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[Closed] San Rafael R7 Getting TLC from @ekmeister

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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

Hopefully Ed won't mind me stating this thread. He has generously accepted the challenge of getting it in top condition and I look forward to his results. He just received the rifle yesterday and it is next inline.

I sent it in for his Ultimate tune and a few other goodies, can't wait...

There isn't much on the internet about the older R7's... At least that I can find (I enjoy reading about them)

Ed has confirmed that the breech seal is toast. That must be why the rifles accuracy disappeared when I was shooting it. Not the fault of the seller... I bought a vintage gun that had been in collections and was shooting it, my bad. I had a hankering something like this might happen. And, as it works out. I will be getting a like new gun.

Maybe Ed will chime in and post a few pics of the process. I will keep this thread updated as I get updated... stay tuned.


   
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(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 436
 

I am interested to hear what an Ultimate tune consists of. 


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

@jim-bentley

Ultimate Tune:

"Pre-tune inspection and testing, including chronograph testing
Complete Dis-assembly
De-grease factory parts
Thoroughly de-burr factory parts
Thoroughly cross-hatch the receiver tube
Check, de-burr, and adjust fit of new parts
Add and fit mainspring de-torquing parts to piston
Add new lubes, moly, tar, etc.
If barrel muzzle crown needs re-surfacing it's done at no additional cost
De-grease, re-lube, and adjust trigger unit. Stoning of trigger sears on RWS/Diana T01 and T05 units is included.
On applicable RWS/Diana barrel-cocking models, modify the barrel pivot bolt parts for additional adjustment, and modify the stock to allow access to the barrel pivot bolt and nut.
Install your stock screws with blue Lock-Tite
Install your scope mounts/rings and scope if they are provided.
Sight-in your rifle at 8 yards AND test for a pellet that's (reasonably) accurate in your rifle
The following additional work is done only to RWS/Diana air rifles:
Modify the T01 and T05 trigger blades to provide both 1st and 2nd stage adjustment."


   
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(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 436
 

Custom made guides fit to the spring, or a kit?


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

@jim-bentley  not sure, ed is doing the driving... i trust his choice.


   
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(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 436
 

Gotcha


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

The R7 is from what I can tell an early 1980's San Rafael pre-safety model. I purchased it from a collector out of his collection. It is in great cosmetic condition for being nearly 4 decades old.

it came to me missing its sights and i have found replacement for the rear. A front sight is more illusive.

I have an inexpensive Tech Force scope and some Simmons rings that I will send to Ed for sighting in. I was in the process of sighting it in when the breech seal let loose. Accuracy on this gun seems obtainable.

I was concerned that the "palm swell" stock might be an issue for a southpaw, that's not the case... the factory stock is very comfortable.


   

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(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 436
 

@teleamp

Brownells has what you need if it's a dove tail.


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

Thanks, I need to calculate for the right height once I get the gun back from Ed.


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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@jim-bentley

Hey Jim,

I'm sure glad you asked this excellent and public question about 'custom made guides versus a kit', because some people have an erroneous misconception about it.

That's no accident. At least one of the guys who did tuning out there led people to believe they were getting an inferior product if he didn't custom make your guides for a truly custom fit. That just plain sounds bad, doesn't it?  Is that really the case? Here' s the straight story:

In teleamp's case, I deliberately chose a Maccari spring that fits the guide as if it was made for it. Said a different way, if I was going to machine a guide on a lathe for this gun, it would be exactly like the one that's already there. Why throw out a perfectly good one to replace it with one just like it (and charge him for it), when it's not needed?

If you read the copy and paste description that he copied from my site, you'll see that it says I check the fit of all parts, and do cross-hatching where necessary. So, I'll be deburring the ends of the spring, making sure I like the way it sits on the guide, to adjust as needed, then cross-hatching the guide to hold lube before the guide is inserted in the spring. That's custom by any good journeyman's description.

There's more...

Sometimes I buy a kit, almost always from ARH/Maccari, and use that. James does his homework. He makes the springs himself, so he already knows the right size to make the guides, in house, before you ever get them.

However, and this may get me in Dutch a but, I always check the fit there, too. As most people who bother to check have already discovered, there's virtually nothing left to do. If time allows, and my OCB is active, I've been known to cross-hatch the rear guide and re-lube it before installation. But, it's not necessary. A thousand shooters out there have found things work just right, leaving the parts exactly how they receive them.

Now, back to that unnamed tuner out there who used to stir the pot a bit, lol, he had something else in mind when he said his parts were custom made, and kit parts weren't. I know because my memory is good, even though it's been at least 10.yesrs since I read his posts about it.

