I have never shot lead free pellets through any of my guns in fear of ruining any of my accurate guns.
I have spoken with a couple of shooters who primarily used lead free pellets who reported recently that their accuracy isn't as good as it used to be and their pellet fit into the leade is loose now.
This is only a couple of years of shooting lead free pellets.
Switching back to normal lead pellets did not help them get their accuracy back after cleaning their barrels and seasoning and still not as good accuracy as they used to be.
First question I will be asking when buying a used gun is if lead free pellets were ever shot in it before buying.
FYI
HA
I have never shot lead free pellets through any of my guns in fear of ruining any of my accurate guns.
I have spoken with a couple of shooters who primarily used lead free pellets who reported recently that their accuracy isn't as good as it used to be and their pellet fit into the leade is loose now.
This is only a couple of years of shooting lead free pellets.
Switching back to normal lead pellets did not help them get their accuracy back after cleaning their barrels and seasoning and still not as good accuracy as they used to be.
First question I will be asking when buying a used gun is if lead free pellets were ever shot in it before buying.
FYI
HA
I find what you have described to be very-important to define and quantify, what with the possibility of such far-reaching and expensive ramifications.
I'd like to believe that the makers of lead-free pellets would have protected their customers from such problems when they were choosing substitute materials, but I'm afraid that my dealings with several companies and situations over the years--when big money is on the line--have left me somewhat jaded and skeptical.
I haven't researched the subject--at least not yet--but what you wrote, together with something I observed within the last year, suddenly turned-on a light bulb for me and has me wondering what the reality of the situation might be.
I have occasionally-used lead fishing sinkers in the past to weight air rifle stocks in the right places for better balance and accuracy. I've always liked that they were fairly-easy to hammer into the shape I desired. But some of the sinkers I received more-recently were much harder to shape because the alloy used was noticeably harder. (Me: "???"). It was only after that, that I began to notice the "Lead-free" tags inside the plastic shipping bags in which the sinkers arrived. The hardness of the material(s) being used, compared to lead, was very-different.
Could that same, harder fishing sinker material be related to the material being used as the substitute for lead in air gun pellets? I think I will be keenly-watching how this situation plays out. I'd hate to ruin a good barrel because of it. And I feel sorry for any 'guinea pigs' among our fellow-shooters who shoulder the cost of providing the answer in the meantime.
I don't want to raise a false alarm here by my comments. What I described regarding my experience with the new, lead-free sinkers may have no connection whatsoever to air gun pellets. Maybe it will all be fine.
https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/look-future-lead-free-pellets/
just some reading the test will be held in your homeroom class on Tuesday
I have never shot lead free pellets through any of my guns in fear of ruining any of my accurate guns.
I have spoken with a couple of shooters who primarily used lead free pellets who reported recently that their accuracy isn't as good as it used to be and their pellet fit into the leade is loose now.
This is only a couple of years of shooting lead free pellets.
Switching back to normal lead pellets did not help them get their accuracy back after cleaning their barrels and seasoning and still not as good accuracy as they used to be.
First question I will be asking when buying a used gun is if lead free pellets were ever shot in it before buying.
FYI
HA
I have shot quite a lot of tin pellets.
From H&N and JSB (under the GTO brand). As long as the pellets are clean, lubed, and shot at reasonable speeds, there cannot be any excessive wear in the barrels. In SOME cases, it COULD be that the idea behind the use of non-lead pellets was to get into the hypersonic range of MV's, if that is the case, then there might be other factors bringing in a premature inaccuracy of the guns.
Please note that I am not disputing this happened, or that it could happen, just that there are too many variables to assign the loss of accuracy to a single cause.
Now, Nickel, Gold, Zinc and Aluminum are COMPLETELY different stories:
Aluminun is the result of electrolyzing a SOLUTION of Bauxite in Cryolite, there are very few commercial grade aluminums that can be guaranteed to be aluminum oxide inclusions free. Aluminum oxide is an abrasive; aggresive, abrasive.
