I have only owned a few air guns and most being German or British, oh and I have a Daisy 747 and a S&W 78G also. I do wonder about the manufacturers/distributors like Beeman and others moving toward China, Spain or Turkey. I am sure the labor cost is drastically cheaper and there may also be other reasons I am not aware of.
My question would be are any of these rifles and pistols close to the quality from years past? I know what I paid for my R1 and R7 in the late 70's or early 80's. I find it hard to believe a Beeman air rifle in the $99-$149 range is up to par. I don't own one, have never shot one and don't think I have even seen one other than online. I would appreciate your thoughts on air guns from countries other than Germany and the UK. Thanks
I have only owned a few air guns and most being German or British, oh and I have a Daisy 747 and a S&W 78G also. I do wonder about the manufacturers/distributors like Beeman and others moving toward China, Spain or Turkey. I am sure the labor cost is drastically cheaper and there may also be other reasons I am not aware of.
My question would be are any of these rifles and pistols close to the quality from years past? I know what I paid for my R1 and R7 in the late 70's or early 80's. I find it hard to believe a Beeman air rifle in the $99-$149 range is up to par. I don't own one, have never shot one and don't think I have even seen one other than online. I would appreciate your thoughts on air guns from countries other than Germany and the UK. Thanks
There's a lot to be covered in regard to this subject--definitely more than I would choose to cover by myself for the sake of time and effort. But I can offer a little, and others can take it from there.
Let me interject that I tune, modify, and test springers, mostly rifles, so I got a good look at quite a few of them, inside and out. From how your question is phrased, I think you're asking about springers, not PCP's.
Spain: I know of these 3: Gamo, Cometa, and Norica.
The first 2 weren't too bad in the past, depending on which models you're discussing. A little tuning work also helps them, concerning lubes and triggers (the Gamo likes the trigger replaced, but it's not expensive). Several of the Gamos in past years were actually pretty decent, like the 220 and 440, and the Cometa Fenix 400 was also fairly nice with a light tune. There are a few more-current Gamo models that seem to be related to the 220 and 440 family, but I've yet to know for sure.
I consider the Noricas at the bottom of the list, albeit with my limited exposure to them (I think these are PERHAPS key members of your Beeman $99-149 'club', and no, they are NOT the equal of the high-quality Weihrauch or UK Webley guns of yester year by any means, if that covers that item for you).
Now, when you go to Turkish guns, at least as of several years ago, I would never have owned one unless I got it for free. The Winchester 1000 was Turkish IIRC, and it was awful. There was 'sand' in the lubricant and the trigger pull was literally about 12 lb--I figured out how to get them to 3-4 lb and owners were pleased, but it was more work than I could justify as to cost. Accuracy was terrible, too, with no way to fix the bad barrels. If you could usually hit a soda can at 20 yards you had a good day.
I own a highly-tuned Chinese springer (I did a LOT of work and supplied upgraded parts), and it's 'pretty-fair' now. It was a gift, or I'd have passed it by for its previous shortcomings. It's still not great, which it should be for all the time, effort, and expense I put into it (but, JDP if you're reading this, I'm still grateful for your generosity on this one--I'm just providing a real road test report for the poster here). That's the only thing I'll offer as to Chinese guns for today.
My impression, based on reading, and being inside several dozen springers of various nationalities, is that the huge lead the Germans had in quality (thirty years ago) has been steadily shrinking over the past decade. The Germans are cutting corners (so as not to lose all their market due to cost) and Turkish, Chinese, Spanish, Koreans, etc, have been steadily improving.
How good a Chinese springer is has a lot to do the how carefully the manufacturer is being watched by whoever the importer is, some are up to the level of mid range Brit springers of the 80's, and within shouting distance of current production German guns.
There was 'sand' in the lubricant ?
If only it were that funny!
Anyway, for all intents and purposes, yes. I simplified it by using that term, hoping that readers who had a basic knowledge of working with metal in the manufacturing processes would know what I meant. But, thank you for pointing out my errant assumption. I can and probably should elaborate.
