Want a good quality...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Want a good quality magnum Springer

110 Posts
29 Users
19 Likes
46.5 K Views
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

I re-entered air gun shooting (mostly backyard) earlier this year. I would like to have a 20+ fpe gun for distance shooting. I need experienced info to decide which gun and which caliber.


   
ReplyQuote
sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 620
 

I'll cut to the chase since you'll be receiving a lot of posts like this:

1.  Recommend a sub 20+ fpe springer, then tune.

If you are practical and want to pull the gun out of the box then start killing, this is it:

 

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Weihrauch_HW90_Breakbarrel_Air_Rifle/2358

 

.177 or .22 will be fine.  I use Baracuda's in the .177 and .22 FTT in the other. 

Buy a bkl260 one piece mount to keep the scope on it.  The RX series of guns are so effective that I'm desperate for new squirrels to move into the area. 

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@hotair)
California
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 891
 

22 caliber RWS model 54 or model 56. Realistic 100 yard capable shooters for sure. Nothing can reliably hit stuff out past 100 yards in the Springer category besides these 2 that are currently made.


   
ReplyQuote
Doug_Wall
(@doug_wall)
New York
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 297
 
Posted by: @chemclay

I reentered air gun shooting(mostly backyard)earlier this year. I would like to have a 20+ fpe gun for distance shooting. I need experienced info to decide which gun and which caliber.

Distance shooting at what??? If you're punching paper, hitting cans, or steel targets, your requirements are going to be different than if you are trying to shoot Woodchucks.

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

I shoot targets; shotgun, rifle, pistol. I quit hunting when our pheasants disappeared. I rediscovered air guns and my backyard during "lockdown". In April, I bought a HW 50s, in July, a HW 97k both in .177. I shoot both between 10 and 50 yards and enjoy the distance challenge. This is a great sport. I'd like to be able to shoot out to 75+ yards, but have no interest in PCPs.


   
ReplyQuote
timjohnston
(@timjohnston)
Nebraska
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 102
 

You have been infected with the magnumitest bug. Very costly but curable. 50 yards in not "distance shooting" with a springer. Any quality springing will do the trick, just follow Sonnysan's advice about a well tuned gun in sub 20ft lbs. The HW97 has been hitting small round holes at 55 yards in FT for a very long time. In NRA air rifle silhouettes the rams have fallen at 45 yards for many years as well. Silhouette is shot off hand standing. For you early Yellow forum members, what was the guy's name in California who had ton's of kill's at up to 70 yards on ground squirrel's with a R7 in .177?  Don't let power blind you to what a proper tuned and glassed 800-875 fps gun will do with the correct pellets. And don't overlook the performance of the .20 caliber. I have 2 tuned .20 cal springer's. A HW97 and a original RWS 34 both will shoot sub 1 inch groups at 50 yards. Good luck.

 

tim

.

 


   
ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Ohio
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 764
 
Posted by: @timjohnston

For you early Yellow forum members, what was the guy's name in California who had ton's of kill's at up to 70 yards on ground squirrel's with a R7 in .177?

Robert Hamilton I think you are referring to. He was ostracized by many members for his claims. He was a good writer IMO. As to his creditability, I myself thought how could much of that be? What is the available energy left from an R7 at those ranges? I don't outright dispute publicly without proof though, to that which 'I' do not understand.

To be that accurate (with enough FPE) it seems like a challenge to cover all the various ranges without some serious holdover or much precise clicking of the turret.

How much energy is left from an R7/HW30 at 70yds? Heavy .177's seem to be the way to go but in my mind something much greater than an R7. Having said that, I wouldn't mind at all being proven wrong.


   
ReplyQuote

marflow
(@marflow)
Washington
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1594
 

a Diana 350 could work for you, you can put a kit in them to go up or down 

and when you fire them you know it 

they can be hold sensitive but practice will solve that problem 

make sure it has the T01 trigger not the  T05 that are on sale 

it is and mans rifle 

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Diana_RWS_350_Magnum/396#9413


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@boscoebrea)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 406
 

Thank you for asking,I will put my 40 years of experience of  shooting springers forward for you.

   My most powerful stock springer is the RWS model 52,the 48 is the same....177.A side lever,that is also accurate.

  Do not believe 100 yd. shooting with any springer,you are going to have trouble at 25 yds. until you have a lot of practice.

  My English made Tomahawk.22 is another accurate powerful springer,very hard to obtain now.

  HW97.22 great springer,always available, it is an under lever.

  R9...another great springer...

 How strong are you?Do you have enough patience to become proficient in shooting a springer at a long distance,if so chose one of the above springers.

  Now .177 or .22...for powerful springers I like .22 because It can shoot heavier pellets =which tend to calm down the shooting cycle.

  A .177 can be better for longer distance shooting.

 Do not forget a good  springer scope and mounts.

 The Tomahawk would be my first pick,put you can't get an English made one now,the HW97 is my second pick,the 52 for shooting game...the R9 was my favorite for years and you can't go wrong with it.

  I have a lot more springers... the less powerful ones can be just as much fun....

   The object is trying to become proficient before frustration brings a halt to your patience.