Everybody thinks aluminum is soft, and aluminum itself is, but in cheap aluminums, you will surely find some oxide inclusions and I doubt that Skenco uses the purest, oxide-free aluminum for their pellets.
If you doubt the quality of your aluminum, just try to scratch a piece of glass with it, If it gets scratched then the aluminum in your hands has aluminum oxide inclusions.
Aluminum oxide is almost as hard as diamond (9 vs. 10), so THAT COULD erode a barrel.
Gold and nickel also form crystals that could be abrasive.
The plastic carriers (not really sabots), of the aluminum/zinc heads may also be a source of barrel erosion, the electro-static characteristics of the plastic make it a dust magnet, and dust is made 80% of silica, another abrasive.
And Zinc dissolves steel. At the MV's that we use the surface temperature of the pellet could be enough to melt the zinc, that then will dissolve the steel it contacts.
It's tempting to lump all "non-lead" pellets into the same bucket, reality is that there are important differences.
As long as you lube your pellets and you keep to the maximum MV of around 875 fps, there should be no damage from pure tin pellets.
I would be interested in receiving data from the shooters that claim that non-lead pellets eroded their accuracy. If you can I would appreciate some contact information.
TIA!
HM
Just discovered this thread. Lots of good info.
I was thinking that making the metallic part about 1 to 1.5 thousandths smaller than the barrel, including choked barrels, would prevent metal contact while the carrier engages the rifling.
That still leaves the problem of heated plastic coating the barrels of the nitro and spring rifles. Humm. . . . Can plastic be made to withstand those temps?
Simple answer for me: Stock up on lead pellets.
I've been shooting lead-free for a long time now. No problems noted after thousands of rounds. If anything, the lead fouled my barrels and required extensive cleaning to regain accuracy. Lead-free has never done this to any of my guns so far - thousands of rounds later... I shoot lots of H&N and GTOs.
Also, I talked directly to Predator and they state their pellets are nearly pure tin. So any worries about complex alloys being a factor are not - at least for Predator GTOs. I can make an assumption that the other lead-free alloys will be similar. As for any abrasive oxides - show me the proof - if not, it is in a category of urban legend.
Facts are good. And the only info stating lead-free can damage a barrel is opinion and speculation, not a measurable fact. The unmistakable fact is that a steel barrel, even "soft" steel, is far harder than tin. A review of the riflings in my barrels reveals pristine lands.
This is an interesting thread.
The 1st thing that came to my mind, as a boolit caster, lead ALLOY has no absolute hardness number.
It's common to manipulate boolit hardness to prevent leading, or control expansion. (Crosman domes?)
But, LEAD FREE doesn't say what IS in the pellet, only what ISN'T in them.
Google says... "Pure lead has a Brinell hardness # of about 4.
Most hard cast bullets will have a Brinell hardness # of 11 to 30 and as such are several times harder than lead.
The Brinell Hardness of Pure Tin is approximately 2.5."
BUT... then I went to http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?9318-Brinell-Hardness-of-Tin
Try the last post of page #1, clear as mud.
No no... I'm doing it wrong... we want lead free! Hmm...
Midway says
What else is lead free?
For YEARS I've been picking up scrap pewter as a cheap means of adding tin to my casting alloy.
Let's see how that turns out, you'd think I might have looked it up a long time ago huh?
Here is a pewter casting alloy, look near the bottom, physical characteristics.
I've also had pewter which was dead soft (softer than lead) 100% bound for the melter, since I can't verify content.
Was it pure lead? Doubtful. Was it pure tin? Maybe.
Much of the pewter was in the hardness range of a water quenched, tempered, lead alloy bullet, 20-30 Brinell .
I don't have a great answer, other than the above pictured alloy being well within the normal lead alloy hardness range.
Some data points for the discussion, and thanks to the other posters.
