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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1027
October 13, 2020 16:06:40  

i had emailed Sig to see if they have parts for there Super Target 

i got one third hand and it has a buggered up screw, i have no idea why

but the email states-----our guns are not end user serviceable------no part available or part diagram

so Sig custom service is, there is no customer service 

i told them they were arrogant to think we as end users could not fix there damn guns and a bit more 

the majority of us could take that pistol apart and put it back to together just as easy as there techs 

the pistol has the trigger assemble mount to the valve and a spring assemble tied to the grip frame 

my opinion is think twice when thinking about buying SIG air guns 

take care 

Michael Wolfram


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SteveP
(@stevep)
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 56
October 13, 2020 17:36:23  

Their new Sig ASP20 is the same and what kept me from potentially buying one. About all you can do is adjust the trigger, anything else voids the very generous 5 year warranty they give you with the rifle. Even seen where a buyer was told by the retailer he purchased his from that they were not allowed to touch them and should a buyer have a warranty issue, they were to be directed to contact Sig to have it handled.

You've already gotten to experience how they handle parts requests...lol.


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 502
October 13, 2020 19:17:37  

I too was initially tempted by the ASP20, based on Tom Gaylord's review.  But I became COMPLETELY turned off by the lack of factory support.  Heck, I can still buy parts from Crosman for guns they haven't made in 30 years! (sometimes.)  I chose to resist the commodification of fine airguns by not buying from Sig.

Looks on paper like a fine rifle, but no thanks for me.


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1027
October 13, 2020 20:30:21  

Crosman and Daisy will help when ever we as shooter need it 

Gamo also will not sell parts you can get a seal or to 

and Umarex is a bit restrictive also 

i told William Saunders i would post there response and i wrote my whole name and these post will show up on Google so they can pull there heads out of there backsides and help us or find there sales go down 

PA and all other seller should demand it 


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 560

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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1027
October 14, 2020 02:08:06  

yea so what about the FAS 6004         i do own one but i have never asked them for parts 


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 560
October 14, 2020 09:50:19  

Mike;

I was just trying to help. Clearly I get on your nerves as much as you get on mine.

If you cannot see that they are the same gun, then we are probably talking about different things.

At least the first SIG-Sauer Supertarget's I saw (IWA's 2018 & 2019) were nothing but re-bodied FAS's, and when I talked with the Chiappa people they acknowledged it. When I inquired about spare parts for the FAS 6004, Don Madole sent me a nice Email:

" Hello Hector,

I was given you card from Susanna Chiappa, whom you met at the IWA, to contact you for information on ordering parts.  Parts can be ordered via phone at 937-835-5000 M-F from 9am to 4pm EST.  Also orders may be sent in via email to: info@chiappafirearms.com.

Please contact me if you have any questions.

Best Regards"

So, contact Chiappa Firearms for spare parts for these guns, apart from the "body" (and that includes the hammer/slide-cocking block) the parts should work.

On the rifle, I wrote it very clearly in my blog that the ASP20 was not intended for airgunners, but for the "normal" SIG-Sauer customer who is a firearms shooter. It's a marketing decision which you may or may not agree with, but IMHO complaining after having access to information that describes exactly what you are complaining about makes no sense to me.

The ASP-20 featured in my blog a year ago had his barrel-block re-fitted and has won several top places in Silhouette shoots, so they are accurate, and once the idiosyncratic "barrel wedge block" is re-fitted properly with washers, it works like a charm.

Now, what will SIG-Sauer do about airguns without the engineering driver they had, I really do not know. MOST probably, they will write-off their foray into airguns as a "failed initiative", which is a pity but, Hey!, it's THEIR party . . .

Anyway, apologies if I rubbed you the wrong way.

 

 

 

HM


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1027
October 16, 2020 16:53:51  

so let assume that some of the parts of the Sig and the FAS are the same 

and those parts are more then like the power plant and barrel just guess at this point 

but what else a few screws a pin or 2 and then what 

so what you have is a Chevy engine put a Ford body but when a break a Ford tail light i will need to go the Ford dealer for that tail light 

what is the same and what is different makes the 2 pistols different in the long run and in that case not all the parts are interchangeable and what you need for a Sig is not on the 6004 you have no where to go for said part

i want one screw some owner of the Sig pistol had been mess up and i wanted a new one 

could i fix it maybe but once you mess up a square shoulder screw is messed up for ever 

 

and i do own both pistols 


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 990
October 16, 2020 17:17:11  
Posted by: @marflow

,

. .

? ?

, , , .

, , .

.

!

!

 

 .

Fixed that for you.

I'm glad that we were finally allowed to know the nature of the mechanical failure. Operator error (no blame)

 

Now, if we'd like to talk cars... the neighbor's kid threw a ball at the other neighbor's Nissan. Left a big mark!

Avoid Nissan! You've been warned!