   
A_O_Martinez reacted
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  
Posted by: @timjohnston

You have been infected with the magnumitest bug. Very costly but curable. 50 yards in not "distance shooting" with a springer. Any quality springing will do the trick, just follow Sonnysan's advice about a well tuned gun in sub 20ft lbs. The HW97 has been hitting small round holes at 55 yards in FT for a very long time. In NRA air rifle silhouettes the rams have fallen at 45 yards for many years as well. Silhouette is shot off hand standing. For you early Yellow forum members, what was the guy's name in California who had ton's of kill's at up to 70 yards on ground squirrel's with a R7 in .177?  Don't let power blind you to what a proper tuned and glassed 800-875 fps gun will do with the correct pellets. And don't overlook the performance of the .20 caliber. I have 2 tuned .20 cal springer's. A HW97 and a original RWS 34 both will shoot sub 1 inch groups at 50 yards. Good luck.

 

tim

.

 

Do air guns have to be tuned to shoot well? I have shot sub one inch groups at 50 yds with both my 50s and 97k(neither tuned); I would love to send a 14 gr pellet at 850fps. The price and specs of some air guns should indicate they can do it; but I don't know.


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@bill_s)
Wisconsin
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 460
 

I mostly shoot at 80 yards. That's the distance from my deck to the wood line where I have a couple bell targets and can put up paper as well. 

I shoot a Beeman R1, Beeman R10 both in .177 cal. English Webley Tomahawk in .25 cal. Diana 35 and 27 in .177. You can do it but you obviously need to account for the drop a little differently with each rifle. Most of my rifles are zeroed at 25 yards and I use mil dot scopes. I also have a PCP in .22 cal that is zeroed at 80 yards.


   
ReplyQuote
timjohnston
(@timjohnston)
Nebraska
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 102
 

@chemclay . No they do not, but they will shoot better (Smoother) 9 out of 10 tunes are done for smoothness.  Once you go down that  Rabbit hole (Tuned Springer) you will not go back. The gun is not anymore accurate than it was un-tuned, it is just that more pleasant to shoot. Evan a home tune is a vast improvement. If you feel comfortable taking a spring gun down (Lot's of good vids and help here and online elsewhere). A simple cleaning and lubing with surprise you. If you want to delve in to it, the hw50 is the perfect first candidate. Get a JM tune kit and lubes.


   
ReplyQuote
timjohnston
(@timjohnston)
Nebraska
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 102
 

@straitflite Correct Robert Hamilton was his name. I also remember the crap he caught. Seems there was a witness to his shooting  just before he quit posting.

 

 

tim

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 
Posted by: @chemclay

I reentered air gun shooting(mostly backyard)earlier this year. I would like to have a 20+ fpe gun for distance shooting. I need experienced info to decide which gun and which caliber.

Chemclay;

Thanks for opening a new thread.

If you have recently come back to airgunning, perhaps you might want to read this:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/its-all-about-accuracy  

It will detail the accuracy requirements for different forms of shooting. Though the article is some years old, it still holds plenty good info.

Most of the improvements in the last years have been in the pellets, so the requirements have not changed but now there are more pellets that can meet those requirements.

In all fairness, it is NOT a question of shooting the occasional 1 MOA 50 yards group. Shooting that's Accurate enough for hunting or competition requires CONSISTENCY. And it is usually the case that it is easier for most shooters to acquire consistency with a lower powered springer than with a real magnum.

With enough practice you CAN become proficient and consistent with almost any gun, it's just more enjoyable and easily attainable with a tuned gun.

Now, the EXCEPTION, is the sled equipped guns (FWB300, DIANA 54 and DIANA 56) that make it easy on the shooter (but hard on the scopes). Without the felt recoil, it is easier to practice and practice and practice.

In particular, the D54 (AirKing Pro in its current version), is VERY capable of shooting out to 100 yards in 0.22" with the right pellet and even in an OEM condition, as long as the "running in" process has been carefully done.

I DOUBT GREATLY that, even if the 54 is your first gun it will be your last, LOL! But I like suggesting it as a starting point because it is easy for practiced firearms shooters to shoot well with one. My experience is that shooters that start with a 54 will go on to shoot a number of other airguns, just to return to the 54 after some years.

Some shooters never shoot a 54, they are not cheap, they are heavy, powerful and require some measure of physical fitness to operate in full power mode, but those that are in good physical shape and can handle it, seldom go back to other airguns for serious pursuits.

I've been shooting most anything that can be shot from the shoulder for over 50 years, and airguns for the last 20. Teaching and coaching shooters for almost as long. A professional gunsmith for the last 7 years, I have customized most quality airguns at different power levels and for different objectives. So, I usually start my projects for customers with a single question:

"Exactly WHAT you want the gun to do?"

 

Of course, opinions are worth what you pay for them, so this is my $0.02 worth.

 

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM

 


   
ReplyQuote

Avatar
(@harvey)
Minnesota
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 199
 

I believe Robert Hamilton shot an HW55, mostly.

Wasn't it Tom Jue who shot with him?  Seem to recall reading a page on the old Airgun Letter which had a few hunt storiess by them.  Although if I also remember correctly, Tom Jue shot a '57 Sheridan.  Rabbit story maybe?