And Zinc dissolves steel. At the MV's that we use the surface temperature of the pellet could be enough to melt the zinc, that then will dissolve the steel it contacts.
HM
Please explain what "dissolves steel" means. I spent most of a lifetime erecting steel that was plated with pure zinc and never heard of it being detrimental to steel. It is galvanized to protect it from corrosion. The zinc is much softer than steel but I do not think I would want pellets made from it
Please explain what "dissolves steel" means. I spent most of a lifetime erecting steel that was plated with pure zinc and never heard of it being detrimental to steel. It is galvanized to protect it from corrosion.
For TL;DR scroll down.
This is probably a reference to the behavior of metals with dissimilar electrical potential which occurs in the presence of electrolytic liquids, called "Galvanic Corrosion" . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
HM is not quite right OR wrong with "dissolves" since there is a reaction, but it's more complicated than JUST that.
The very reason for coating steel in zinc, is to preferentially consume the zinc (electrically) while preserving the steel, and a continuous layer of zinc will protect the underlaying steel.
There will be oxidization of steel, if the steel is exposed, and in contact with Zn (zinc) a preferential conversion of steel from Fe (iron) into Fe2O3 (red rust) will proceed.
Continuous zinc coating does prevent this, and the following sentence contains important variables.
Total surface area of the dissimilar metals is an influential factor, as would be passivization (bluing) inside the steel barrel.
Bluing has already converted the iron (Fe) into (magnetite) Fe3O4, and magnetite is SLOW to revert to red rust.
Zinc coated exterior steel panels are subject to carbonic acid (rainwater), and the hydrogen ions present a different corrosive environment. This last sentence could be expounded on, but it's irrelevant to the topic at hand.
What I think I know, I could be wrong, and would like to learn something if I am.
Layman's version... TL;DR
Doesn't happen unless you leave the barrel substantially wet with an electrically conductive liquid. Electrolyte required.
Galvanized metal panels used outdoors are a poor comparison, since rain water is acidic due to atmospheric CO2.
None of this disagrees with Mr. Vanpool's statement, excepting that an incomplete zinc coating makes the little bit of exposed steel rust faster.
As said, surface area plays a big part, AND the ratios of surface areas. (see chart below)
A single stainless bolt in a large mild steel assembly is low risk, where a single mild steel bolt in a large stainless assembly = destruction.
Important FACT required to interpret the table below, YOU WERE TAUGHT ELECTRICITY BACKWARDS. (Ben Franklin's fault)
Current DOES NOT flow from Pos->Neg, current flows (anode->cathode) aka Neg->Pos (disclaimer for EE fiddling LOL)
This post took a minute to develop, hopefully someone finds it helpful.
Hmmmm, again.
OK, here we go:
@MichaelM.- using a non-discarding sabot in airguns needs a substantially better "plastic" than would be allowed by the price of the pellets. Years ago, Prometheus (UK) used to sell a SABO pellet that was a discarding sabot. Problem was that the cost of the discarding part was so high that the projectiles themselves were VERY SHODDILY made and accuracy was real bad. At present, we would have the technology and the materials needed, but the idea needs re-visiting completely; as in a whole re-design of the airgun itself, as well as of the projectile.
@ Crazyhorse.- Wrong answer. Unless you are planning on shooting ONLY in your OWN property, and then you are willing to disclose to all potential buyers that there is lead in the property with the consequent loss of equity. At the pace we're going, the USE of lead outside of specific venues (like ranges) may soon be forbidden. Not what I want, not what I wish, but something I am preparing for. YMMV.
@Droidiphile.- Your statement is absolutely true for QUALITY lead free projectiles (H&N's Greens and JSB's GTO's), for REALLY CHEAP thingies, there is cause for concern. For example: Some early "lead free" had plastic non-discarding sabot around a steel insert. And the plastic was really badly made, offset, crooked, all the faults you can imagine, and yet they were sold as "re-usable", and so people bought them. Yes, recipe for disaster. From there, some shooters just stick to OLD legends without thinking how much things have changed in the last 5 years, let alone 2 decades.