When metal is machined, (cut, welded, lathed, milled, drilled, etc), sometimes small pieces of welding slag, and cutting and grinding debris and grit that should be cleaned-out are lazily left behind. They readily-adhere to any lubricants that are applied to moving parts. In the case of a spring-piston air gun, you can feel the resulting abrasion when you move those parts, especially when you attempt to cock the gun.
(And, there's always a chance that the debris I refer to is partly made of leftover grit from actual sandpaper that's used in a polishing step or two).
If you take such a gun apart, the grit is very apparent if you simply take a little of the internal lubricant and rub it in-between your thumb and forefinger. It gives the same feel as would sand particles trapped in grease. That's what I meant. For instance, the Ruger Airhawk I tuned had just that situation--and I think it's a Chinese gun.
Hope that helps.
(...A tuned B20/B26 and B21/B30 are hard to beat BTW...
HA)
The highly tuned Chinese springer I mentioned in my last post is an SM-1000. If memory serves correctly I think it's related to the B20/B21 series of rifles. It's not bad, but nowhere close to the tuned German made RWS 34P I own, a few other German and UK guns I've owned in the past, or countless other specimens of German and UK makes and models I've tuned for others.
But, I'm happy when I read that you and others are enjoying your Chinese air rifles. IMO, there's a place for them, too. "If only the birds with the prettiest songs sang, the forest would be silent"--something like that. The woman who owns the Ruger Airhawk I mentioned says she still enjoys it. She says the accuracy to her back fence where she lines up the soda cans is good enough to put a smile on her face when she wants to do some shooting. I can't remember if she told me how far away that is or not.
Well, I have the answer to my question. I might have already know the answer but was not sure. Your response was very in-depth and I appreciate it. A mistake I made 40 years back was not staying in air guns. I missed years of learning about and enjoying the hobby.
The old saying holds true "You get what you pay for". I will stay with the UK & Germany made guns and leave the rest for others to enjoy. I should not exclude some of the US brands (Daisy, Crosman) and a few of the Italian guns plus other that I can't think of at this moment.
Again, thanks
I might not have done as good a job for you as I intended, so I'm going to try it something like this:
The gritty material I found inside and mixed-in with the lubricant(s) was fairly typical of Turkish and Chinese guns as they arrived straight from the factories. Some of the internal parts had a very poor fit and finish, too. I consider these 2 at the bottom of the list. (As mentioned, though, if you properly tune one you clean up such items and can end up with a decent air gun--some items may still be lacking even then, limited by iffy manufacturing techniques and tolerances .
As to those, I should state that I haven't been inside a new specimen of either type as they come straight from the factory for at least 4-5 years. That's because, after seeing several like that, I got frustrated and stopped working on them. Maybe they're a little better now.
In fact, there's a real nice fellow who imports, tunes, then sells some of the Chinese rifles these days, and some people here have probably had a good experience with him. ('Mike" is all I'm saying, because I don't know if he's a supported sponsor here). I think he may even take a look at every one he sells before he ships it, but someone else will have to attest to that because it's been awhile since I talked to him and I don't remember what he said about that.
The Spanish springers I ran into along the way were a cut above those, or what I'll call 'about halfway in-between' air guns from the above 2 countries of origin and the German/UK guns.
That leaves the German/UK guns in the top position.
I wouldn't knock Chinese airguns, here is a B3 beater that I got used and it is the nicest shooting B3 I have ever shot! The trigger on this one is UNBELIEVABLY SUPERB!!! 25 yard groups shooting off of my knee. The lowest shot in each group are not fliers, they are the aim point. Using a generic scope from Amazon that doesn't even have enough elevation to zero it properly so I held over 4 mildots just to shoot the groups. Not even airgun rated but the gun is very tame to shoot like my tuned HW30. The other B3s I had shot in the past were rubbish IMHO... This one is different... Sorta feels like Paul Watts did something to it...
HA
Mike;
I find interesting that every answer so far has addressed the provenance issue, but no one has talked about the quality trends from the 80's to date.
I am sure, because it is the point of view expressed here repeatedly, that most readers will be of the opinion that quality has "dropped".
