Is there a magnetic or magnetized material hard and (magnetically) strong enough to be used as a hammer and valve in a PCP? Or the magnets built-in or fixed on the hammer and valve material itself? Would it be able to work as non-touch system with the hammer opening the valve only using the opposing magnetic force? What about an electromagnetic design to do the same?
If nothing else, what about using the magnetic field (electro or natural) to neutralize hammer-bounce.
Theoretical advantages: almost eliminates wear, no valve breakage, limited sound, reduces hammer-bounce and saves air.
How about using magnets in the trigger? Use a magnet in the trigger that opposes another magnet....this provise the first stage of travel. Then use another magnet that attracts to the same trigger magnet (and snap together) in the second stage of travel.
Theoretical advantages: defined pull force in first stage, and a very fast trigger action and clean break in the second stage.
I think your R&D work would be very hard and time consuming, magnets themselves would not be that pricey and if you did get this all setup and working but are the magnets going to stay consistent over time in there power
and what amount of magnetic bleed would you have to other steel parts
and let me say I have no idea really, just assumptions on my part, I always look at how it will fail before how it will work it save me time on projects
but good luck
mike
...How about using magnets in the trigger? Use a magnet in the trigger that opposes another magnet....this provise the first stage of travel. Then use another magnet that attracts to the same trigger magnet (and snap together) in the second stage of travel.
Theoretical advantages: defined pull force in first stage, and a very fast trigger action and clean break in the second stage.
Several years back, there was a post describing using magnets to implement a 2-stage trigger in the QB series - arguably nothing like what you're suggesting (?), but mentioned anyway just for the sake of friendly confusion. ?
NOVair, I'm surprised no one has pointed you towards Mike Niksch and Thomas air rifles.
In case you don't know of Mike; his Thomas air rifles are legendary for their innovation, precision/ accuracy, meticulous workmanship and versatility.
Mike's initial entry into air rifle development used permanent magnets in the action with reversal of polarity for cocking. He sold a number of them. However as the br rules disallow any electric, electromagnetic or electrical field use in the action, Mike went back to "conventional" legal actions and his rifles have gone on to earn an enviable reputation nationally and internationally.
Perhaps if you made personal contact with Mike he may share with you but I cannot speak for him.
Kind regards, Harry inOZ.
A very interesting line of thinking, and thank you to Steve for muddying the water. Reliable!
I didn't ever expect to call springs "the safer option", and not so sure how it'd catch on.
Many of the Neo magnets I've handled eventually broke, either from contact with objects, or smashing themselves together.
I epoxy them to aluminum flashlight bodies, super handy and holds almost any position, but they get smashed no matter what.
It seems like a embedded magnet in a conventional sprung hammer might be usable as debounce.
Coating is another option, or pressing the metallic body into a polymer sleeve.
All very interesting, do you have drawings?
Disadvantage? Magnetizing random stuff in proximity.
Is there a way around that?
...Many of the Neo magnets I've handled eventually broke, either from contact with objects, or smashing themselves together.
Even when not hit hard enough to actually break, IIRC permanent magnets and mechanical shock don't live well together. Repeated shock weakens them.
They're also not exactly cheap either, when large and powerful.
Bottomline: There's a lot to recommend a plain old traditional steel spring.
Thank you all for the inputs and the information. Yrrah, I heard of the Thomas rifles, but did not know they were once using magnets. I wonder how he used them....I may contact him and ask...just for my curiosity.
Steve thanks for the link to the trigger for the QB. Apparently, that was in 2009 and must not have caught up....never heard of it before. But I think that gentleman was onto something. Albeit as noted here also, the magnets are very brittle and incorporating them in a moving action or mechanism must be done by someone who knows what they are doing.
However, I think that neo-magnets do have a future. MagnetoSpeed uses them in their chronos. I am working on something that builds on that concept...
and what amount of magnetic bleed would you have to other steel parts?
My question exactly.
That microwave transformer I cut open to de-gauss tooling does NOT look user friendly, or safe LOL.
A carpenter working at theme park renovation asked me for a "HUGE rare earth magnet" to find hidden fasteners in decorations.
