No, due to the weight involved, especially getting it up to FT power. Maybe opposing rams would make it lighter
David Enoch
Hector,
My experience with Giss power plants involves a couple of Diana pistols (5G, 6M, 10M) and a 75/T01 match rifle. All were EXCELLENT and sadly I only have the super 6M left. I would love to have a Giss rifle again (accuracy, self-sufficiency, quality) but it would necessarily be suitable for FT with at least 12 Ft lbs. $800 might be a stretch but doable for the right gun. Trigger on par with T06 or equal. Keep me posted.
Regards,
Craig
can you produce a Giss system rifle for anything other than low power ???? I thing that is why the 300 out sold the 75's at least here in the states
and is this a pistol or rifle or both ?????
and would you use the same type of trigger as on a model 10 and 75, meaning GREAT
and could you do this in a package at 8 pounds or under, the 75's were in the 10 lb range and the model 10 pistol was heavier then the FWB 65
but as a system, the Giss method was as good as it gets, in the spring gun category
so yes but more info is needed
oh I own to many Giss pistols and rifles, I know them well
Thanks already.
You have pointed out how little is known, or understood, about the Giss system.
Perhaps a LITTLE history is in order here:
Kurt Giss first filed for patent of his dual piston system in 1956. The original system contemplated opposing pistons running INTO each other. And the implementation was with a bolt action located above the dual pistons using a vertical transfer port. ¿Sounds familiar? LOL!
Anyway, when the first prototypes were built, problem was that it had TOO MUCH power. Too much for the intended purpose (Olympic Style Match shooting). So, the quick, easy and dirty solution was to have only ONE piston compress air, the other just being along for the ride and for inertia cancelling purposes (the buffer piston).
Halve the swept volume and you halve the power.
This is what we all know. Whether it is called Winchester 333. DIANA 60, 65, 66, 75, 5, 6, 6A, etc. it is essentially the same mechanism.
Problems of the time: Materials. The seals material which promised/was supposed to last forever, disintegrated. Since the seals were supposed to last forever, no provision was even attempted at making the guns easy to service. Result? you know it better than I.
Yes, the 300's outsold the 75's, but they never truly outshot them. And, even then, the 380's outshot all guns in the last spring-piston Olympic worthy gun ever.
In the 60's the gun was way ahead of its time, but ¿today? THAT is the question.
The Action itself is not that heavy, the design of the stock, and extra material added here and there to maintain the Match Gun balance made it extra heavy precisely because it was designed as a Match Gun. Little could Herr Giss have imagined the level at which non-Olympic sport shooting has developed in the last 10 years.
Modern materials, modern high strength alloys (both aluminum and steel), CNC manufacturing, MIM parts, tried and true piston and breech seals material, better springs with steels that were not even dreamed of in 1956. Maybe even a synthetic stock to lop off a lb or two for those that want it . . .
Apologies for posing a TOO OPEN question.
Hopefully I have now added some useful information for you to pronounce yourselves.
Keep well, shoot straight and again, thanks for your time!
HM
As for 10 meter airguns: I believe I would rather just go the single stroke pneumatic route-used market of course. The FWB 603 jr. would be my first want because of the weight reduction.
As for a higher powered (mid or high) airgun: I would definitely have to consider it. I'd still rather own an ssp that could do 12fpe. I don't believe those ever existed though.
Bo
I would love to have such a springer(that does not destroy scopes)! My requirements would be sub-12 FPE, fully adjustable stock with vertical grip(cheekpiece, buttppad and rail under the forearm) and an 8-ounce trigger. I would not mind paying more than $800 for such an air rifle. I assume that it would be a sidelever(as to avoid having the cocking lever hanging off the barrel and adding to POI changes).
Back in the 90's, my first Field Target rifle was a giss system called Park 93. I loved it. Roz Sumpter also shot one and several other guys has success with them. They were very hard to work on. They used a chain to separate pistons when cocking. It was nicknamed "the poor man's Whiscombe". I also owned a Whiscombe once and felt they were both the best of the best. I would be very interested in a giss piston kit for Field Target.
so Hector if they can make a high powered Giss system rifle or pistol and if that gun could be tuned for different power level by changing or purchasing the gun with different spring rates wanted, have a close to match trigger be in the 7 to 8 pound in rifle weight, have weaver scope mounting system, dovetails have to go bye bye and have a barrel as good as and LW barrel
it should have been built years ago and with the Giss system easy to repair
the only thing making them hard to work on is the trigger system were in the way, the 6's aren't hard but you have to have the right tools and a bunch of parts that might be needed
if all of that can be done with the price of 750.00 to 850.00 bucks build it but is it to late, has PCP taken over air gunning, will anyone care
the sale numbers of the new FWB Sport rifle might answer that question, a gun for the masses or the gun for the few
YES! Definately!