 

Posted by: @marflow

yea so what about the FAS 6004         i do own one but i have never asked them for parts 

Maybe with this new info, you could check compatibility on that screw, and then you'll know exactly who to ask.

Otherwise https://airgunwarriors.com/community/metal-shop/fix-the-screws/

 

While we're on Sig's outsourcing... I wouldn't pay what they asked for a Mosquito. Just no.

Sig dropped the contract with GSG, German Sport Guns, (because all the engineers couldn't overcome an incorrectly spec'd recoil spring on a blowback pistol)  and this Jan the GSG branded version was going for $189 delivered.

Fixed the recoil spring issue easily (by tossing the can on LOL) and very happy with the purchase.

Sometimes farming things out provides a smaller company with the momentum to enter the market in a meaningful way.

 

edit to clarify spring as mechanical device vs spring as a season


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Chemclay
(@chemclay)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 41
October 17, 2020 12:00:19  

HM

Please explain "barrel-block re-fitted" from your previous post.  Thank you

Ron

 


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boscoebrea
(@boscoebrea)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 280
October 17, 2020 14:12:30  

Arrogant for a reason.I think you can cross reference screws and bolts and nuts and so forth.

  I do agree parts should be available for anything sold,I thought is was a law,though maybe not things that can endanger people.

   I always liked to work my way around problems,though it takes time and in cases like this too much time for something so simple,like a screw.

 Arrogant is a safe guard in cases like this.Sig Sauer makes good stuff,they do not like others to try to change it,as you say look elsewhere .


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 560
October 19, 2020 16:15:37  

@chemclay

A made-to-measure steel block was cut and used to close the forks just a tad while ensuring that we kept them parallel.

Then the block received adhesive UHDPE sideplates so that the barrel travels and closes exactly where it should.

Accuracy is as good as the best break-barrels without the locking lever to operate for opening.

The "Wedge-Lock" system is good, but not enough by itself to ensure consistent, stress-free, closure.

JMHO

 

 

 

 

 

HM


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Chemclay
(@chemclay)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 41
October 20, 2020 10:11:01  

HM

Having read your article, I actually like the idea of "a powder burner's airgun." I just want to shoot, and I've rediscovered my backyard; I set targets from 10-50 yds and shoot a Hw50s and a HW 97k. My concern is will I be satisfied with the Sig asp20 .177. Do you have any reassurences or suggestions?


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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Posts: 560
October 20, 2020 17:51:25  
Posted by: @chemclay

HM

Having read your article, I actually like the idea of "a powder burner's airgun." I just want to shoot, and I've rediscovered my backyard; I set targets from 10-50 yds and shoot a Hw50s and a HW 97k. My concern is will I be satisfied with the Sig asp20 .177. Do you have any reassurences or suggestions?

I am sure you will like the ASP20, but I would get it in 0.22" there is too much power in that powerplant for the 0.177".

Only suggestion is to close the action SLOWLY. Closing it quickly does not allow the Wedge-Lock to do its job without stressing the barrel and block. Stresses that are freed when the piston flies forwards and before the pellet leaves the barrel.

Your gun will tell you if that is the case with yours at the target. In the three I have handled it has been the case; but in airguns, almost every single specimen is a law unto its own. And testing is part of the fun anyway!

HTH, and keep us posted!

 

 

 

 

 

HM


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 990
October 21, 2020 11:08:56  
Posted by: @chemclay

I actually like the idea of "a powder burner's airgun." I just want to shoot.

Welcome to the club.

I had just managed to hoard enough rimfire to feel comfortable shooting again... then... 2020.


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Chemclay
(@chemclay)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 41
October 21, 2020 11:39:43  

I would get it in 0.22" there is too much power in that powerplant for the 0.177"

HM

I like .177; would there be ill effects on the asp20 using it in .177?


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Chemclay
(@chemclay)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 41
October 21, 2020 11:40:38  

I had just managed to hoard enough rimfire to feel comfortable shooting again... then... 2020.

 

I really understand that.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 990
October 21, 2020 12:18:27  
Posted by: @chemclay

I like .177; would there be ill effects on the asp20 using it in .177?

Harsh shot cycle and the gun will prefer heavier pellets to keep velocity subsonic.

Crosman domes in .22 are cheap at Walmart, I've never paid more than $7/500.


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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Posts: 560
October 21, 2020 17:12:37  
Posted by: @chemclay

I like .177; would there be ill effects on the asp20 using it in .177?

Would you run a racecar with a street muffler?

No "ill effects" per se, but you are choking the engine/machine. If you want a flat trajectory, and feel that the 0.177" gives you that, then try shooting the GTO's (11.75 grs.) in the gun. They are about as heavy as the heavy 0.177" pellets and the improved expansion ratio makes the shot cycle a bit more "gentle".