He said that, unlike some kits on the market, his guides were custom-fitted so the front and rear guides almost touched when the gun was cocked. Wow, right?

Keep in mind that I've been doing this for more than 20 years, and I can tell you that's just not necessary. If there's a 1/4" gap between the front and rear guides when the gun is cocked, you'll be getting a 0.0 % decrease in function, either in smoothness or accuracy, compared to guides that touch. About all it's good for is so you can brag to your friends that you have it, or to wistfully picture that un-needed 'precision' as you drift off to sleep at night. I'm totally serious.

Besides, if your math isn't perfect, and you try to have the guides amost touch, they may in fact bump into each other when you try and cock the gun, and the trigger won't set. Then you have to take everything apart and remove guide material. Where's the advantage?

Now comes the eating crow part of this.

If it sounds like I'm picking on you, I'm really sorry. I never meant to do that to you. By definition, I totally get it if it feels that way to you. Ugh.

But, try to understand it from my vantage point. I lost lots of work over the years because my guides weren't 'custom made' by the items in the so-called competitor's definition I just gave you, when I never should have lost it.

I'll tell the rest of the story, The guy in question was a good marketer, but he had some problems with some of his delivered hardware. Some of the parts and materials he chose weren't ones I would have used, if it was me. For instance, some of the guide material he chose wasn't as strong as it should have been, and some of the guides broke. That's true when most of the supposedly-inferior kits he spoke about are still out there working just fine to this very day.

None of this is theoretical, or mud-slinging. It's historical and just plain fact.

Again, any angst you're sensing on my part wasn't aimed at you. So, again, my apologies if it comes across that way. I just wanted a place to comment about the subject, and you mentioned it.

Oh, I almost forgot.

I don't have a lathe, but a machinist friend of mine does. If i need a set of custom guides for a spring that's not available in a good kit version, he makes them to my exact specifications, material selection and all. I always have him make them just a few thou too big, so I can do the final fitting here on my small fitting setup. Again, that's truly custom made in the right sense of the term. I always leave a little space between the ends of the front and rear guides, so the gun will cock the very first time I try it.


   
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timjohnston
(@timjohnston)
Nebraska
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 102
 

A little tip for you guys. If you find your springer with a leaking breech seal, you can sometimes pull them out and turn them over to get you by. Also if you have more that a few HW springers, they all use the same breech seal. They are cheap and having a few on hand is just good practice. I had to go to my spare parts drawer just last week to replace the breech seal in my R7.

P.S. the quick check for a leaking breech seal is to lay a piece of paper over the seal area and fire the gun(With a pellet in it).

tim


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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@timjohnston

That can work in some instances, and it's good to have such useful tricks in your tool belt, for emergencies. A couple wraps of some dental floss under the old seal can also work. It's not elegant, but it's effective under the right circumstances.

These aren't those, however.

The older breech seals from HW weren't at all resilient, like the newer ones. Once they flattened out, they were done. When I remove this one, no matter how carefully, it's going to crack, crumble, and disintegrate. Call it 'C, C, and D' (you know, that reminds me of my first marriage, lol).

So, he'll be getting a brand new seal.

Your tip about using a sheet of light tissue paper is a good one, too. In fact, it's what I used to test this rifle and diagnose the problem. Using a chronograph is the official test, but the flying paper test works just fine.

Before I even tried using the paper, this sick puppy gave itself away. When I shot the first pellet there was a loud 'POP!' that came from the direction of the closed breech. I instantly knew that wasn't right, and what it meant.

In fact, years ago, I had a break-barrel springer in here during our hot summer weather. When I fired it, I instantly got a distinct cooling sensation across my entire face. As pleasant as the relief was, I knew it was a feature the owner would have to learn to live without. A new breech seal took care of it.


   
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(@hkshooter)
Indiana
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 138
 
Posted by: @teleamp

Hopefully Ed won't mind me stating this thread. He has generously accepted the challenge of getting it in top condition and I look forward to his results. He just received the rifle yesterday and it is next inline.

I sent it in for his Ultimate tune and a few other goodies, can't wait...

There isn't much on the internet about the older R7's... At least that I can find (I enjoy reading about them)

Ed has confirmed that the breech seal is toast. That must be why the rifles accuracy disappeared when I was shooting it. Not the fault of the seller... I bought a vintage gun that had been in collections and was shooting it, my bad. I had a hankering something like this might happen. And, as it works out. I will be getting a like new gun.

