I've recently purchased a FWB 300S with factory sights, having never used this type sights I'm at somewhat of a loss on how I should be using them. Having shot bows for years until my shoulder surgery I understand the principal. What I don't know is how big the light ring around the OD of the front sight should be and how to select the correct size insert for the front sight.
Should it just be a small ring of light around the target and front sight OD? Or is it personal preference? How do I correct or at least have a consistent cant? I have a set of clear front inserts from Champions choice. Do I select the size based on distance and target size? Are there any good reading resources on this subject?
I'm just a plinker and the only competition that I'll be shooting is just some informal 10 and 25 yard fun shoots.
Thanks, Justin
Justin depending on the condition of your eyes -front aperture should leave a small ring of light around the target bull at ten meters. Same for 25, but all depends on personal taste. Older eyes or those comprised by irregularities or needing optical enhancement will dictate what you need. No one size firs all.
If you are not interested in formal competition, then your best bet is get one of these:
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/sight-accessories/rifle-aos-microsight-prod44975.aspx
The differential plates (sort of a fresnel version of a Hawk's or Eagle's eye) will allow you to focus clearly on the front sight AND the target.
Use an Iris on the rear aperture and, if you use corrective lenses for DISTANCE viewing, then get a Varga frame made to your prescription, when head is set in a shooting position, corrective lens should be perpendicular to the sights' optical axis which will result in a strangely cocked lens in relation to your face, but that is the way it should be. Take a stock (without action) to the optician, so that he/she can measure the real distance between eye and lens in the shooting position. SINGLE correction, no place for bifocals here (I wear them, at 62, so I know).
I have used this arrangement in a number of rifles and I can get as much precision shooting with peeps as with a 4X scope, REGARDLESS of the target size OR shape (normally, you tailor your front sight aperture size to the target size, light and eyesight combination), so peeps can be highly effective, plus you can shoot with both eyes open if the other eye is properly corrected for distance viewing:
The outside ring is 1", so you can see that the sights are highly effective, even when there is not "big, black, bull" to aim at
HTH, good luck, welcome to the wonderful world of fine peep sights and keep us posted.
HM
@hector-j-medina-g You've really got a lot of knowledge on those sights. I have recently acquired a Walther LG 55 Tyrolean and a FWB 300s Tyrolean and I have the same problems with both rifles. 1) the rear sights are too far forward and need to be set so they are closer to my eye. I need to extend them somehow, and 2) I don't care for the front insert in either rifle.
I saw the adapters you have and wonder if there are "extenders" available for the rear sights on these two rifles. Also, I need to get a variety of inserts for the front sights. Do you know of anyone who sells these inserts that will fit these rifles? Thanks in advance for your help
There are other sources, but I've gotten my German-to-US adapters (one manufactured by Gehmann in Germany) from Champion's Choice in Nashville.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=PH999
For what it's worth, the eyepieces on all German sights use a 9.5 mm X 1.0 mm thread. US sights are typically an 11/32 X 40 thread.
Re: question above about metal inserts for FWB front sights, a friend recently pointed out to me that old Diana inserts are identical to the OEM FWB ones! Normally the metal inserts are proprietary to each brand, but this is a happy exception that will widen your search field.
The photo shows two FWB and one vintage Diana front sight (the one on the right) - all fitted with Diana inserts.
Justin, as already mentioned there's no substitute for experimentation! The basic fact behind aperture sights, is that the construction of our eye is extremely good at aligning concentric circles. Once you've used "peeps" a bit, I think you'll find them fun, intuitive, and accurate; it's no mistake they are almost the universal choice for target shooting and military rifles.
A useful accessory for the front sight is this selection of clear acrylic front-sight inserts. They will work in any sight with an 18 mm thread size, including your 300S (note that many older guns, like the HW 55, have an incompatible smaller 17 mm thread). These give a great view of the target, and are a cheap way to play with different front ring sizes.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=CCA2
For what it's worth, for formal 10-meter target work, most shooters like a relatively large front aperture, something in the range of 3.4 to 4.0 mm, give or take. It can make you a little crazy to have TOO small a gap between the target bull and front sight ring, but again individual tastes vary.
A rear aperture opening of about 1.0 mm uses the "surface tension" of air to form a sort of clarifying lens that helps you see the front sight and target (just put the disk close to your eye and look around the room, you will be amazed by the effect). It's physically impossible to focus on the rear sight of course, so you will be centering the front sight in a very "fuzzy" hole...but your eye will do this with astonishing precision.