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

"Exactly WHAT do you want the gun to do?"

Great question I can actually answer. I've been shooting my two HWs out to 50 m. I would like a "springer" that can shoot accurately out to ~80 m. I don't want to modify or smith the gun. I would rather pay fairly for an out of box gun that meets my needs.


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@stevep-52)
New York
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 274
 
Posted by: @chemclay

"Exactly WHAT do you want the gun to do?"

Great question I can actually answer. I've been shooting my two HWs out to 50 m. I would like a "springer" that can shoot accurately out to ~80 m. I don't want to modify or smith the gun. I would rather pay fairly for an out of box gun that meets my needs.

HW90 .22 should do everything you're wanting one to 🙂


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

HW90 .22 should do everything you're wanting one to ?

thought about that, but I've heard it called a "horse"; very hard to cock, and needs $500 worth of pumping equipment to regulate it.it


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@josh3rd)
Pennsylvania
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 278
 

From my experiences shooting at a hundred yards with air guns, well I shot plastic water bottles at 95 yards with my HW 95 in 22 cal. I shot my pro sport which is in 177 cal at 100 yards at cans. amAs Hector Medina stated above the RWS 54 is a easy platform to shoot with but then with its limiting effects of recoil to the shooter it will not help you shooting a regular spring gun or piston gun because of the way they need or want it to be held.

 

But to me the best all around 100-yarder would be the hw90/rx2. Why?e Because you can adjust it's power level. But you can even have fun shooting R7, HW 50 or anything at a hundred yards. 


   
ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Ohio
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 764
 

thought about that, but I've heard it called a "horse"; very hard to cock, and needs $500 worth of pumping equipment to regulate it.it

Can anyone kinda elaborate on the $500 worth of supporting equipment? I've contemplated the HW90 in a couple calibers. I like the thought of nothing left to do but scope it.

Funny how time slips by...none has given the R1 a single nod.


   
TnAirgunner reacted
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@bill_s)
Wisconsin
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 460
 
Posted by: @straitflite

thought about that, but I've heard it called a "horse"; very hard to cock, and needs $500 worth of pumping equipment to regulate it.it

Can anyone kinda elaborate on the $500 worth of supporting equipment? I've contemplated the HW90 in a couple calibers. I like the thought of nothing left to do but scope it.

Funny how time slips by...none has given the R1 a single nod.

I shoot my home tuned. 177 cal R1 at 80 yards all the time. Could go to 100 but .22 cal would be a better choice. 

R9/HW 50 could do 100 yards but you have to allow more for the drop and it can't be very windy. So can do and best for the job are 2 different things. 100 yard break barrel with no additional investment? I'd put an R1/HW80 in there in .22 cal. 

 


   
kdhope reacted
ReplyQuote

Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

@straitflite

pump and gauge to adjust power level


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

How does the Sig asp20 in .22 compare with the guns mentioned?


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@josh3rd)
Pennsylvania
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 278
 

The sig is awesome. But if you decide you want to do anything to it, you can't . If you send it into sig for repair it's like starting all over again on a new rifle.

So in my opinion again the rx2 full-size hw90 is your best bet because you can change barrels and the pressure in the ram. What else could you want?


   
ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Ohio
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 764
 

@chemclay

pump and gauge to adjust power level

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Pressure_Gauge_for_HW90_and_RX2/7145

https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/tuning-kits/weihrauch-hw90-gauge/

https://www.bestfittings.co.uk/shop/airgun-charging-equipment/charging-pumps/theoben-weihrauch-hw90-gas-ram-charging-pump-kit/

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=95707.0

All kinds of ways to skin that cat for much less than $500. I would hope to receive a 90 not requiring immediate attention, but yes you could set it to R7 like power or HW90 like power. Rams are a little more stout on the cocking side of things. Many choices given here & now the fun of choosing begins.

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

straitflite: does this mean you will be getting a 90?


   
ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Ohio
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 764
 

@chemclay

Could be, but I thought this was about helping you find a choice? I was pointing out that publicly saying you need an additional $500 to own one is in fact wrong.


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  
Posted by: @straitflite

@chemclay

Could be, but I thought this was about helping you find a choice? I was pointing out that publicly saying you need an additional $500 to own one is in fact wrong.

Yes, thank you I see that. I'm hoping you share your reasons for considering the 90.


   
ReplyQuote

straitflite
(@straitflite)
Ohio
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 764
 

@chemclay

Sorry for the confusion. You did ask for experienced shooters with said equipment, in your OP. I think at least I for one drifted from that. My attempt with the 90 was to not let you be discouraged with a high additional costs. I found that info in less than 3 minutes. I would think (please ask others) that the 90 would be good right from the box. The rifle started as the Beeman RX1, then RX2 & now HW90. In a long list of guns that have come and gone, this one has survived it all for many years now. I used to have a Gas rammed Theoben Eliminator and I loved the gun but had to sell it. Didn't do much long range tests with it though. However, it was a .20 and a laser from hell.