@GrateWhiteHunter (1) .- I've cast hundreds of bullets, PB's and airguns; back in the 2K boundary layer I started shooting a Talon with a discarded Santa Barbara barrel in 0.243". Really good. Both HP's and Solids. The solids had no problem going through almost anything, the HP's were great deer projectiles, specially in the Jungle of Campeche. I've also swaged thousands of bullets, from my own H-Mantle type 0.308" to 0.172" "pellets" for use in 0.17" cal firearms barrels, again, since way back in 2k.
The problem with all the disparity on the sources is not the "tin" word, but the "pure" word. The hardness of the "Tin" you can get changes drastically with a few parts PER TEN THOUSAND of contaminants. INDUSTRIALLY PURE Tin is taken as being anything above 99.95% Tin, specially if Arsenic and Antimony are less than 0.005%; most common contaminant is lead and that is not a big hardness contributor. In THAT case, hardness will be between BHn 4 and 6.
SOME companies offer Metallurgic-ally Pure Tin (four nines), in THAT case hardness will be around 2-3
Now, Lab-grade Tin will be in the 2's.
THAT's how much difference a "little contamination" can make. Go to contamination levels of 2-5% and you're into the 20's for BHn.
Wikipedia table is "Hardness of the elements" so there is no presumption that the hardness numbers listed there are NOT from Crystalline pure elements that, again, have completely different characteristics from the element itself. Just think Carbon and Diamonds. Same element. . . .
As far as my sources tell me, H&N and JSB are both using the "better grades" of industrially pure tin (four nines), and there is a reason for this: Swaging dies would burst if the hardness of the material exceeded BHn of about 6, and would not "fill well" at BHN numbers higher than 4.
MOST Commercial grade Tin (as in pure tin solder) is about 99.9% pure and that would relate to a BHn of about 10.
"Pewter" doesn't refer either to ONE specific alloy, there's very bad grade (mostly lead) pewter used for decorations only. Most pewter used for plates, tankards, and the like, have no lead at all. But it does need some alloying agent to provide usefulness, otherwise things would bend at the first wash.
@ TVP.- Molten Zinc dissolves steel. Yes. It has NOTHING to do with galvanic reactive pairs. It's simply a fact of life. WHY, I cannot tell you, but it was sorely evident in the differences in safety levers in the LGU/LGV triggers, read this: https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-supercustom-triggers-for-the-walther-lgu-and-lgv If you really want to understand this, there is a good paper here: https://researchrepository.wvu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3767&context=etd but this paper deals with mostly industrial tooling steels, not the less-alloyed steels used in airgun barrels. In that paper you can see this chart:
So, yes it happens, the purer the iron, the more it dissolves in Zinc.
@GrateWhiteHunter (2).- Precisely because much of the modern steel plate we use (mostly for appliances and cars) has been galvanized, we KNOW that Zinc dissolves iron, and/or the iron in steel. The hardware and tools used in those processes suffer substantial reductions in diameter and galling is hard and relentless.
We also know that Zinc dissolves iron/steel because of those items that are cast in Zinc using steel moulds. Pressure cast zinc parts can be strong enough for some purposes, cheap and precise enough. And that dictates their inclusion in a design, like the Walther safety pawl of the above mentioned article. As parts are cast, the mould grows from the inside...
Galvanic pairs are sorely known by EE because of the early failure of ACSR (Aluminum Cables Steel Reinforced) cables in coastal zones, and that is a phenomenon I know well, but it is NOT the phenomenon we deal with when we try to use Zinc and steel in contact at very high temperatures.