For this reason the OEM eye disks supplied with most target rifles will have an opening around 0.8 to 1.2 mm, which works great for young eyeballs on a well-lit range, LOL. But for all-round shooting in varying lighting and distances, especially for those of us with more mileage, it's often useful to have a bigger opening, and to be able to vary the opening size during a shooting session.
So, IMHO, the one indispensable accessory is a good-quality adjustable-aperture iris, such as made by Gehmann or Centra. These usually have an adjustment range starting at 0.8 mm, up to 2.0 or 3.0 mm. Pull up a YouTube of a 10-meter match and you will see one of these on every gun. They are available with an INCREDIBLE variety of add-on bits: magnifying lenses, optical correction modules, color filters, polarizers, etc. But you seldom see those at a match - the basic iris is the heart of the matter (and not too expensive).
Hector's photos show a Merit iris made for US sights, and here's a basic Gehmann iris (not shilling for Champion's Choice BTW, there are many other good sources). Remember that all German rear sights use the same eyepiece thread (9.5 x 1.0 mm), so you only need one of these.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=510
If you get one of the AOS units that Hector recommended, note that those are designed for a specific fixed distance between the front and rear sights, so they may not be as easy to move between guns (I believe they are made for two different distances though). Also, the AOS has the German thread, so you don't need an adapter to use it in your FWB sight.
Then intended plan for "match apature" sights is this:
Circle (the rear apature)...to a circle (the front sight) to a circle (the bullseye).
We are really good a centering circles with a bare-eyball that are "almost" a fit.....just a little light between the 3 circles.
Are aiming at the outside circle of the bullseye...pellets landing in the middle of that circle.
Use a post type front might help with non-round targets..are generally designed to be the post-width that matched the bullseye black....so you are supose to adjust/hold them as 6 o-clock. It's more like a visual balance of a ball on a golf tee.
Use a round post, are usually designed to just cover the black bullseye paper target....sillusing the circle in a circle...but now OVER the target circle rather than around it (although you can use the 6 o-clock hold...which would be like balancing two pool balls on top of each other).
Are as good at making groups as a scope when the range is short (and you don't have to hold off for elevation/wind)...because the holes/p[ost/ballfronts are calibrated tothe bullseye.
Problems:
The only light we get into our eye is related to the size of the aperture hole. Hard to make an error that's more than 1/4th the aperture hole, so target apertures tend to be really tiny (and dim).
That's pretty dim....match sights suck in dim lighting.
So we try a post and a bigger "ghost ring" apature....more a "receiver"or "peep" sight than "match apature"sight.
Still suck at elevation hold over....if we hold over,we cover up the center of the target with the post.
With a big -ax hole in the rear,get more light to your eye,but more eyeball-centering error...consider that like a tiny bit of parallax unless you get your eye dead center each time.
(not to be gotten wrong here....it's still better than open-iron sights. If nothing else,looking though a small hole increases your eye's depth of fied....everything is pretty much in focus(like an old school camers f-stop adjustment).
"Peeps" can do pretty well for hunting.....at least for the ranges where you don't have to hold over or hold off....could take the time to dial in the right "clicks",but most critters won't give you that time.
I like the challenge of match sights,and keep 2 set upthat way. They suck in dim light...they suck at low constrast/odd shaped targets....they suck at sorting out the fur from the tree bark...but they are still fun.
in reality the inserts used in FWB and Diana's still this day are considered Old Walther, so i'm guess they are Walther inserts used in FWB and Diana's
now the problem with the eye position and a peep or diopter sight can be solved with a home made setup or from a Gehmann 556, they come in different length and will look like it belongs
Gehmann Rear Sight Anti-Glare Tube (creedmoorsports.com)
and you can see they come in different lengths and i would highly recommend getting and eye cup
also if you use the extension you may need an adapter for a Williams but just but the correct rear sight for the 300
a Gehmann 510 iris is also purchase
Sight Tool & Accessories | Champion's Choice (champchoice.com)
do it right once and be done with it
in reality the inserts used in FWB and Diana's still this day are considered Old Walther, so i'm guess they are Walther inserts used in FWB and Diana's
Thanks Michael - you have schooled me once again! Believe it or not, I own only one original Walther metal insert, and had never tried it in other sights. But "upon further review," it does indeed fit fine in my FWB and Diana sights.
Mike that will never happen, you are the teacher, i'm just a pollywog but i have done a deep dive it into Diopter sights and inserts
i have a dozen diopters and many extra front sights and inserts coming out of my ears
but that is just me a hoarding old man
have a Happy Holiday Mike and to all
mike
@marflow Thanks Mike! Merry Christmas to you too!