I have a few mid powered, somewhat hotly tuned, and want a long range gun myself again. Some folks currently and in the past have had R1's tuned to over 22 FPE and love 'em. Low power springers aren't necessarily more accurate just more tame making them seem so. I have either owned or shot many of the guns listed in this post. Still, others are more knowledgeable than myself. I'm just getting back into the sport so the landscape of offerings have changed, but the basic physics involved have not. If you want more personal experience with regards to the 90, Sonnysan who responded above probably has more experience than anyone here with the platform. He also has a museum of the finest pieces you'll ever see. I'm quite confident he holds the gun in high regards. Perhaps others with real experience will chime in? Zeroing in on one gun is tough for your needs because the possibilities are both half the fun and other half frustration.

there used to be a poster named Harry Yrrah that used to shoot amazing groups with a .22 Eliminator at 100yds. No easy task for the vast majority of us with a springer.

To be sure, sometimes the gun is the cheapest part of the deal, depending on where you go from there. From all that I've read about, the TX200 or a higher powered Weihrauch is what you are looking for in my humble opinion. I own the RWS 54 but I don't enjoy its extreme weight anymore for offhand shooting, otherwise I would maybe suggest it. Again, personal interjection. I think someone mentioned a Whiscombe; Good luck finding one of those and if you do be prepared to spend 5-10K$

Scope, mounts, chrony etc., etc. It will all certainly add up quickly. Enjoy the ride friend.


   
ReplyQuote
sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 620
 

If you want to adjust the ram to your hearts desire, here are the essentials.  You don't need anything else:

Complete kit:

https://www.bestfittings.co.uk/shop/airgun-charging-equipment/charging-pumps/theoben-weihrauch-hw90-gas-ram-charging-pump-kit/

no-frills chronograph:

https://smile.amazon.com/Caldwell-720001-Ballistic-Precision-Chronograph/dp/B00HTN5DTE/ref=sr_1_2_mod_primary_new?dchild=1&keywords=chronograph&qid=1603675305&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sr=8-2

Scope:

I own 20 year old springer rated scopes that are discontinued, but this is a good start:

https://www.straightshooters.com/heavy-recoil-scopes.html

Someone on the boards mentioned this scope can handle any spring or gas piston gun.  When in doubt call Craig at straightshooters:

https://www.straightshooters.com/clearidge-4.5-14x40.html

BKL260 mount if you are using 1" scope:

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/BKL_1_Pc_Mount_4_Long_1_Rings_3_8_or_11mm_Dovetail_6_Base_Screws_Matte_Black/2893

muzzle sleeve:

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_Crow_Mag_Short_Muzzlebrake/2965

 

 

 

 

 

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 

@chemclay

Let's get something out of the way: I DEEPLY DISLIKE the Theoben gas rams, whether they are the HW version of the Beeman/RX version.

WHY? They are EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT. And why is this important? Because you cannot take more than 20-40 shots in a session without starting to suffer the consequences.

Can you "Adjust" them? yes, but adjusting them just brings out MORE of the inefficiency. And I have worked on several, one of them, in the end, we decided to convert to steel spring, it was THAT bad.

So, how bad was it? Let's analyze ONE example (SN# 201190) that would be more typical; starting from full charge, all strings 10 shots, same 13.7 grs. 0.20" cal. pellet in all tests:

PCE (Peak Cocking Effort) .- 55# -> ME.- 20 ft-lbs with SD's in the double digits.

then we took one little "spurt" off the schrader valve: 19.6 ft-lbs still a bear to cock

another 2 spurts: 19.2 ft-lbs

another spurt: 19.4 ft-lbs ¿¡huh?!

another spurt: 19.6 ft-lbs (is this a trend?)

another spurt: 19.9 ft-lbs (it seems so!)

another spurt: 19.7 ft-lbs (are we past a "peak"?)

another spurt: 19.8 ft-lbs (HHmmmmph!)

another spurt: 19.4 ft-lbs (Jeez! is there any consistency to this machine?)

another spurt: 19.6 ft-lbs (nope! doesn't seem to be there!)

another  spurt: 19.6 ft-lbs (Merry go round, merry go round . . . .)

another spurt: 19.7 ft-lbs (Around and around and around . . . )

another spurt: 19.3 ft-lbs (MV's SD finally settled under the two digits)

another LONG spurt: 18.2 ft-lbs with an SD of 1 over 10 shots, so we settled there.

PCF?  44 #

A DIANA 54  in the same caliber, with 37# of PCF yields routinely, OEM OoB, between 20 and 22 ft-lbs. with SD's in the 3-5 fps. range once properly "run-in".

Now, 7# of additional PCF may not seem much, and they are NOT too much IF this is a hunting rifle, or one with which you take 20 shots and then let it rest for a day.

If you want to take 50 to a 100 shots in a day, then 44# of PCF is absolutely untenable, even if you were a weightlifter. Your strength may be there, but the fine motor eye-muscle coordination flies out the door pretty fast.

So, from the HUMAN stand-point, the 54 is a MUCH MORE SHOOTABLE gun. Yes it lacks the double recoil to the shooter, and yes it is more stable and consistent than other airguns, yes it is heavy.

But after years of lugging "over the hill and o'er the Main" the 12# of my SSG the 54 just feels right for me.