Now, AFTER that article about the Walthers, and for a project I am working on, I have researched a bit more into the interaction of pure zinc with the steel of barrels, and I found at least a few sources that claim that a zinc coating of the bore produced by shooting high velocity/Zinc base projectiles from PB's is beneficial to the barrel, preventing leading even at higher than normal MV's.
This claim is not without reason: Zinc is a lubricant under pressure. And its lubricity seems to be independent of the relative speed of the two surfaces. For a while Lyman made special dies that produced lead bullets that had a "riveted" zinc washer at the base or around the middle. Google for 'Prot-X bullet moulds'. The process of coating the bore with Zinc was called "Sherardizing", and there is still one company offering the Zinc washers for the purpose.
A LOT more research is needed, but this is what is wonderful about airguns, there is SO much still to be discovered.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I appreciate the concise response from someone obviously more educated than me. My knowledge of galvanizing and cathodic protection come mostly from practical experience working with it. I always assumed with zinc galvanizing in atmospheric environments that the zinc was mostly a physical barrier that prevented the underlying steel from oxidizing. But I also buried many miles of iron pipe in the ground and protected it with cathodic protection by electrically bonding a zinc cathode to the piping. The piping itself was not plated and would last for decades if the cathodes were maintained.
My question for Hector was, How can zinc dissolve steel if it is so widely used to protect it? But zinc IMHO would be a very poor choice for making pellets.
I have not had the urge to try any lead free pellets yet (guess I am not eco-friendly). I would think tin may be the best choice of the materials mentioned but have no evidence to back that thought. I know I used lead for years as a thread sealer in threaded pipe joints (non potable water) and it worked well to fill any irregularities and act as a thread lubricant. I also know that if any zinc were in the thread (from the galvanizing process) that it would gall badly and prevent the joint from "making up" leak tight. So I see zinc acting similarly in a gun barrel, smearing and building up quickly. Zinc may work as an alloying agent but not as a base material. I don't think the zinc would hurt the barrel but it might be he11 to get out.
that is gonna take some time to digest, thanks for the additional info
Edit... perhaps you could answer some of the immediate questions, and save some searching?
What is the primary mechanism for the erosion of steel in the molten bath?
How does temperature of the steel effect the rate?
Do residual compounds from the pickling process influence the bath's behavior?
Does the same dissolution action occur against oxidized iron?
Terry, wiki had this cool picture.
Believe it or not, the zinc on the wall would last longer if someone kept replacing the steel mailbox LOL
I promise I'll try to stay on topic after this pic...
that is gonna take some time to digest, thanks for the additional info
Edit... perhaps you could answer some of the immediate questions, and save some searching?
What is the primary mechanism for the erosion of steel in the molten bath?
How does temperature of the steel effect the rate?
Do residual compounds from the pickling process influence the bath's behavior?
Does the same dissolution action occur against oxidized iron?
Terry, wiki had this cool picture.
Believe it or not, the zinc on the wall would last longer if someone kept replacing the steel mailbox LOL
I promise I'll try to stay on topic after this pic...
As far as I have understood from the paper I referenced above, the "erosion" is the combination of diffusion, dissolution and oxidization.
It seems that everything starts with the molten zinc that is small enough, and active enough to diffuse INTO the steel matrix. Further research has shown that OTHER metals are also dissolved in Zinc. So it seems that molten Zinc is quite capable:
And temperature of the molten Zn has a lot of bearing on the speed of the dissolution:
Do note that the temperatures used for these experiments are the normal for galvanizing and galvannealing.
Precisely the results of some "contaminants" is what led to the discovery that aluminum in the Zn bath could be of some use to protect the steel machinery parts.
It SEEMS that the initial process of the galvanizing is a slight surface oxidation of the iron that can then capture and crystallyze with the Zinc to make solid phase that becomes hard and rust resistant. But that comes from an MSc thesis and I have not seen any further substantive proof.
Now, before anyone says "Use Stainless Steel" you can see from the first chart that Stainless 310 is completely dissolved in 50 hours at 440 C.