Maybe it really is an age-related thing, LOL - I too have certain mental deficiencies re: hoarding airgun sights. This is about a third of my diopter collection (most of the rest are attached to rifles of course!)
Front to back, the rows are: Miscellaneous - Diana - Weihrauch - Walther.
@hector-j-medina-g You've really got a lot of knowledge on those sights. I have recently acquired a Walther LG 55 Tyrolean and a FWB 300s Tyrolean and I have the same problems with both rifles. 1) the rear sights are too far forward and need to be set so they are closer to my eye. I need to extend them somehow, and 2) I don't care for the front insert in either rifle.
I saw the adapters you have and wonder if there are "extenders" available for the rear sights on these two rifles. Also, I need to get a variety of inserts for the front sights. Do you know of anyone who sells these inserts that will fit these rifles? Thanks in advance for your help
Landmass;
I am quarantined at my holiday's destination (long story of an irrational/medieval state government that is not the subject of polite conversation, LOL!), so, I have the time to answer, though you do not really provide enough information for a complete answer.
The ORIGINAL sights for these guns (as you can see from MDriskill's collection) had really long "feet". So the natural position could be adapted to almost any shooting position/anatomy, remember the Europeans are taught to shoot with their head more "erect" than us in the USA.
So, if you are using the ORIGINAL rear sights and you are still having problems, then you have either not mounted them enough to the rear, or have some special needs that will need addressing specifically. USUALLY, the distance between eye and rear sight can be up to 2" - 3", and they still fulfill their role. SOME shooters use long hooded hats with lateral blinders to increase the contrast between light and shadows.
NRA still allows them:
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=CC399BB
Though ISSF does not anymore.
Now, if you are using an American style peep/receiver sight (Beeman, Williams, Lyman, etc) then there is the probability that you WILL need some "extenders" to get the proper eye relief .
Those can usually be built from a lightweight tube with two ends that provide the proper threads (depending on what you want to attach at either end. The thing about these "extenders" is that they are an optical piece of equipment in themselves and they need some very peculiar machining and inside coatings to make sure that they are absolutely "dead" from the light-transmission POV.
AaMoF, I am currently in a project of a 460 Mag specifically setup for "iron sights", using a Williams rear, a Gehman adapter, a Gehman Iris (the Meritt is not available anymore), and the AOS differential plate in the middle. I am sure we will need to put in some special parts in there because we need to accommodate not only the needs of the user, but also the needs of the optics.
The optical train in its Iteration 1.0 is thus:
As for the front sights, this is an illustrative list of the inserts that are STILL part of the DIANA lineup:
As you can see there are more than 33 inserts to choose from. It all depends on what you are going to use for a target.
In GENERAL, it seems that the DIANA inserts fit other brands of "korn tunnel" but not the other way around, and the Walther dovetail is definintely not the same as the DIANA one.
As a final note, more than 40 years ago, the D75 came out with an ADJUSTABLE front ring sight that floated in a pair of transparent rings. WAY before anyone else had something like it. 😉
Anyway, I hope you will find this info useful. If you are interested in further conversations, drop me a PM through my contact page:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/contact-us.html
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
@hector-j-medina-g I'm still reading and absorbing info from your response - but I wanted to tell you right away that the Merit company s BACK IN BUSINESS. I bought one from him only a couple of weeks ago. I bought a #3 Master lens disc with the lightshield(as shown in the pic) for $90. His contact information is as follows:
Mr. Edward Grant, phone: 518-763-3011, email: grantedward@msm.com
So, am I to understand that you ARE using a Beeman rear peep?
If so, then what I am doing for the 460 in question is also valid for your case.
About Meritt, that is a REALLY GOOD piece of news. I went to their website prior to launching the 460 project and there was no way of buying one.
I bought from Mr. Grant almost 2 dozen units some years ago when almost everyone opted for the Peep with Iris custom sights for the 430 Stutzen project, and everyone agreed that it was one of the best pieces of equipment they never thought existed, LOL!
One further note:
For those that do not see well with little light, you should try using the Williams "Twilight" apertures, there are several sizes, but it is the bright brass ring around the rear peep what makes a HUGE difference that needs to be seen to be believed.
Anyway, precision iron sights are a science in themselves, and it is a fun and enjoyable trip of discovery.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
This is only a philosophical musing on ribbonstone's post above, but he makes a great point - sporting and match aperture sights are conceptually somewhat different animals.