We are all different and, as I said, I highly doubt this will be your last airgun, you will get a chance to test others, develop the skills, consistency, and steadiness required for good long range airgunning, and the muscle memory to shoot, even under a "quick ready" with accuracy. Just give yourself a chance starting with a good tool, and be conscious of the limitations of the tool. Whether it is a Theoben based gas ram, a gas spring, or a steel spring, there is no "perfect" solution for ALL shooters.

This is just info for your decision making process.

HTH, Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

HM


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

So fellow air gunners, from this discussion, I'm considering Sig asp20, HW80, and HW90 in .22. I would very much appreciate your recommendation and one reason for it. Thank you.


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@stevep-52)
New York
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 274
 

Based on your 3 choices, HW80 in .22. 

- Parts whether factory or aftermarket are readily available

- No pumps, fittings and such needed, just scope of choice and pellets 

- Can be worked on, should you need to, by yourself or any number of pro tuners out there

- Checks the boxes for everything you're looking for and has a very long and very good history to back it up

The other 2 while excellent rifles have the already spelled out cons to them


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

Can the HW80 achieve 20 fpe in .22?

 


   
ReplyQuote
sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 620
 

If I only had one choice, it would be the HW90.  I've owned them all.

Shooting too harshly or not powerful enough?  After adjusting the power, in 15 minutes you'll have a new rifle.

Just need to replace the o-rings or valve?  No problem.  Just apply the same principles from my eliminator guide.

I've shot an eliminator for 150 rounds straight before.  If you are older, this may be an issue.

I'm now shooting an .177 RX-1 with Kodiaks at 1,000fps (approx 24fpe).  It shoots lights out at 25 yards.  I'm sure it will go farther, but that is my longest sight-in range at the moment.

If I burn out the piston seal due to running the gun too hot, no problem.  Already have piston seals from JM.  Will just adjust the ram for 900fps next time:

https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/1307073.htm

Want to adjust the local ecosystem of squirrels and other pests?  No problem there either.

Want to acheive 20 or greater in an HW80?  Answer:  Lazaglide or Maglazaglide tune.  Over $200 when they were available.

 

 

 

 

 


   
ReplyQuote

liveliner
(@liveliner)
Maine
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 31
 
Posted by: @boscoebrea

Thank you for asking,I will put my 40 years of experience of  shooting springers forward for you.

   My most powerful stock springer is the RWS model 52,the 48 is the same....177.A side lever,that is also accurate.

  Do not believe 100 yd. shooting with any springer,you are going to have trouble at 25 yds. until you have a lot of practice.

  My English made Tomahawk.22 is another accurate powerful springer,very hard to obtain now.

  HW97.22 great springer,always available, it is an under lever.

  R9...another great springer...

 How strong are you?Do you have enough patience to become proficient in shooting a springer at a long distance,if so chose one of the above springers.

  Now .177 or .22...for powerful springers I like .22 because It can shoot heavier pellets =which tend to calm down the shooting cycle.

  A .177 can be better for longer distance shooting.

 Do not forget a good  springer scope and mounts.

 

Enjoyed your post, springer guy here from the yellow days. Took out my Russ Best tuned Diana 52 for the first time in years yesterday. Love the rifle but it is a bit loud, neighbor wary, compared to my R-7 which I have been using lately for chipmunk control. Shooting the Diana felt like heavy artillery WOW. Three for three @ 30yds. Will be using it more lately as my 2nd floor window sill shooter. Fun, rediscovering what you have.

Love the self-contained, no apparatus needed, world of springers. That is why I got rid of my PCP's.  Well most, kept  the .22 Marauder, hand pumper here. Still have several springers. TX200, R-7' R-9,HW50 to name a few.


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@bill_s)
Wisconsin
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 460
 

I'm generally a vintage guy - why mess with what works. You want to be able to diddle with your gun or shoot it? I think HM raises a valid point that negates some of the adjustability that a ram seems to provide. The Sig looks like a Hatsan gun to me with the beer can moderator. If it were me, I'd scout out a used Beeman R1, maybe one that's had a tune?? Classic rifle with the Goudy stock and Rekord trigger. Doesn't get much better.


   
TnAirgunner reacted
ReplyQuote
ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Louisiana
Rest In Peace
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 510
 

Kind of amazing what you can hit at distance on the home range...the range you shoot on day-to-day,every day, and have a feel for distance even if you never measured it.

Might be more like indirect artillery fire...aiming way up....but becasue you know (intuitively by use of not by measure),can lob those pellets into a 12gr.shell at ranges that just about freak obeservers out.

Feels a bit like a game of lawn darts....you know those pellets are arching up and dropping down (can even watch them when the light is just right)...and yet they still hit the 12ga.shell with a "TOK"sound, fliping them over the back stop.

It's not something you can rely on over strange ground...like hunting...can only manage that kind of low speed hits because you know the ground perfectly.

You've cut the grass week after week...walked that ground for years...know the distance to every bush/tree/stump/rock....have parcticed year after year....somehow,even whan you don't try, know the hold over.

That's NOT going to happen away from the practice range....but it certainly gets folks attention.

Doesn't mean you should take those low speed/ high trejecgtory airugns out into strange ground. A small miss-estimate of range gets really big misses.

THAT's where the higher speed/better BC pellets start to even out the miss-guesses.....and likely the best place for "magnum" anything.