And yet, modern, newly built airguns from accuracy minded brands can easily surpass in accuracy and precision anything built 10 years ago. Sure there are exceptions, but they will be just that: exceptions. What time allows is for the "collector" to purchase exceptional airguns at used prices, and to be honest, apart from some RARE airguns, no airgun is capable of keeping its value over a long time.
The OTHER thing that no one mentions when talking about "quality" that some of the older finishes are simply unsustainable from an environmental point of view. And while it is not obvious to us in the USA, companies in Europe can pay huge fees to local governments for using certain substances that are deemed poisonous or contaminant, and this affects, mainly the cost of bluing and the final color of the metal. So, some bluing techniques are simply not possible from an economical standpoint.
Modern industrial gunsmithing is a science, and there are now methods and materials that would have been impossible in the past.
So, while, PERSONALLY, I am a great admirer of old guns, I also think some of them belong in museums/collections and I really would not like to own any of them.
I would much rather have a modern gun with everything that modern manufacturing and materials can offer.
JMHO
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Hector, thanks for your insight on this subject. Being born in 1948 my glory days were in the 60's and I loved the '55-'65 cars. I do have to admit that on my '57 Ford and my '60 Chevy I had replaced ball joints, universal joints and other parts before 25,000 miles and a complete top-end by 50,000 miles. Tires were good for about 10,000 miles. No one would ever think to get 300,000 miles from a 60's car without several major rebuilds. Today cars can go well over 100,000 miles with no major work at all (usually). I agree with you that manufacturing techniques and the development of better materials have moved air gunning forward.
PCP air guns have moved the industry into a new era so I wonder what will be the next step and where will this hobby be in 10 or 20 years?
Thanks for your input
Hello Mike!
I am of '56 vintage, so not too much difference.
You made me remember when I bought my first set of radials. EVERYONE (including my Pa), decided I was going nuts, that NO WAY could a tire give 30,000 miles of tread life and good service. At most 15,000 with really good care was what was expected.
But I bought them, and after 40,000 miles (64,000 kms), I changed them because there was a sale of a better design, not because they had totally worn off.
After that, my father decided that I had come of age and was capable of taking my own decisions, LOL!
My current Passat TDI is almost 90,000 miles and still yielding 40 mpg mixed driving, 45-47 on straight highway, depending on whether we're using the "winter blend" or not.
Airguns, on the other hand, are now blessed with seals that can last MANY thousands of shots and, though they develop less power than the old leather seals of the same bore and stroke, they operate as TRUE airguns, not "diesel" guns.
My own tunes when taken to the extreme, can last 30-40,000 rounds without any maintenance needed.
And the accuracy of modern pellets is something that could only have been imagined 30 years ago.
And the industry is just barely "coming of age", lots of wonderful things are still to come.
It's good to be an airgunner these days, whether you like the old or the new, it is indeed a "golden" age.
Keep us posted about what you decide to get!
HM
I have to say I disagree with a lot of what I’ve read here, so I’m gonna lay out some truths
Here’s the straight dope, you basically get what you pay for. Sometimes you can pay extra for less and sometimes you can pay less for more but it’s sort of a bell curve. In the end you mostly get what you pay for
The money you pay goes into materials, mfg, quality control, and marketing. Now some folks can market the hell out of a horrible gun and people buy them, eventually though people sort it out.
Equally you can find a diamond in the rough, a real shooter that surprises you for the cost. But in the end...you get what you pay for.
As to pellets and such, over 30 years ago we had RWS R10’s and the like. Over 30 years ago we had H&N and Beeman and the plethora of ridiculously high quality pellets. Nearly thirty years ago we had this thing called Crosman Premiers in 1250 unit cardboard boxes. So I didn’t even need to imagine that stuff because we had it. Almost thirty years ago, 1991 to be precise we had this thing called JSB. Making match pellets out of necessity. The biggest difference then v now, he bought preformed wire, now they make their own.
I remember ridiculous and amazing pellet designs of over 30 years ago.