Maybe Ed will chime in and post a few pics of the process. I will keep this thread updated as I get updated... stay tuned.

You will be thrilled with the rifle when you get it back. Ed has done two rifles for me, an R1 that was a venerable basket case internally, and an R9 that was very twangy/buzzy when fired. They came back solid performers, shadows of their former selves. I could not be happier. 


   
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timjohnston
(@timjohnston)
Nebraska
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 102
 

@ekmeister These of course are for in the field quick repairs.

tim


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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@timjohnston

I gotcha. That's how I read it.

Knowing how to do such emergency repairs can entirely save a shooting outing. Otherwise, you might have to simply gather up your gear and go home. That's twice as bad if you asked some friends to join you.


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 739
 
Posted by: @hkshooter
Posted by: @teleamp

Hopefully Ed won't mind me stating this thread. He has generously accepted the challenge of getting it in top condition and I look forward to his results. He just received the rifle yesterday and it is next inline.

I sent it in for his Ultimate tune and a few other goodies, can't wait...

There isn't much on the internet about the older R7's... At least that I can find (I enjoy reading about them)

Ed has confirmed that the breech seal is toast. That must be why the rifles accuracy disappeared when I was shooting it. Not the fault of the seller... I bought a vintage gun that had been in collections and was shooting it, my bad. I had a hankering something like this might happen. And, as it works out. I will be getting a like new gun.

Maybe Ed will chime in and post a few pics of the process. I will keep this thread updated as I get updated... stay tuned.

You will be thrilled with the rifle when you get it back. Ed has done two rifles for me, an R1 that was a venerable basket case internally, and an R9 that was very twangy/buzzy when fired. They came back solid performers, shadows of their former selves. I could not be happier. 

The R9 project was pretty standard fare, but the R1 was definitely harder. It had a noticeable, significant constriction halfway down the tube, and leaving it like that would have resulted in poor performance.

I've read of HW guns with tube tolerance issues for years, but, this was the first one ever in my 20+ years of doing the work that didn't yield to a well-designed, properly-sized parachute piston seal. 

Some say the only way to fix such issues is with the use of a Sunnen hone. Those machines do work, of course. But, I fixed the problem another way. The quality of the finished product didn't suffer a bit because of it. Part of the problem that some others have stems from the fact that some tuners don't use a parachute seal. I do, if at all possible.

Now, does this mean that I welcome tubes with tolerance issues? Ha!! Far from it!!

Fixing one like that takes a good deal of extra time and effort, and that means that I'm going to have to charge them something to fix it. Fair is fair, and my time is worth something. Still, I don't 'gig' anyone to take care of such problems. 

Not to worry, though. Like I said, this was the first one that ever caused me that problem, and I haven't seen one like it since. Most of the time, things are going to go well in that area. It probably won't even be an issue.


   
Faucetguy
(@faucetguy)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 217
 

I owned a Diana 34 that was tuned by Ed and it was spectacular.  Should have never sold it.  I have a new FWB Sport he tuned recently and it is superb.  It just gets better the more I shoot it.

 

 


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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@faucetguy

I think you must have bought that 34 from someone else, maybe? I don't remember tuning it for you.

OTOH, my memory isn't perfect. So, maybe I forgot. If so, oops!


   
Faucetguy
(@faucetguy)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 217
 

 

Beeman R7 | San Rafael

@ekmeister

 

yes I bought it from someone you tuned it for.  This is a pic.

"The nickle with the black pickle."

 

 

 

 


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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@faucetguy

Ha! Now I get it.

I've seen that model before--rarely. It reminds me of one I tuned for someone I'll just call 'Mr. BB'. Even when he had a good one, they seldom stayed put for long. He was always horse trading.

That nickel-plated model with a textured black stock was both beautiful and rare. If it shot well, yes, I think I would have held onto it if possible. That said, I also had to sell a couple of real keepers before, due to unyielding bad circumstances. Sometimes it just can't be helped.

At least you still have the pretty photo-lol.


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

Got an update from Ed, it is coming along. The gun had been shot a lot, it was definitely in need of a rebuild. Really looking forward to getting it back.

r7a

   

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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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@teleamp

In case someone wonders what the big deal is about a piston and a piston seal--so much so that I'd send you a photo--I'll explain.

The rifle in question has a vintage going back decades. The earliest ones had leather piston seals. They work ok, but they're a maintenance item in that they occasionally need lubricated. The synthetic seals don't, if properly lubricated when installed.