As you know, I have one of your D54's, but also an FWB 300. I have had an RWS 75U in the past and loved it. Obviously, it was a 10m gun, but being able to get one that shoots 12 fpe or better would be perfect.......with a FT adjustable stock......or chassis stock.
Please keep us posted on breaking developments.
Mark
Thanks, my friends!
As I said, at present it is only an idea we're toying with, we will have a bunch of meetings at IWA, and that will define if it gets launched as a project for 2020-2021, or not.
Just to answer some comments and to provide further info:
The Giss system was patented in 1956, Whiscombe basically took the principle in the 90's and re-worked it to his several-strokes-ratchet mechanism. His choice of materials was good for the UK with stable ambient temperatures, but is a nightmare for everyone else.
The way to manage the power would not be the spring rate nor the stroke, but the bore diameter. There are HUGE advantages to this, specially from the manufacturing side.
Without the recoil, the dovetail COULD stay, though I do understand that the variety of mounts (and the advantages in cost) for Picatinny mounts is great. Note that we are thinking Picatinny, NOT Weaver.
A SSP that yields 12 ft-lbs would need a complicated live piston (like the GAMO 66, or the Quigley), not impossible, but not the best idea since the cocking effort would be considerable (you will find out when you get a Walther LGR, a Diana 100, a FWB 600, 601, or 603). There are no good efficiencies in the SSP platform, whereas in the spring-piston platform there are very good efficiencies to be had with smart design.
FWB made the basic mistake of not asking the customers what they wanted. They offered a "refried" version of a classic at the power level of the classic and, funny enough, with the same problems of the classic!
Yes, the Chevrolet Corvair was an interesting and technically advanced car in its day, but it went away and re-surrecting it is not right.
What we are talking here is NOT a re-creation of the old classics, it is taking what was, and still is, cutting edge technology and design and marrying it to cutting edge manufacturing, materials, and support.
It may be a long road, But I do think this to be the way to the future of the spring-piston airgun.
JMHO
Thanks again for participating and enlightening us!
HM
No.
I'd much rather just have a gun that was 100% built right.
Spring powered, tight guides, oring piston seal, a truly round compression tube and lubed with non-detonating grease like Krytox. And have the powerplant balanced for a change. And how about some steel screw cups in the stock, and actually put a high enough comb to use a scope right out of the box?
I'd pay $800 for that.
I can picture this gun coming out to be much heavier than anything else around, and that would be a big turnoff to most folks. Is the FT spring piston market really big enough to build a gun to cater to them here in the USA? I don't forsee the hunting and plinking crowd being heavily drawn to it. But, it's yet to be built so who knows?
Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
No, pcp’s or as mentioned, ssp’s, can be as or more accurate. And filling pcp’s is getting cheaper and easier by the day. Other than nostalgia or convenience, i.e., self-contained, there’s no reason for an opposing piston system. There’s a reason competitive shooters no longer use springers, either fwb 300 or Diana giss systems.
Again, thanks for your continued interest!
This is, I repeat, just an idea we're toying with. It may or may not happen. But it is encouraging that just in the US and just in one forum there were in excess of 1,300 shows of interest and more than 20 positive responses. It points to something that could "walk" as a project.
To address some of the latest issues and comments:
Weight and cost.- modern Carbon Fiber manufacturing methods have made it less expensive and more versatile, so that would be an interesting solution to weight and cost.
Specialized market.- Not really. The first try would be a "starter" model with a basic, but very utilitarian, adjustable, and useful stock. Aftermarket stocks would address the Match, FT, BR and luxury segments. Perhaps later, there could be straight OoB competition airguns in different configurations, but the start is the start. You cannot go the 1,000 mile journey without the first step.