Pellets with plastic bodies and tin domes, pellets with bbs in the hollow-point tip, Pointed pellets, hollow-point pellets, silhouette pellets with a “driving band” meant to catch the edge of those pesky rams on near misses. Those ridiculous barracuda “penis” pellets that look nothing like the pellet of the same name today. The pellet being made for the Barakuda ether inject rifle (EL54).
Some of those pellets we had thirty years ago have remained virtually unchanged and are still the most accurate pellets in the world.
But back to the guns, you can find a gem in Walmart, you can find a gem in a $75 rifle, you can buy a bit of marketing and get a bit of a clunker (RWS 34 nylon comes to mind). Want a real marketing over actual performance gun, the Daystate Mirage ... a bucket full of money for an unregulated, beech stock, 15 shots per fill “hunting gun”.?
Electronics your thing, bonus points for the person that can name the airgun that had a built in chronograph along with an electronic trigger and power adjuster.
Wanna go down a rabbit hole, look up the guns that have wins, the most golds, then look at some of the new winners weird Chinese match pistols that have been around for over a decade. Then look at the market and realize that silly IZH-46m started life as a $130 gun no body wanted. The IZH 61 was a $49 gun, the multi shot, $69. $59 per if you bought a case. So yeah there are a lot of mass produced junk airguns out there, but there always have been then and now... you generally get what you pay for
Electronics your thing, bonus points for the person that can name the airgun that had a built in chronograph along with an electronic trigger and power adjuster...
When you name the RWS nylon in the clunker category, I wonder if you mean the RWS Panther with the black stock. It's a German gun as much as other RWS/Diana air guns, which is to say there have been rumors some of their parts like barrels may have been outsourced to China, etc. True? I really don't know. Anyway, the only difference between that one and the regular RWS 34 with a wooden stock is the stock--well, maybe the fiber optic open sights didn't come on the non-Panther versions (that is, Diana offered the wooden stocks on more than one variation of the 34). The Panther has the same high-quality primary parts in and on the receiver, trigger, etc. Mine responded the same as other 34's I've tuned to that tuning work, which is to say, very well. That includes its T05 trigger.
I actually like the stock on mine, but it's true I'd trade it for a finely-shaped, oil-finished claro walnut one in a jiffy. The cost could be prohibitive, however. My stock is still quite functional, although a few lead weights and a few pieces of foam can do wonders for a loud, unbalanced stock. Let it be said that even the wood stocks for the 34 liked the weights--I know because I did several such modifications for others.
As to the electronic gun with multiple bells and whistles, could that have been the Rogue? I find it easy to remember because people often made the mistake of spelling it 'Rouge', like the makeup. I remember the company that sold it (Crosman?? DON'T remember that detail) marketed the living daylights out of it at the time and said "the future of all things air gun is finally here"--lol, but I don't think it caught on for the most part. The thing had the presence of a 'Rube Goldberg' if I'm thinking of the right gun, and that may have been part of its failing to be mentioned today, I think.
I have to say I disagree with a lot of what I’ve read here, so I’m gonna lay out some truths
Wouldn't they be YOUR truths?
A truism like "You get what you pay for" does not reflect the COMMON reality of airgunning from 30 years ago to the present.
Exceptions and extremes will always be there, on that we agree completely. The DIFFERENCE is that while the R-10's were the Cat's Meow some time ago, and then the H&N FM were the CM, you now have MORE contenders and MORE products vying for the top spots.
A $400 rifle of 20 years ago is NOT a $400 rifle now. Look at the CPI:
If we take the Baikal IZH 45 - 46 then 46 M at its introductory price (1988) of $160, it would be currently worth about $350 (just CPI escalation), not too far from what it retails for in those places where you can still buy them. Obvious problem is that it would be illegal to import it to the USA.
You talk of JSB, I met Jozef some time ago, about the time when he was transferring ownership to the employees led by Pavel and Michal, both very good and dear friends. What you do not mention is that JSB has gone from making ONE type of pellet to making well over 40 when you count all the variations in all the calibers and brandings. I remember paying $12.00 for a tin of exacts in 2000, they are now $13.99 (and if you buy 4 you only pay for three) when the CPI would indicate they should be $18.00. Is that not a great improvement? More uniformity, more accuracy, for less money, in real terms.