Personally, I find it interesting that Titanium also dissolves completely, LOL!
DO READ in full the document, it is interesting and offers a lot of information.
HTH
HM
Perhaps you should read this: https://hawkbullets.com/prot-x-bore.html
Thanks for providing that info about lead in threads for sealing and the need for galvanizing absence, while it makes a lot of sense it is ALWAYS nice when someone can shed practical real-world experience that shows that things happen the way they do.
Thanks!
HM
I have never shot lead free pellets through any of my guns in fear of ruining any of my accurate guns.
I have spoken with a couple of shooters who primarily used lead free pellets who reported recently that their accuracy isn't as good as it used to be and their pellet fit into the leade is loose now.
This is only a couple of years of shooting lead free pellets.
Switching back to normal lead pellets did not help them get their accuracy back after cleaning their barrels and seasoning and still not as good accuracy as they used to be.
First question I will be asking when buying a used gun is if lead free pellets were ever shot in it before buying.
FYI
HA
I have shot quite a lot of tin pellets.
From H&N and JSB (under the GTO brand). As long as the pellets are clean, lubed, and shot at reasonable speeds, there cannot be any excessive wear in the barrels. In SOME cases, it COULD be that the idea behind the use of non-lead pellets was to get into the hypersonic range of MV's, if that is the case, then there might be other factors bringing in a premature inaccuracy of the guns.
Please note that I am not disputing this happened, or that it could happen, just that there are too many variables to assign the loss of accuracy to a single cause.
Now, Nickel, Gold, Zinc and Aluminum are COMPLETELY different stories:
Aluminun is the result of electrolyzing a SOLUTION of Bauxite in Cryolite, there are very few commercial grade aluminums that can be guaranteed to be aluminum oxide inclusions free. Aluminum oxide is an abrasive; aggresive, abrasive.
Everybody thinks aluminum is soft, and aluminum itself is, but in cheap aluminums, you will surely find some oxide inclusions and I doubt that Skenco uses the purest, oxide-free aluminum for their pellets.
If you doubt the quality of your aluminum, just try to scratch a piece of glass with it, If it gets scratched then the aluminum in your hands has aluminum oxide inclusions.
Aluminum oxide is almost as hard as diamond (9 vs. 10), so THAT COULD erode a barrel.
Gold and nickel also form crystals that could be abrasive.
The plastic carriers (not really sabots), of the aluminum/zinc heads may also be a source of barrel erosion, the electro-static characteristics of the plastic make it a dust magnet, and dust is made 80% of silica, another abrasive.
And Zinc dissolves steel. At the MV's that we use the surface temperature of the pellet could be enough to melt the zinc, that then will dissolve the steel it contacts.
It's tempting to lump all "non-lead" pellets into the same bucket, reality is that there are important differences.
As long as you lube your pellets and you keep to the maximum MV of around 875 fps, there should be no damage from pure tin pellets.
I would be interested in receiving data from the shooters that claim that non-lead pellets eroded their accuracy. If you can I would appreciate some contact information.
TIA!
HM
I absolutely agree with most you said. But gold, silver, copper, palladium and platinum could all be used for pellets in a 99.99% form because of there malleable characteristics. But imagine the cost. Even a tin of solid copper pellet would be way to expensive.
I absolutely agree with most you said. But gold, silver, copper, palladium and platinum could all be used for pellets in a 99.99% form because of there malleable characteristics. But imagine the cost. Even a tin of solid copper pellet would be way to expensive.
Hmmmmm
Let me tell you a story:
A bit less than 5 decades ago there was a film called "Dance with the Vampires". Very successful film, quite a few gorgeous girls in it.
And it started a craze about all things "vampire" that we're still seeing to these days.
As you may recall, it is common "lore" to that fad that silver bullets kill vampires, so, having a plentiful (for that time) and relatively inexpensive (again for that time) supply of pure silver, I decided to give it a go.