Accuracy of comparable powerplants.- We are not trying to go for the Olympic Gold here. Simple. We ARE trying to make the best technology available to all shooters, not only those that can pay $4,000 per gun. The REAL issue here is how much accuracy is enough for most shooters? Not everyone needs Olympic style accuracy and precision. In fact, only about 0.05% of shooters really need that type of precision and accuracy. Even those that shoot 10 M Match at Club level, could very well win their leagues with original Giss rifles. Let alone with a new, updated, and more modern approach to weight distribution and ergonomics.
If you are really interested in what level of accuracy/precision is necessary for each common airgun pursuit, read this:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/its-all-about-accuracy
The entry is already 5 years old, and some of those ideas have changed a little, but the essence is that not everyone has the same needs.
Lastly, The "$800 / 100% built right" gun is already here. And under a number of different brands, names and "dresses". It's called the "custom gun" and there are a number of professional gunsmiths that can come up with different versions of it. You only need to define WHAT you are going to do with it and there will be several good candidates. It takes time and patience, because good things come to those that wait, but it is perfectly feasible. You will still need to learn to shoot a springer. What we are talking about here is a completely different animal.
Anyway, thanks again for your continued interest and your enlightening comments and observations.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Hi Hector!
Rod B. Here. As you are well aware I happen to love shooting heavy, mechanical air rifles the most. I'm not alone of course . There are a huge number of airgun shooters that feel the same. I'm thinking just about anyone with a MOD. 54 would be chomping at the bit to own one. I know I would. I truly believe in getting my money's worth. For me, a quality springer helps me feel I'm getting more value for my money. And I dont mind the extra work learning to use it. So yes it may just be the right time for another , more modern Giss gun in production. It needs to be unique in some of its operations , nice looking, understressed, moderately powered, easy to repair, well made and it needs to use as many existing parts as possible . Please dont do all of the above and muck it up with a screwed up creepy, heavy trigger unit! One will never know what an action is truly capable of with a mismatched under engineered trigger assembly ! Just my opinion.
A few years ago I designed a couple of lightweight spring guns. They were mostly aluminum. I built and shot the first one at a few FT matches. It was only 8-9fpe. The second design was to be 12fpe and had an opposing mass system. I had some failed attempts to make the highly stressed carbon fiber mechanical parts that were incorporated into the design. I almost switched to steel parts but that would have meant some significant performance compromises. I decided to put the project on indefinite hold. It till sits in my shop about half complete.
A hole in the market exists for a high quality sidelever, designed from the ground up as a 12fpe gun with about 36-38cc of swept volume. If it had an opposing mass or opposing piston system without too many compromises, even better.
Rod and Scott;
Thanks for your POV's, and yes we agree.
Trigger has to be at least as good as the T-06 without the complications of the DIANA 100.
CF is now being used in a number of fabrication methods, from the traditional laying and winding to pultrusion, so we can get a number of characteristics that were unthought / undreamt before.
Again, thanks!
HM
If you are going to make a gun as complicated as this, and then go a step further and use carbon fiber, and keep an $800 price point, it's going to have to be Chinese right?
An Air Arms Pro Sport with a beech stock lists for $700. A TX200 is still $600. An R9 is still near $400. Just for comparison.
If you are going to make a gun as complicated as this, and then go a step further and use carbon fiber, and keep an $800 price point, it's going to have to be Chinese right?
An Air Arms Pro Sport with a beech stock lists for $700. A TX200 is still $600. An R9 is still near $400. Just for comparison.
Nope.
As you have probably noticed, there are DIANA airguns made in Germany that are now breaking price points that were normally the domain of Spanish, Turkish, or Chinese rifles. Look into Cabelas' RWS 34P combo in 0.177"
Or the AoA D52 or D430L combo.
Or the standard pricing for the Mauser AM-03.
No chinese participation in this project, it's strategically important.
As for the AA's rifles, your money is MUCH better spent on a Walther LGV Master Pro ($452.85 + Sh). And just takes a little tweaking to get it to shoot real well.
A fully capable FT ready rifle for under $800? ABSOLUTELY!, if you know what you are doing and are not fixated/hung up on "great names" and "winningest rifles".
I may be a DIANA fan but, as a professional gunsmith, I fully recognize good guns that can be made great with little effort.
😉
HM
If you are going to make a gun as complicated as this, and then go a step further and use carbon fiber, and keep an $800 price point, it's going to have to be Chinese right?
An Air Arms Pro Sport with a beech stock lists for $700. A TX200 is still $600. An R9 is still near $400. Just for comparison.
Nope.