Look at how FT was played 30 years ago, the game now is MUCH more difficult. Have you wondered: Why? Have the shooters improved that much? Don't think so. We simply have MORE equipment available at "accessible" prices to more shooters.
Same goes for Match shooting, did they have the decimal system even 10 years ago? And the "dueling" finals?
So, you may disagree all you want, the reality is there for all who CARE to see.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Could be,butt I have the same brand,same product by same company and made in three different countries....and though same "product" the cost is different for all three .....for a moment lets forget about labor cost....there is a difference in the materials used....So I am talking about Good quality hiking boots....Italian company known for making great hiking boots....Ones made in Italy cost more and the ones made in Romania are just as good..for me..butt I also bought the same boot made in China,,,$40 or more cheaper....the materials used in the China made boots are not as good and there is less real leather....thus the price difference....a lot of people would be happy to save $40 and the China boots would be "good enough"...and when they wear out just through them away,,,,butt for me the Italian and Romania made boots are so much better and cost so much more that I spend the $100 to rebuild them...we are talking boots that can last for many,many years vs hardly a year...what is it worth to you.....I need to wear good boots that support my feet and help take pressure off my back,Fact is good boots are a real need for me = more money for the quality I need....so in the end companies know there are people that do not mind a "cheaper product"and there are still those that have to have a better product....and that is for about any product made.......ask yourself what do you want and does the cost really justify the cost...for me always If the product helps with My quality of life....
Could be,butt I have the same brand,same product by same company and made in three different countries....and though same "product" the cost is different for all three .....for a moment lets forget about labor cost....there is a difference in the materials used....So I am talking about Good quality hiking boots....Italian company known for making great hiking boots....Ones made in Italy cost more and the ones made in Romania are just as good..for me..butt I also bought the same boot made in China,,,$40 or more cheaper....the materials used in the China made boots are not as good and there is less real leather....thus the price difference....a lot of people would be happy to save $40 and the China boots would be "good enough"...and when they wear out just through them away,,,,butt for me the Italian and Romania made boots are so much better and cost so much more that I spend the $100 to rebuild them...we are talking boots that can last for many,many years vs hardly a year...what is it worth to you.....I need to wear good boots that support my feet and help take pressure off my back,Fact is good boots are a real need for me = more money for the quality I need....so in the end companies know there are people that do not mind a "cheaper product"and there are still those that have to have a better product....and that is for about any product made.......ask yourself what do you want and does the cost really justify the cost...for me always If the product helps with My quality of life....
Have you tried Limmer Boots? I just bought a pair and love them. I like not having a seem in the heal area.
Thanks,
David Enoch
One way to find out. You can get a Norica .177 Black Eagle off Amazon for $110(today). That's about half what they use to go for. Mines a keeper. Mechanically same gun as their Marvic and Storm, different stocks and muzzle breaks, and they're $300+. I also have a .22 Norica Massimo, same gun different exterior. They don't make that one anymore. A PA refurb that came in a foam padded box labeled show material, $150. I killed several wine bottle corks with it at 25 yards a couple of days ago. I've read the TF 89 is a clone of these model Noricas. The Noricas in plastic stocks are not very good.
During the 80's I purchases a Beeman R7 (ssn 898563) and I think the cost was between $160-$180. That same range today would be between $382-$430 (says google). I can purchase a new R7 at Pyramyd Air for $299.99 and maybe cheaper other places or on sale. Both rifles are Beeman R7's, both made in Germany. Would todays R7 be better than the one from the '80's? I would think that better manufacturing techniques and materials would be available today?
Also how would Chinese manufactured Beeman rifles fare to those made in Germany.
I also purchases a FWB 300s and a R1 (left hand stock) during that same period. Still have the 300 but the R1 was loaned to a friend, he moved in the early '90's and I have not seen him or the rifle since. I do miss the rifle.
Thanks Mike