It didn't occur to me in my overactive youth to look up the tech specs for each material. But it was RELATIVELY easy to melt, it cast REAL well in common moulds, and the resulting casts were extremely pretty, truly "jewel-like". LOL!
Loaded some for my Ruger SA/SS .357" Mag (as any starting load it was on the low side) and I took them to the range. They shot like CRAP! AND, the SS of the top-strap had a VERY clear discoloration (or ¿should we say "coloration"?) that was the tell tale of a bullet that presented too much resistance at the forcing cone, not enough upset/obturation. Primers were a little bit "too flat". LUCKILY, by the third shot, the revolver stopped.
So, I had some cartridges that were useless.
Somewhat disheartened (I didn't REALLY needed them to shoot great), I decided to find out why.
And so, I looked up the hardness of different metals.
Here is a list of hardnesses of the metals you quoted:
Gold.-188-245 MPa
Silver.- 206-250 MPa
Copper.- 235-878 MPa
Palladium.- 310-610 MPa
Platinum.- 299-500 MPa
Even at the lower (purer) ranges, when we compare that to lead (38-50 MPa), or Tin (51-75 MPa), it is clear that some materials could only be used at PB's pressure levels and impact speeds.
Regardless of the cost.
Some Bismuth (70-94) alloys are interesting from the weight/cost ratio, but those that are malleable enough still are mostly Tin. Problem with Bismuth is that it crystallizes too quickly, rendering a "temper" to the projectiles that make them less than useful. Research into heat-treating (annealing) these alloys is a work in progress.
At some point in time, we MAY find a point where the design of an airgun projectile in copper could fulfill all requirements and still be feasible, but I would assume we need to go deeper into the prohibition of lead to actually warrant it. But for the time being, pure tin seems to be the best current alternative to lead.
As to the bullets of the opening story, I pulled them off the cartridges, added an eyelet and sold them as pendants.
And then cast some more because demand exceeded supply, LOL!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
No... just no. Interesting experiment though... the stuff we do when young!
What you need for vamps is ... wooden ballistic tips!
Far as I know, I was the 1st person to conjure this concept, not in production yet!
What hasn't been mentioned here, is powdered moly lube, to reduce barrel wear, regardless of pellet chemistry.
No... just no. Interesting experiment though... the stuff we do when young!
What you need is ... wooden ballistic tips!
Far as I know, I was the 1st person to conjure this concept, not in production yet!
What hasn't been mentioned here, is powdered moly lube, to reduce barrel wear.
I made some wooden pellets back in the late eighties with lead tips. Appallingly bad at any range. Hitting the target was difficult enough, let alone getting any kind of group.
At about 14 years old back in the late 60's I could not get those odd ball caliber .20 pellets for my Sheridan, so with a drill press I made a mold using a drill bit (approximated the cylindrical pellets shape) and cast my own pellets out of plastic by melting a bucket. I used a #6 shotgun pellet cast into the nose of each pellet for weight and balance since they were flat base. I killed birds, bullfrogs, and a few squirrels with them at close range. I also shot BIC pen tips, which were brass back in the day, out of the brass barrel. BBl wear?-kids did not care about no stinking bbl wear!
LOL!
It's what I love about airgunners. We were, are, and will be "young at heart" always.
GWH 1.- that was not the end of the story. I got enough money out of my "jewelry enterprise" that I could afford some toys, ONE of them was a huge Crossbow (Swiss 30 Meters Match), and I DID cut some 3/4" Dowels and fletched them. A "remote staking" gun, LOL! I found that the stakes flew better when a lead weight was added to the front 1/10 of the length, even with the fletching. Point was made cutting at 15 degrees from four different faces.