A sporting "peep" is intended to give a good view of both the target and the area around it, so that when hunting you can quickly acquire the target in varying light conditions, and follow it if it's moving. They are typically physically small and rugged; use an eye disk with a relatively large opening, and relatively small outside diameter; and are mounted several inches from the eye.
Hector's classic Williams sights are a great example, but here's another personal favorite: a Parker-Hale model PH 16M sight, mounted on a Webley Mk 3 rifle. Note how the mechanism is mounted off to the side, the way both adjustment scales are visible from behind the sight, and the tiny "ghost ring" eyepiece.
A match sight is intended to help you very closely zero a tiny target at a fixed range, while blocking out adjacent distractions. They are typically larger (to accommodate precise internal adjustment mechanisms); use an eye disk with a relatively small opening (to take advantage of the "air lens" effect as mentioned above), and relatively large exterior diameter; and are mounted closer to the eye.
An example: an classic vintage Anschutz "Universal" sight, mounted on a Weihrauch HW 55. This one has an anti-glare tube on the front, and an old Gehmann iris eyepiece.
Now...all that being said, none of this is cast in stone! You can do very precise shooting with a sport sight - and take your match sight afield if you want! As Hector's set-ups show, combining a sport sight with an adjustable iris can give you the best of both worlds.
@hector-j-medina-g The Merit sight in the pic I posted is mounted on an older R7. The rear sights on the Walther LG 55 and FWB 300s are, I believe, original sights that came with those rifles. I put the adjustable Centra on the Walther to see if it would give a better front sight focus - it did not as it goes too dark before the front sight is in perfect focus. I'm hoping the Merit will work better once I get the prescription lens installed in it. All the adjustable peeps I've tried go dark before the front sight is in focus - and I want to get closer to a perfect sight picture than I am right now. I've only recently gotten into intermediate powered springers(particularly Weihrauchs) and don't want to use scopes on them. I want to keep them lightweight by going with peeps and it's been a learning experience for me. See pics below
@mdriskill Great information and well explained. I need to know this kind of stuff as a newbe to peep sights. Beautiful guns and sights and very good photography. Thanks for posting this.
Thanks for the kind words - and we'd love to see more of that lovely Walther and FWB!
I guess we are about to beat this thread to death, but please feel free to PM me if I can help with anything else!
This pic was done tongue-in-cheek, but illustrates the lengths you can go to: 1) HW 35, 2) old Williams "ARH 624" sight made for HW 13mm scope rails, 3) US-to-German adapter, 4) AOS unit, 5) German-to-Parker Hale adapter, 6) Parker Hale "Iris" eyepiece, 7) steel Parker Hale PH 62 eye shade.
Silly, but it actually worked, LOL! Gave a nice clear sight picture, though you obviously wouldn't want to go crashing through the woods with this fragile assortment hanging off your rifle...
@ landmass.- What the prescription lens you are getting, + the very closed Centra will do is what the AOS microsight does.
In essence you are creating an "open scope" between the stops, iris and lens. The analogy would be a camera vs a pin-hole camera (Camera oscura). With enough light the pinhole CAN get good pictures, but not with low light levels.
If you still have problems after all this, then I would recommend you consider a red-dot or a holographic sight, those can be a boon for shooters that have problems with low light levels. And unless you want to compete formally, nobody cares if someone uses non-regulation sights.
@ MDriskill.- Whoever goes "crashing through the woods" should not be there. 😉 . . . . Just saying . . . LOL!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
GOSH!!! Has this been an informative thread.
Such a trove of information ... I’ve had to bookmark the link for further reading.
This is something I’ve been needing to take a serious look-at for over a decade.
Hate-it when something very interesting pops-up and catches my attention ... just as I’m going to bed.
Lost an hours worth of sleep.
@hector-j-medina-g Sorry for my late response. My eye doctor appointment is tomorrow, so I don't know what prescription lens I'm getting yet. I did talk to the lens grinder and he told me the .311" lens I need for the Merit peep is too small for him to grind, but they may be able to order one. I looked up the AOS microsight and they are no longer available. I wish I could get one because it seemed like a great idea. I wonder why they don't make them anymore??? As far as red dots....I've never liked them or had any luck with them - just not accurate enough. I don't know anything about the holographic sight, maybe you could send me a picture of what you're talking about with the holographic sight. I'll look them up....
Yes. they are no longer available.
It seems that very few shooters understood the optical requirements of the system. Especially the specific needs for a focal position of all things involved.