   
Harvey reacted
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@hkshooter)
Indiana
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 138
 
Posted by: @chemclay
Posted by: @straitflite

@chemclay

Could be, but I thought this was about helping you find a choice? I was pointing out that publicly saying you need an additional $500 to own one is in fact wrong.

Yes, thank you I see that. I'm hoping you share your reasons for considering the 90.

My .02.

You don't need to spend money on anything other than a good scope and mount and plenty of ammo when it comes to the HW90. You can but the rifle is an excellent performer right out of the box. My cousin owned one for years (may still have it, it's been a while) and we put thousands of shots on the gun. It was in .20 and a real beast to shoot, both in cocking effort (48lbs) and recoil. But it was a real hammer when it comes to putting energy on target. 

Sure, you could get into the game of spending money on tools to dicker with the gas pressure and maybe that'd be something you could keep in mind for the future should you decide to. But there's no need for it so don't be scared off by it. Like others, I recommend the HW90 for your needs providing you can cock it and are not recoil sensitive. 

Someone above mentioned the lack of R1 recommendations. Well here's another. I've owned multiple R1s and all were excellent shooters, light on cocking effort for the power, reliable, and well made. I've never tried to shoot one past about 65 yards. Today my favorite go-to rifle is an R1 in .177 that's been well tuned. The thing is a laser and smoothness and power nearly rival the HW90 but I already know I don't have the skill to shoot it out to 80 or beyond, I'd be wasting pellets. 

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

How does the Sig asp20 compare to the R1/HW80?


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@legionair)
California
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 9
 

Before I got my first 54 I read many times how heavy it was. Until I actually got it and realized it wasn’t that much heavier than my 48. Don’t read too much into someone else’s experience. If you have average strength it should not be a problem. 
Lucky for me when I put a WTB ad for a 54 I found one tuned by Hector Medina in damn near perfect condition. It is a night and day difference shooting the 54 vs. 48. I was already accurate with the 48 but this recoilless 54 just felt like cheating. I own a couple high end PCPs that take a back seat to the 54 when I go out for a quick shoot, that’s how fun it is to shoot.

Besides the advantage of being recoilless. If the spring needs replacing on a 54 all you need to do is buy a new spring kit and you can install it yourself. Working on the HW90 yourself will cost the same as the gun itself or you’ll be sending it off to get worked on

I’ve never shot an HW90 but I imagine there is still recoil there. I’m sure it’s an accurate powerhouse but there is NOTHING like shooting a spring gun with a sled system. Do you want to spend time learning how to hold the gun to shoot it accurately? Or shoot it accurately right out of the box without having to learn how to hold it?


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 436
 

@legionair

Rebuilding HW90/RX rifles is easier and cheaper than any spring gun. All that is required is an R1 style piston seal and a few O rings. 


   
ReplyQuote

Avatar
(@legionair)
California
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 9
 

@jim-bentley The HW90s I’ve read about have gas rams. I didn’t know they made a spring version


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@kdhope)
Canada
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 29
 
Posted by: @legionair

@jim-bentley The HW90s I’ve read about have gas rams. I didn’t know they made a spring version

They don't,that would be the HW 80 ,R1,kelly


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 
Posted by: @jim-bentley

@legionair

Rebuilding HW90/RX rifles is easier and cheaper than any spring gun. All that is required is an R1 style piston seal and a few O rings. 

AND, HOW are you going to re-charge the Ram?

Not everyone has high pressure pumps. And although not expensive, you DO need one.

Unless you can blow real hard . . . 😉

 

 

 

 

 

 

HM


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@legionair)
California
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 9
 

Exactly why I emphasized gas ram because a pump is needed. There are definitely some springer only guys who don’t own pumps. 

Does the HW90 come with a fill probe?


   
ReplyQuote
sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 620
 

To be fair, you will need a spring compressor to work on a springer:

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_Rail_Lock_Spring_Compressor/7764

Both designs require special tools - no way around it.

Remember paying around $150 back in the day:

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/B_Square_Mainspring_Compressor_For_All_Spring_Rifles/2293

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 436
 

@sonnysan

Correct and if you've never disassembled/reassembled an RWS rifle, be prepared for a fight without a spring compressor!!

I've had a pump forever and used it a lot lately. With the gas rams you can find the velocity that works the best for your application, something that is very difficult with a spring gun. I have tuned probably 20+ spring guns and really enjoy them, but they are a bear to get the exact velocity/energy that you want.


   
ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Ohio
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 764
 

@hector-j-medina-g

Not everyone has high pressure pumps.

Not everyone has all the answers either.

Its great to see so many point of views since no single size fits all.

 

 

 


   
ReplyQuote

Avatar
(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 
Posted by: @straitflite

@hector-j-medina-g

Not everyone has high pressure pumps.

Not everyone has all the answers either.

Its great to see so many point of views since no single size fits all.

 

 

 

I agree, Straitflite, what I object to is the oversimplification of things that borders on misinformation. And I did leave the pressure gauge out because quite frankly, it is not needed, and the probe/hose because there are quite ready and economical substitutions from the Bike Strut world. Even the pump can be replaced from that end of the sports world. But IF you are going to service rams, you NEED them.

