master Pro. Would have loved to get the action of the Master Pro in a Competition Ultra stock in .177. Wonder if they are compatible? (OK, a few questions) Thanks!
I have a 10 meter vintage LGV and a newer hard to find LGV Competition Ultra both in 177 and I must say they are a joy to shoot. I have not ventured into buying an LGU yet. My HW97s and 77s and TX200 are telling me not to. I prefer the TX200 and HW triggers better compared to the current Walther sporter though with the exception of the vintage 10 meter LGV I have which is better FYI...
HA
Question about your Competition Ultra: it comes with the iron sights, no? Can they be removed? I really like the stock, but I shoot with scopes only. That’s why I got the Master Pro. Would have loved to get the action of the Master Pro in a Competition Ultra stock in .177. Wonder if they are compatible? (OK, a few questions) Thanks!
Yes has open sights but the front sight is integral to the barrel end piece that you screw your LDC onto and if you take the front sights off, you lose your ability to screw on your LDC and will have an unthreaded naked barrel showing. I believe its purpose is to be a barrel weight as well. Also helps as a cocking aid too that end piece with the sight/threaded end is pretty long.
This gun is pretty heavy for a break barrel gun and perhaps even heavier than my HW97k.
I believe the actions are interchangeable among the stocks for both.
HA
Hope this works, never posted pics here before.
That is a really nice gun! Looks like you have an aftermarket add on, does it help?
HA
Sorry, just saw this. I removed the weight and installed a Carbon Fiber sleeve, then threaded on the DonnyFL Tanto. Yes, it makes a difference, absolutely love what I have done with it. I hope to review it at some point, but life is very hectic these days, 3 small children, wife, job, taxes, house.......
Good for you. If you don't use open sights get the TX if you are hunting and wanna use open sights get the Diana 54 (most power or the 77 K). The 54 is the only gun that needs no tune and way more power if that's what you want. The HW is 3rd place for me. But if you do go HW get the HW95 or the 77K. Believe it or not the The TX trigger is better than the record IMO. The last gun I would get would be the 77 long barrel. talk about follow thru. Its ridiculous with that rifle. I hope I don't get hatemail. PS the dianas have the worst trigger of the 3 but still good and the only springer with monster power and good accuracy.
Jim the R1 is a gun I have never owned so I am clueless about it and the beeman Kodiak and 1,000 others. Theres almost no way to try em all. I drove a ways and looked at an R1 one time and it was super rusty and I offered the guy $150 for it and he said he already had an offer of $300 and I told him he should have sold right then and there. it was down by the beach in California and it must have set outside for a year.
I have to add that I like the trigger on my TX200 better than on my HW guns but it is NOT an out of the box stock unmolested TX200.
I had a TX a while ago and parted with it because I didn't like how it cocked and shot cycle.
It wasn't tuned. The effort to cock it was pretty darn hard IMO compared to my HW77s and 97s.
I later bought a tuned 12fpe TX200 with a history of doing very well in FT competitions and boy is this one super easy to cock! It is easier to cock than all of my HW77 and 97s and most are tuned.
This TX200 can be shot all day long without any fatigue.
HOWEVER, I REALLY don't like the beartrap on it. I would rather have it like the HWs which you don't need to press that lever to close the underlever home.
For some strange reason, I have had the best luck consistently hitting everything that I aimed at using my HW77s (full length and K carbines) more than any of these other underlever rifles.
The weakest shooting HW77k I had was the easiest to shoot accurately. I think it was only shooting at around 730fps in 177. It wasn't tuned but very well used.
The RWS 54 is a beast to shoot all day long and is super heavy to carry around especially with a scope which this gun likes to eat for breakfast lunch and dinner so get a good quality scope with UTG drooper picatinny mount. It is best for bench bag shooting. That gun is definitely NOT backyard friendly.
On a positive note, the RWS54 is probably the easiest to shoot accurately at longer distances when shooting off of a rest and has great killing power in a self contained gun. You don't need to try too hard to accurately shoot this one.
I have strong temptations to have my 177 54 detuned to 12fpe. I would leave my 22 alone though.
HA
I'm a huge HW fan. You can't go wrong with almost any model depending on budget and intended use. Be careful with Krale though. Their prices can be great depending on the item but there can be a hidden "cost". I've had three separate transactions with them and their customer service has been nothing short of abysmal. You are just a number and on the other side of the world no less.