Gehman, Centra, and others make the lenses and the iris, a combination of these two will give you ALMOST the same result.
It is true that the challenge was to make something that was suitable directly for the American rear sights, and that was not possible way back then.
Perhaps nowadays, Edmund Optics COULD do the trick, but at a price that would be unreasonable to most shooters.
So, it, will, by necessity, stay in the realm of the legend of how "Old times were better" , LOL!
As to the Iris, Meritt is back in business I am told call the number in the website and see if you have any luck.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
@hector-j-medina-g
I just found this!
http://www.targets.ca/products/sight-accessories/gehmann-560-superfilter-aos-microsight-tm
Is it the same thing as the Sinclair AOS unit????
And yes, Merit is back in business, and I obtained one of his units with the chamber for the corrective lens. That's why I'm going to the eye doctor tomorrow.
@hector-j-medina-g
I just found this!
http://www.targets.ca/products/sight-accessories/gehmann-560-superfilter-aos-microsight-tm
Is it the same thing as the Sinclair AOS unit????
And yes, Merit is back in business, and I obtained one of his units with the chamber for the corrective lens. That's why I'm going to the eye doctor tomorrow.
LM.- Gehman used to have two different focal distance units, the 560 and the 561, the 561 was basically for long match guns with sight extensions, the 560 was for shorter airguns and service guns. The 560 came with an Iris (I THINK).
They are expensive in comparison to what the Sinclair unit was. Sinclair was the "target" company offshoot of Brownell's. Nowadays, they have merged more closely. Sinclair sold off their inventory of AOS microsights to EAB Co. some years ago.
Overpricing (for US standards), and lack of information killed the Sinclair product. Gehman's are even MORE expensive, but properly used, they are just as effective.
You can find them in the UK shops as well as in German shops, but at $170 they are hardly "Mainstream" accessories.
I THINK I found a source at a reasonable price, I've purchased a few, IF they get here (IF, LOL!) I'll keep everyone posted here.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
@hector-j-medina-g
https://www.epeenek.top/shopping_cart.htm
has them for 49 british pounds....Champion's Choice said they are discontinued. I'm going to order one from epeenek and see what happens. I wonder why all these types of sights are no longer being made? I've heard they work - so why aren't they available?
My order from epeenek just went through for $67. It appears to be a Chinese company, so we'll see what happens....
@hector-j-medina-g
https://www.epeenek.top/shopping_cart.htm
has them for 49 british pounds....Champion's Choice said they are discontinued. I'm going to order one from epeenek and see what happens. I wonder why all these types of sights are no longer being made? I've heard they work - so why aren't they available?
My order from epeenek just went through for $67. It appears to be a Chinese company, so we'll see what happens....
That's exactly who I ordered from. Since I am a member of trade, I got a discount.
I'ld rather test an unknown supplier first with my own money, if it pans out, I can recommend to the friends here, if not, I only chuck it to the "cost of doing business" .
You just "jumped the gun" 😉
Let's see if this company delivers. If it does, we can tell the friends here.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Received a TOTALLY unrelated package (an Islamic ring, ROFL!)
I simply went through PayPal and they stopped the payment to the company.
Since then I have learned that they were a bot-powered scam.
I didn't lose any money, but that is why I never came back and posted a confirmation.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
@hector-j-medina-g You've really got a lot of knowledge on those sights. I have recently acquired a Walther LG 55 Tyrolean and a FWB 300s Tyrolean and I have the same problems with both rifles. 1) the rear sights are too far forward and need to be set so they are closer to my eye. I need to extend them somehow, and 2) I don't care for the front insert in either rifle.
I saw the adapters you have and wonder if there are "extenders" available for the rear sights on these two rifles. Also, I need to get a variety of inserts for the front sights. Do you know of anyone who sells these inserts that will fit these rifles? Thanks in advance for your help
I like the rear sight close to my eye, gives a longer sight radius. Saying that I have a set of aperture sights set up on an old Swedish Mauser, the rear one simply replaces the factory/military rear leaf sight. Now to do this you have to have a much larger hole in that rear aperture, but it still works very well, better than the original sight.
The factory sights on my FWB300 are as far back as possible, and I have a set of old Anschutz match sights on a HW 77 mounted far back also I like a plastic disk in the front sight with a small hole that is partially reamed to an angle, so there is no crossbar or post to obscure the target. I have a size appropriate for a standard 10 meter rifle target. I can also plink at much longer distances just placing my target inside that front circle.