As you have probably noticed, there are DIANA airguns made in Germany that are now breaking price points that were normally the domain of Spanish, Turkish, or Chinese rifles. Look into Cabelas' RWS 34P combo in 0.177"
Or the AoA D52 or D430L combo.
Or the standard pricing for the Mauser AM-03.
No chinese participation in this project, it's strategically important.
As for the AA's rifles, your money is MUCH better spent on a Walther LGV Master Pro ($452.85 + Sh). And just takes a little tweaking to get it to shoot real well.
A fully capable FT ready rifle for under $800? ABSOLUTELY!, if you know what you are doing and are not fixated/hung up on "great names" and "winningest rifles".
I may be a DIANA fan but, as a professional gunsmith, I fully recognize good guns that can be made great with little effort.
😉
HM
I'm all in if it ain't Chinese! Sounds great, can't wait to see how it turns out.
No, and I would think it would find opposition in FT, unless it had it's own special class or was in the pcp class. Sort of like a recoiling and a non-recoiling class. I think that's the way it is in the U.K. and I know this isn't the U.K., but it may have an unfair advantage over standard spring guns. Of course, we will only know that if it's made.
No, and I would think it would find opposition in FT, unless it had it's own special class or was in the pcp class. Sort of like a recoiling and a non-recoiling class. I think that's the way it is in the U.K. and I know this isn't the U.K., but it may have an unfair advantage over standard spring guns. Of course, we will only know that if it's made.
At current WFTF events, Whiscombes shoot right alongside all other springers (one from Norway, one from the USA). I do not see a reason why that should/could/would change.
And in any event, FT is one market, but the main aim is to develop a general purpose, all-around sporter.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Have you considered making a Whiscombe?
How would that price look?
How, should I put this? Hmmmmmm
Let me try to be as delicate as I can, hopefully, this will put this "Whiscombe genius" idea where it belongs :
Whiscombe's guns were a specific embodiment of the design by Kurt Giss (one of the design engineers at DIANA), and the ONLY difference between the JW's embodiments and the original Giss Patent, was the ratcheting system to use two or three strokes. This makes the operation terribly complicated and the guns prone to self-destruct because there are ways to cock the springs without having opened the bolt, and then the springs are not only running into an empty chamber (dry fire), they are running in a vaccuum.
To load a 12 ft-lbs/2 stroke Whiscombe you need to:
1.- Open the bolt or tip the barrel up
2.- Stroke 1
3.- Stroke 2
4.- Load a pellet
5.- Close bolt/return barrel to position
6.- Safety off
Now you are ready.
To do the same with a DIANA 65, 66, 75:
1.- Cock the gun
2.- Load the pellet
3.- Close the gun
You are ready to fire (there is no safety in Match guns).
So ¿why, would we make a rifle after something that was copied from us? And even at that it was not a really good copy.
This is fig 2 in US patent 2,938,513:
Patent filed for in the US in 1956, granted 1960.
When were Whiscombes made? And, more importantly: ¿Are they still being made? ¿Why?
If you were a manufacturer, would you consider re-making a failure?
There are very specific reasons why Whiscombes work well only in England. We need to think of a bigger market and the bigger picture.
Yes we need to go back to DIANA's HEART and CORE ; and, hopefully, put this technology into such a machine that will be truly useful for everyone.
JMHO
HM
I'd be very interested and would commit to buying one. I would hope that the rifle would have limited plastic and a more appealing machining of the rifle parts than the 48/52/54 rifles - particularly the cocking arm and the front muzzle. Perhaps have a walnut stock option? I'd be on the pre-order list and know a few of my shooting friends would join me.
Yes, but I have a comment similar to what chardosmith said above. For $800, I expect a certain level of finishing. I'd say it should be at least on par with Weihrach, but I could probably live with the current finish quality of Diana's metalwork; HOWEVER, nicely finished wood without cheesy laser-scribed logo's should be the bare minimum. A "deluxe" stock option that is truly better than standard would make it considerably more tempting, even if it adds $100-$200 to the price. But, please, no visually prominent plastic parts like trigger guards, muzzle brakes, etc.
Bottom line, it needs to shoot AND look like it's worth $800!
Tanks to all!
I don't think this will be easy, but the great response from the US shooters gives me the incentive to try real hard.
So far, we have over 5000 shows of interest, and over 50 serious purchase intentions expressed.
With that, and whatever else we get from our visitors at IWA, I think we will make a strong case.