As long as I was going to have it apart anyway, it made sense to do the conversion, if applicable. It was going to require an adapter, though, to allow the installation of a synthetic seal. I could have made one or bought one, but that wasn't necessary. As seen in the photo, yours already had the current piston with synthetic seal installed.

The exclamation points are my way of saying Whoopie!!, or Hooray!!


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

Seeing as stock front sights for the older Beemans are rarer then hens teeth, I have decided to scope it and put the muzzle brake back on it. Maybe someday I can get an older air rifle with open sights.  

 

 

Should be getting some pics back from Ed soon, I will post them when I get them...


   
Faucetguy
(@faucetguy)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 217
 

Did you get your gun back yet?


   
KWK
(@kwk)
Pennsylvania
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 628
 

It's just a gun. I hope he's doing well. I so much appreciate all the contribution he has made here. I wish I could help him out


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
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Topic starter  

@kwk

Yes, it is just a gun.. And I am fortunate to have had it tuned by the Tunemeister. Despite the delays. It should be back in my posession this coming week per EK... Pics when it gets here.


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
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Topic starter  

@kwk

 

I think your words (what you said above) are the kind of help he needs. I have been where he is, it is not fun, I gave up building amplifiers for similar reasons.

 

My opinion, when someone turns a labor of love into a business, there can be serious consequences. The work will be stellar, but...


   
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(@jim_in_pgh)
Pennsylvania
Joined: 7 years ago
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I've"tuned" many springers over the years. My shooting buddies tried to encourage me to turn it into a business. NOTHING kills an enjoyable hobby like trying to make it a business. What you used to do for fun, you're now doing for somebody else's money, on a timetable, with expectations. Sucks ALL the fun out of it, right quick. I admire the guys who do it for money. Not for me.


   

Faucetguy
(@faucetguy)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 217
 

 

Replaced the piston seal in my Webley Longbow today.  Took me about 20 min.  Cocks like an R7, shoots a solid 12 ftlb.

 

Webley Longbow

   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

@faucetguy

God job, I use to rebuilf my TX200. Don't have the strength nor tools to do that any more. And defnitely don't have the skill and tooling to do what has been done during this tune. I envy those with the physicsl abilities to do what they want...


   
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 
Posted by: @jiminpgh

NOTHING kills an enjoyable hobby like trying to make it a business. What you used to do for fun, you're now doing for somebody else's money, on a timetable, with expectations. Sucks ALL the fun out of it, right quick.

You guys are killing my dream, one post at a time! ? 

Without commenting on this thread, my strategy has been to limit the range of work, and the number of sources.

Posted by: @teleamp

I gave up building amplifiers for similar reasons.

Your 'amplifiers' being plural, you are at least 2 units ahead of me! I only haz a stash of parts taking up space!

Posted by: @faucetguy

 Took me about 20 min.

Webley Longbow

I speak for almost everyone here when I say, I have AT LEAST one gun I took apart years ago, STILL haven't put back together!

There is at least ONE MORE which WAS put back together, but doesn't work! ? ? ? 

Looking at YOU $15 Sea Lion!!!

 

I'll take a pic of that ugly buggerer today, make this the official thread of "Shit that ain't gettin fix't anytime soon."


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

@faucetguy

 

Awaiting tracking # now... 


   
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(@teleamp)
Texas
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 373
Topic starter  

@gratewhitehuntr

 

A couple hundered, Lost my a$$...


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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Dear Moderators and Forum Members,

I hope this post will be permitted to remain here for as long as the "lost my" post, above, is allowed to do so. I do honestly think it should be moved to the BOI and/or the Dealer BOI at some point.

This tuning customer has a legitimate complaint, and it's not being ignored. I intend to do everything necessary to rectify the situation ASAP. It should be totally taken care of before Friday of the current work week, with the completely-tuned rifle on its way back to the owner, and with the customer having a tracking number for the shipment.

If permitted to do so, I plan to post a short and simple statement when that's done. Depending on the shipper, he may actually have the tuned product back, too.

The short version is that I made a substantial error in how fast I could finish the job, including at several re-forecast points along the way.  

I wasn't over-commited as far as having other work, as was the case in some instances many years ago. Instead, I was overtaken by an unrelated personal situation I couldn't have possibly foreseen. And, dealing with that matter has required a large part of my time and energy. 

I'm already volunteeringly made cost concessions on the project. But, the delays now have the customer wondering if he'll get his air rifle back at all. He will. But, if I felt like that about something of mine, I would be upset about it, too. 

It's well past time to deliver the goods, and I'm definitely on it. Thank you.


   
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