1.5" Neo cube? LOL
First one was plastered all over every tool in his bag within a week. Teeny bits.
#2 went inside a HDPE OTC medicine bottle, the reduction in proximity to the drawn object (square inside cylinder) and low friction container made it much easier to handle.
#3 was a 2.5" bar, epoxied inside thinwall PVC, slip fit caps, then dropped in the medicine bottle.
That one survived, but he eventually gave it away out of aggravation at everything around it being magnetized, re-magnetized, adnauseum.
I'm no kind of magnetism expert, these are my experiences.
Awesome project!
Magnets are made by sintering a mixture of dust powders into the final material form (to include the right proportion of rare earths, nickel, iron and other good stuff).
As such it is basically a CERAMIC. Ceramics, unless engineered for the purpose, have very poor resistance to shock, the exception being those ceramics that are made reaching temperatures that actually create alloys (like Silicon Carbide and Tungsten Carbide tool bits) But then, they need extensive grinding to conform to final shape and function.
It COULD be possible to make a steel part, through a MIM process with the right alloy to make it a strong magnet, but the inclusion of the elements that make "super-strong magnets" will most probably weaken the material.
Probably the best way to make this a useful concept is by using short pulsed electro-magnets. Drive a VERY high current for an extremely short time around a steel-nickel-RE core and you get a magnet that can be VERY strong for a very short while. Controlling the direction of the current flow you can then have attraction or repulsion, and/or both acting upon a system, if you make the system in such a way that every duty cycle has a positive and an negative phase, then the resulting, residual magnetism will be limited to the hysteresis of the material chosen, and there will be little "spilled magnetization" present.
The limit here will be the size of the capacitors and the SCR's/Triacs driving the powertrain.
As an example: we have looked at Coil guns that can shoot BB's (steel or sintered) at useful BB MV's (400 fps) , but when you try to get to pellet-level MV's (800 fps) the electronic components (capacitors, and batteries mainly) are not really there. Trying for alternative projectiles has proven a little bit difficult because of the cost of the projectiles themselves and the need for them to be magnetically reactive.
¿How far are we from getting this concept into the reality of sport shooting? I would say about 5 to 10 years, depending on the rate of evolution of the critical components.
I would forecast that the linear accelerator concept (electromagnetic launchers/rail guns) will get to practical levels before the coil guns do. But that is just my personal perception of where science is right now and how it will evolve in the near future (2-3 years).
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
@novair I made a PCP Pistol using magnetic repulsion in the valve. Check it out
Very interesting, watched your video. So these magnets only lose 5% in 100 years, so practically retain their setup. Were you able to measure any improvements in air consumption? The magnets should help debounce the valve. The repulsion strength could be dialed in via a threaded housing for the opposing magnet, which should give some limited adjustment range.
Ok, interesting, yes, but you are replacing a $0.05 spring with a $1.00 set of magnets.
AND, you need to remember that in a poppet valve, 90% of the return force is applied by the pressure inside the cylinder.
I have built spring-less valves that work by using the flow speed inside the valve to close the valve, thereby self-regulating themselves.
So, the valve is not the right place to research magnetic repulsion.
Where you should do some work is in replacing the hammer spring.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I've filed for a provisional Patten on this concept. After drafting the idea and completing a search, it's clear no one has completed this idea. My draft clearly explains the benefits of using magnets over springs. There is still a lot of data to process but so far it is turning out to be efficient. Keep an eye on my channel for an update. I'm running comparison over a machine I created to determine the difference. So far the magnets are out performing the springs. Specifically in retention.
GREAT!
What is the valve's capability of self-regulation?
In other words: How do MV's change as the air tank pressure changes? Do they stay the same, or not?
That is the crux of the matter.
Thanks for the update, good luck on the patent, and keep us posted.
HM
So far it's remained the same. The real answer I have is how to house the magnets. No bleed off, no impacts, less mitigating factors and it's adjustable.
and as far as regulation, so to speak ...That's a long ongoing test. So far it's just as capable, if not, slightly better. The machining process is key. Proper housing keeps the poles locked in phase.