Again, thanks, you all have been great help!
HM
Sorry Brent!
Sadly, the Technical CEO of DIANA decided the gun was "overengineered" and decided to can the project.
Even more so with the new emphasis on the EMS (with which you can replicate almost any airgun you want) and the PCP's.
I still think it is possible, perhaps not with DIANA.
And we are working on a number of envelope pushing technologies.
It took us more than 2 years to get the EMS to market (should be before Sept.)
My shipment of Air King Pro's will be here beginning of July, so things take a LONG time to happen from idea to market, but we're not stopping now.
😉
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I want an air rifle that is quiet and accurate. Power needs to be at least 12 up to 20 ft lbs. No compressors, pumps or other baggage to weigh me down. Has to work in warm or cold weather (otherwise, CO2 is great).
If I'm shooting way out back away from neighbors, a .22 or .17 HMR works just fine as does just about any powder cartridge. I think spending $2000 or more on a PCP setup is a little much considering the other options I have available to me. $800 buys a nice deer rifle, shotgun or AR platform so no, probably not going to drop that on a Giss system gun.
Dear Don;
In DIANA-speak EMS stands for "Easy Manufacturing System" (Remember TLA's -as in Three Letter Acronyms- rule! LOL!)
It is a philosophy of airgun design and production whereby we put our faith in the user.
We are starting with the 34 size breakbarrel, probably because it is the most challenging platform. When we solve the problems in a breakbarrel, the solutions for side-levers (underlevers will probably be discontinued), and PCP's are obvious and easy. Later, if the market reacts positively, we may expand it to the 350 size platform, AND if it proves hugely successful, we may also apply it to the 280 sized platform.
Two years ago, we started by designing a breech block that can accept barrel changes (caliber, length and weight), that breechblock is also prepared to have a barrel lock (this will NOT come out as standard offering and MAY happen in the future, it all depends on the demand). This breechblock can also be "tuned" to a desired droop, or negative droop via shims, and it attaches to a mechanisms tube that can receive either a gas spring (NTec), or a steel spring. The steel spring case may have an Anti-Bounce Piston (ABP) device inserted, or not. We are looking into an adjustable Gas Ram to complement/supplement the NTec offering, but this is still some time away. The trigger will now be standardized to the interference type of trigger currently available in the NTec guns. The system will also have a beech, laminate, and synthetic, stock options. The barrels allow for three different front sights, as well as attachment of moderators/harmonics tuners. The rear sight can be a V or U notch, and there will also be a peep sight offering.
Scope rail disappears. We're going to the grooved tube system since the 5 axis CNC machines in current use CAN make nearly perfect grooves and the mechanisms tube we use is quite substantial.
When you take ALL of that into account, then you are in tinkerer's paradise! 😉
It is not all champagne and caviar.
We've been getting pushback from the commercial channel from the beginning. The ORIGINAL idea was that we would publish an "App" which would be a "configurator", and so EACH CUSTOMER could configure its OWN gun in the smartphone or PC, and then push a button to order it from the retailers which would order from the wholesalers basic assemblies and lots of parts.
In reality that was not appealing to the wholesalers, and so we ended up making a "basic model" (in reality two, defined by the stock choice) and then decided to offer all the parts and accessories as after-market purchases.
SO, . . . You want a short 12 ft-lbs gun with heavy barrel in 0.177" moderator and harmonics tuner (to shoot AAFTA Hunter FT, chimpunks in the back wall, squirrels off the pecan trees, or pigeons in the ranch) you can put it together. You want to use the SAME chassis, but in 0.22" and higher power (woodchucks, badgers, O'possa, or simply shoot at tin cans from 65 yards)? Just change the barrel with the accessories you want, and the powerplant. Same trigger, re-zero your scope; or have different scopes in their own mounts.
You want a long barrelled 5.5 ft-lbs gun to shoot in your Club's "Boys' Night Out" at 10 meters and then grab some beers? No problem! peep sights, a long barrel and a tunnel front sight and you're in business!
Maybe you are having a somewhat difficult problem and you NEED a 0.25" cal? Or you WANT a 0.20" cal? We can make custom barrels for you!
All in all, the whole philosophy has changed. WE (DIANA) do NOT claim to know better than YOU what YOU need. We will do our very best effort to give you the best possible platform so that YOU can come up with what YOU want/need. And we will do our best to work with selected professionals to ensure that THEY have an easier time making for YOU what YOU want or need.