In the end, as far as trajectory is concerned, there is not too much of a difference between calibers and pellet weights as long as the MV is the same. So, for a 20 ft-lbs gun shooting an 11.75 grs pellet, the trajectory is going to be pretty much the same as any other airgun/caliber/pelllet shooting in the 880 fps region.

Differences will start appearing after yard 37-45.

Now, if you are into long range, then the 18 grs. JSB proved very good in the guns I have handled and tested, and that is a 100 yard pellet. In SOME guns the 16 grainers outshoot the 18's, but that is a powerplant restriction and therefore the heavy pellet is starting at a lower MV.

As the old saying goes: "It's your dime, Mr"  ROFL!

Think it over and keep us posted!

 

 

 

 

HM

 

 


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Chemclay
(@chemclay)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 41
October 21, 2020 22:46:59  

well, now I'm confused. I was hoping .177 10.5 pellets would give the distance shooting.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 990
October 22, 2020 01:57:50  

22 makes more efficient use of the powerplant than 177, so it's not as simple as apples to apples.

 

There is also a sort of sweet spot in pellet weight for any given powerplant. Too light and it shoots funny, too heavy and it shoots funny.

 

Now that we've mentioned heavies, I can hear the R9 mumbling obscenities from the corner.

It makes around 14.5 fpe, but with extra light, or extra heavy pellets, you can shave a pound or more off. Further, the "feel" of the shot with 10.5gr heavies is completely different. Like something is wrong with it.

Step down to 9.2 and it's good, 8.2 is perfect, anything lighter than a 7.9 is moving away from the ideal, Hobbies are no good at all, and the alloy pellets make you worry about breaking the gun.

Interestingly, the shot cycle at either end of the spectrum is equally bad, and I've switched from 8.2gr to 9.2gr (Miestekugelns to Supermags) without changing my zero. Still hitting squirrels at 40 yards with no issues.

 

Now that I looked at prices, instead of just stats, for that kind of money I'd much rather have a Diana 54.

Partially for the parts availability, and partly because it's a known quantity. Power is roughly the same, and I'd bet $100 on the 54 outperforming the Sig in un-tinkered configuration.

 

Now, does anyone know why the 54 is OOS everywhere?


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Chemclay
(@chemclay)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 41
October 22, 2020 11:49:39  

Thanks; really good stuff to consider; I need to investigate more.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 990
October 22, 2020 12:11:15  

@chemclay

There has been E-X-T-E-N-S-I-V-E discussion of 177 vs 22 at various ranges.

If you'd like to hunt around, the external ballistics calculator I most often see quoted is called "Chairgun"

Or, perhaps another member could dig up a thread from the old yellow?

 

I don't really target shoot or crunch ballistics, I kill stuff.

So, a combination either works, or it doesn't.

22s around 15fpe don't fit my needs, but around 20-23fpe they become much more useful.

IF we can safely assume that your current rifles are .177, then a .22 might be a welcome step up in whackability.

 

The 54 part, that isn't really open to debate.

There are a metric farkton of spring rifles in circulation, no need to get the shiny (soon to be discontinued) not really an improvement model.

 


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straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 287
October 22, 2020 12:33:49  

@gratewhitehuntr

Years ago Chairgun was all the rave...not so much anymore. I tried it and found Chairgun vs airgun to be unbalanced in theory vs reality. Chairgun was useful (for me) to sometimes gather a general baseline but that was it.

Some pellets will obviously do better in airgun X than others. I personally let the gun/pellet do all the research. BC's are of more use at supersonic velocities IMO. I'm not saying they don't have any affect at subsonic, just that I prefer real world results in subsonic air guns.. Theoretical baselines can sometimes be interesting however. As far as .22 vs .177 overall, all I can add is that .177 will without question will shoot flatter at the same power level. I've never done any side by side research with the same gun model in the two different calibers.

This conversation inevitably will include folks citing wind effects, pellet travel time BC's etc.

I may be able to do that side by side comparison one of these days to satisfy my own curiosity.


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
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Posts: 560
October 23, 2020 18:03:27  

The "Old" Air King has left production. It has been discontinued. It is replaced by the 54 AirKing "Pro", stock change and a Harmonics Tuner (Oficially called "HPM" for High Performance Muzzleweight) that allows the user to fine tune the performance of the gun.

0.22" calibers have already been shipped to some markets, the 0.177" are in production as we speak.

Yes, in MANY ways, the 54 will do everything the ASP 20 does and a bit better. And, physically speaking (dimensions and weight), they are not too different either.

I didn't mention the 54 because I didn't want to de-rail the original conversation about SIG-Sauer and the approach to product with a "Bullet-proof Warranty" but "No Service Parts nor Info" attitude.

I still think that if Chemclay wants to discuss this further, a separate thread should be opened. JMHO.

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

 

HM


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Chemclay
(@chemclay)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 41
October 23, 2020 19:47:43  

I'd like to do that. What title should I use?


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