Yes, I also use a spring compressor, I perform between 2 and 4 disassemblies per day, I would be stupid not to use one. Just from the protection of my customer's guns and my own safety standpoint. I use a simple pipe clamp, held by a workmate style table.

It's a work center all in one, has served me well for MANY years. Total cost was UNDER what a new HP pump (of decent quality) will cost you. I also know that certain Oob OEM spring guns of good quality will serve the OP'er purposes better than a gas ram one.

image

We all speak from the love of our guns, as a professional gunsmith, I understand; I HAVE to, otherwise I would not be tuning from medium bore hunting PCP's to Match guns as well as FT and "hunting sproingers".

I have also been teaching and coaching shooters for a LONG time. So I try to present FACTS; not opinions, nor POV's. It is a fact, gained over many years of introducing people to airguns, that they fare better and stay with the sport when their first experience has no/little recoil, this makes the NATURAL introduction to airgunning tool either a PCP or a recoil-less gun. Since this thread is specifically about spring guns, the choice is obvious.

Within all the great defenses of the RX's/HW-Theoben's style rams I have not seen a single FACT to disprove my simple table of "spurts".

Believe me I do think that the Gas Ram is way overdue for a re-vamp, and I KNOW there is the technology to do it. My own work with one of the tuning items suppliers has demonstrated so. I am just convinced that for THIS particular OP'er, a Gas Ram is not the solution. Maybe a gas spring? yes, that could be, if he really wants it.

This all started with a thread about SIG-Sauer and how they refused to give service information and sell spare parts in another thread. It was I who suggested starting a thread of its own, as the conversation had gone from a SuperTarget pistol to the ASP-20. It was very nice of ChemClay to start this thread. And he has gotten some good advice. So the objective is partly covered.

As for myself, I would just like to see more facts. That's all I ask. Is it too much to ask?

Respectfully submitted.

 

 

 

 

HM

 

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@legionair)
California
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 9
 

@sonnysan You can build a spring compressor with hardware store parts for way cheaper than $150. Try doing the same with a HPA pump


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

so, is the sig asp20 considered in with the gas rams( I'm sorry I'm having trouble following this)?


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@legionair)
California
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 9
 

@chemclay Yup and one of the best recently made gas pistons 


   
ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 

If what you are asking is "What the heck is a ram?", the answer is, the same sort of gas shock which holds up a car hood, rear hatch, toolbox lid, etc. Somebody got the bright idea to use those instead of springs. They are OK, undoubtedly quieter than a spring in untuned condition.

The Theoben model may be different somehow, I can't speak to those.

 

Since this is a new thread, do I get to vote again? If so, I still vote Diana 54.

Mine is a "hunter grade" purchased second hand for $325, and prints touching groups at 50 yards when rested off a lawn chair, shooting Crosman domes out of a tin that's been riding in my truck door pocket for 5 years.

I tossed a cheap LDC on it, much better for the backyard now, and since it's not a barrel cocker, I don't have to worry about folding the LDC by accident.

Haven't shot it over the chrony since rebuilding, but it was making 24 pounds with 14gr wadcutters and a tired old spring (RIPieces)

 

Full disclosure, I don't have an 80, or a 90.

I'd definitely like a HW80, eventually, but I'm not really sure if or how it would be an upgrade.

Since I already have 15lb, 23lb, and 32lb spring guns, something around 8lbs would make more sense.

 

Whatever you decide, go toss up a WTB in the classifieds, see what sort of deal you can drum up.

Personally, having had to iron out kinks on a few guns, I'd probably avoid the Sig.


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@chemclay)
Ohio
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 59
Topic starter  

Personally, having had to iron out kinks on a few guns, I'd probably avoid the Sig.

 

What kind of kinks did you have in the Sig?


   
ReplyQuote
nced
(@nced)
North Carolina
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 144
 
Posted by: @legionair

@sonnysan You can build a spring compressor with hardware store parts for way cheaper than $150. Try doing the same with a HPA pump

LOL...........for my spring compressor I use a padded 60" Groz sash clamp that cost cost less than $50 complete. Heavy construction, long ram screw, plus it can be used as a "bar clamp" when not compressing springs ? ........

https://www.amazon.com/Groz-39102-bar-Clamp-Length/dp/B01DAPPY20/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=Sash+Clamps&qid=1603891085&sr=8-7

 

 

 


   
ReplyQuote

Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 
Posted by: @chemclay

What kind of kinks did you have in the Sig?

Apologies if I wasn't clear, I don't have any Sig airguns.

What I meant is, there is a fairly accepted concept that a lot of spring guns are more of a kit, than a out-of-the-box winner. I've learned to avoid fixing new stuff, by buying used, or buying a known quantity.

 

A good example of a common issue, failure to de-burr the compression tube results in slicing the seal during assembly. In other words, the gun needs rebuilt out of the box. Is there a replacement seal to be had, or did you buy a pig in a poke?

Hector already mentioned barrel block issues. Do all examples have this same fitment issue, or do the tolerances vary? IMHO, both are issues!

 

I don't have any particular beef with Sig, but I am generally against companies which veer outside their lane by licensing their name, or outsourcing production of items they do not have the expertise to evaluate, or provide QC on. I'm also not in favor of resting on laurels.