Crossbow needed a lever to cock (300 lbs prod), but it was accurate out to about 25 meters. So, unless the vampire attacked from the back, or flying, I was covered. Brownells sells a Moly bore treatment. When used CONSTANTLY (after every 300 Tin pellets), it works. MV's go up and vibrations go down, therefore potential accuracy also should go up. BUT it gets old. In SOME bores I have found T-9 to be a good lubricant for the Tin/Steel interfase. Others prefer Pledge. You can also try CRC Dry Moly paint and paint your pellets. It works up to a point. Somewhat tedious. They do look real nice, though, as if they were "Parkerized"
Miles.- Interesting, but did you use a soft enough wood, so that the pellet could take the rifling? An idea for those that have smoothbore airgunsis to use a wooden toothpick/skewer with a cotton?Q-Tip style of "tail", add a steel point and you have a miniature medieval "bodkin" arrow. Terribly penetrating, but somewhat useless because there are no miniature armored knights attacking en masse.
Will.- I had a similar problem, because I lived in Mexico and you could NOT get 0.20" cal pellets there. So I made a Draw-Down swage die with a 5 mm's drill and a conical reamer. Using 0.22" pellets results were not that bad out to about 30 yards. I have to admit that I would never have dared melt down a bucket, Mum would have had the hide from my behind.
GWH 2.- Up to about 20-30 years ago, MOST airgun barrels were drilled from bar, just like firearms barrels. Then DOM tubing appeared and it became much easier to simply ream and rifle.
At present, you can get DOM tubing made of almost any steel you want. NORMAL steel for airgun barrels is mild steel. L-W has made some airguns barrels for me n special order out of a particularly "stiff" steel made by Krupp. Those barrels are in all my special runs. Apart from the need for that in a breakbarrel, simple mild steel will work well.
Barrels are NOT heat treated, SOME are heat stress relieved, but those are few and far between, and usually need that when they are hammer forged (BSA, TJ, Old Steyrs, etc.) The ideal BB Barrel is smoothbore at 0.172", so to make a gun shoot BOTH, what is usually done is to use less than 0.003" for rifling depth. Not ideal, but doable and workable. The rifling HAS to be wide lands and narrow grooves. In that way, precision BB's can ride the wide lands and quality pellets will engrave on the narrow grooves.
Ideally, smoothbore barrels are reamed out at 0.177" choked, and the pellet swages itself down. DIANA does this in the airguns that are shipped to the Caribbean. Surprising accuracy can be obtained with long pellets and MV's at around 500 fps.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Hector
Yes it was a very soft wood so it engaged the rifling easily. The spin rate was probably way too high as the aerodynamic stability margin was also probably pretty high. Main problem was the CG was way in front of the pellet barrel contact points so your chances of putting the pellet in straight were zero. At least with a soft wood there was no barrel wear.
No... just no. Interesting experiment though... the stuff we do when young!
What you need for vamps is ... wooden ballistic tips!
Far as I know, I was the 1st person to conjure this concept, not in production yet!
What hasn't been mentioned here, is powdered moly lube, to reduce barrel wear, regardless of pellet chemistry.
My dad used to mill ballistic slugs from iron wood for his Mauser .30-06. The wood was labeled "musical instrument quality", really meaning zero defects. Oddly, I don't remember him ever shooting them... Perhaps due to a deficit of vampires ... ?
So then, are all BB guns with rifled barrels inevitably shot-out?
Hmmm, not sure what you mean by BB guns with rifled barrels.
Those guns that have rifled barrels are usually advertised as "BB/Pellet" guns, meaning that the BB is an ALTERNATIVE, but not the MAIN projectile.
Most of them that come to mind are entry level MSP's, so, they are not really high powered, or high accuracy.
The candy to use BB's is usually that the gun can be a "repeater" which escapes me in an MSP, but I guess it beats carrying your BB's in your pocket.
The ONLY exception of rifled BB barrels are those rifles that are used in the European shooting galleries that use 4.40 mm's LEAD BB's and have rifled barrels. Quite accurate at around 15 ft.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