Example, that identical twin of the Sig Mosquito I picked up this year under the GSG brand. For $189 I feel like it's a good value, if I'd payed $350, I'd be pissed off. It did NOT function properly out of the box, and even when I did get it working, there are still issues. wOrSt tRiGgEr EvEr and if you haven't shot it before, you'll be checking the safety. Is the safety on? No? WTF? 10Lbs pull? Is that a thing?

Did Sig fix the issues, or lower the price? Nay, they dropped the contract, and it wouldn't surprise me if they suddenly get out of airguns also.

 

 

Now, I haz a question.

Does anyone know WHO is making this particular Sig airgun?

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@legionair)
California
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 9
 

@nced even better?


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 
Posted by: @chemclay

so, is the sig asp20 considered in with the gas rams( I'm sorry I'm having trouble following this)?

Chemclay, just to clarify terminology:

A gas spring is like a gas shock absorber as introduced back in the mid 70's, by Gabriel IIRC. It is a straight in/out device whose force comes from a gas under pressure, pushing the stem in reduces the chamber volume, increases the pressure and thereby generates a force..

A Gas STRUT, usually is a gas spring that has right angle heads to allow it to move/aid in moving STUFF as GWH said.

A Gas RAM is an adjustable gas spring.

The ASP 20 is a gas spring' ed gun, but the force rate of the spring is not adjustable. In the case of gas spring guns, they usually have a separate piston with its own head and seal. SOME guns, like the Hatsans, have a gas ram inside a conventional steel spring'ed gun, so you can adjust the power, but you need to completely disassemble the gun.

The RX's and the Theoben style HW's, do not have a separate piston/spring, the piston with a seal, is itself a compression chamber. You COULD think (as an oversimplification) of this system as having one plunger and one piston nested inside one another, plunger in the back is closed except for the valve and at the front seals against the INSIDE of the piston and that forms the sealed compression chamber, the other chamber in front of the piston is open to the TP and barrel. When you cock the gun you are  moving the piston back and compressing the air between piston body and plunger, inside that closed chamber, that raises the pressure and creates a force. More air (more fill pressure) means more force. To put more air you need a pump. Look at the diagram above referenced and you can see how things happen.

Gas Springs/Struts/Rams, ALL depend on the air/gas pressure inside the sealed chambers to SEAL those chambers, so you get to a diminishing returns point where more pressure just locks up the seals. And more of the energy put into the gun is expended in overcoming the FRICTION of the seals (MOST of them ORings).

If you release too much pressure from a gas spring (some are "adjustable" going down, but cannot be pumped up), then the low pressure may cause the seals to fail in their sealing duty once static things become dynamic.

What you see in my little "unscientific" experiment of "spurts" is how the energy output behaves as the pressure inside the sealed chamber of the gas Ram is reduced. And what is proven by that very simple experiment is that the technology embodied in those models is far from "done"  let alone perfect. Shooters make a lot of fuss about the pressure inside their gas rams; truth is, that pressure is irrelevant if the gun is not consistent enough. And a SD (standard deviation) of more 10 fps usually means an extreme spread of 30 fps or a bit higher (depending on the number of shots in the sample); while a uniform MV si not a GUARANTEE of accuracy, it is a pre-requisite. So the most time effective way of tuning an RX/Theoben style gun is to go to the top end, and then see where SD's come down to at least single digits, and THEN look for the energy you want in that operating region by going up and down a little in the fill pressure. Which, by the way is not the same even for IDENTICAL model rifles. That's why I do not even bother with measuring/noting the pressure.

Coming back to the ASP20, the three I have "delivered" ( I would not even dare to call that a "prep", let alone a "Tune", as the only things done were to carry out the "running in" and a good trigger adjustment), have been operating flawlessly for about a year. The FIRST one (the one that got me acquainted with the model), did undergo some "surgery" knowing full well that it voided the warranty and that any and all parts that were needed would have to be machined from scratch.

IF you like the looks of the ASP20, and if you already shoot well mild mannered springers, then probably the ASP20 is a good next step. You have said repeatedly that you are not interested in the tinkering side of the hobby, so that the ASP20 would seem to be a better match for YOU.

I am sure it will not be your last airgun, LOL! So, go ahead and buy what YOU want and what fits YOUR needs.

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM

 

 


   
ReplyQuote
Avatar
(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 

@gratewhitehuntr

Answering your point: SIG-Sauer USA is MAKING the ASP 20. Yes they buy the airgun barrels from other EUROPEAN companies in the group, as they should because they are not expert airgun barrel makers. But the gun was completely designed and is made in the USA.

With the airgun engineer that conducted this project going out of SIG, I am not too sure SIG will keep doing airguns, they had a project for a sidelever, but that was scrapped.

They are a serious company, part of a large group (Luke and Orteiler) and I am sure that they will honor the terms of their warranties: 5 years to the original purchasor.

So, for you, it may be better to wait 5 years and pick up one on the cheap, LOL! Because they are accurate barrels (especially the 0.22" s) and they do have a nice potential.

Start saving for when the opportunity arises. 😉

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

 

HM


   
ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 2

Airgun Warriors