At present, the first batches of "AirKing Pro" will reach the US at the beginning of July, and the first EMS guns will probably make it for late Sept - Oct.
Let me know if I need to expand on anything.
Thanks, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
@hector-j-medina-g
Don't give up on the recoiless piston. Design a gas ram surrounded by stainless steel BB's floating in thin synthetic oil. It would act like a dead blow hammer. Simple to make, a existing ram unit surrounded by a dead blow recoil system. Surely this could be engineered.
@hector-j-medina-g
Don't give up on the recoiless piston. Design a gas ram surrounded by stainless steel BB's floating in thin synthetic oil. It would act like a dead blow hammer. Simple to make, a existing ram unit surrounded by a dead blow recoil system. Surely this could be engineered.
I've made a few dozen ABP's (Anti-Bounce-Piston's; they do work, in a peculiar sense, like dead blow hammers), they work very well, but they are very complicated to make, take a lot of time and VERY precise manufacturing. The DIFFERENCE is that with the new EMS, you do not have to change pistons. The ABP is a unit that gets inserted into the piston and uses the steel spring. UP to the user to use what he wants or needs.
The new gas ram we are testing and trying to build in some numbers, is VERY smooth, and has little recoil (little mass moving). It still has the capability to handle heavy pellets and has little (if any) bounce because of the HUGE pre-load natural to gas springs (not only rams).
If the gas ram can come true, then we would have a very interesting gun, especially in the 12-20 ft-lbs range.
We'll have to wait and see.
HM
@hector-j-medina-g
I have a Diana 340 N-tec walnut. It has a T o 6 trigger. What is the new standard interference trigger on N-Tec models? Maybe mine is not T o 6???
What's the difference?
The 340 NTec you have HAS the NTec T06 trigger. It uses the same blade, and upper lever as the steel spring T06, but the sear trips an interference ramp, not a hook. So, the more energy/force/pressure there is on the piston at full cock, the faster the trigger works. Opposite to most other airgun triggers, it is extremely fast and, while it does have more parts than other interference triggers, it is relatively simple to adjust and maintain.
It can also be dialed REAL LIGHT, LOL!
😉
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
No. First problem you will face is cost to performance ratio. Even for some one as more than capable as yourself. To achieve the Giss experience, you need three things. Stock, trigger and Giss system. I say this with this in mind. Compare a RWS 54 to a 75T. Even though it is the same system (To some points) there is no comparison. No matter how much work even the most qualified trigger smith puts in to the stock RWS trigger you only have a nice turned RWS trigger. This could be the reason why Paul Watts offered a 700fps kit for the FWB300 and not the Diana 75T. If you go ahead with the build bet of luck.
tim
Dear Tim;
Perhaps you missed this answer:
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/postid/38657/
As the owner of several Giss guns, my favourite being the DIANA 65, I know what you are saying but, as a professional gunsmith, I also know the limits of the T06 and the T06 NTec trigger (different). Believe me when I tell you that the T06 Ntec can be set as finely, and as consistently, as ANY Match gun, even PCP's.
The 75's and 65's triggers have their own quirks. As do the 300's triggers.
Out of the medium-high power guns (between 5.5 and 24 ft-lbs), my favourite is the DIANA 54, and the new AirKing Pro is a bit better than the previous model; not perfect yet, because with technologies we already have, we could be issuing an efficient, adjustable, smooth shooting, gas ram gun with the T06 Ntec trigger and a slightly modified barrel. To ME, that is the ACME of the model. Will it ever be made? Dunno. We are also researching into other technologies, and a breakthrough may happen at any time, so we cannot foretell the future, we are just simple gunsmiths. We will take whatever technology makes most sense.
And even the best technology is subject to the market understanding that technology and embracing it. Without sales, no product can survive.
It's a piece of cake to make a 54 yield 700 fps with 8.44 grs. pellets, there are several advanced ways of doing it with Match Accuracy (at 10 meters). BTW, it's not only a change of spring. But there is one that allows the peak cocking force to drop to 20 lbs. And THAT is something that the "Arctic" springs and the PW mods were not able to do for the 300.
On the other side of the power curve, the SAME configuration (this time it is a simple spring change), can yield up to 15 ft-lb with no loss in accuracy.
😉
Thanks for reading and thanks for the input!
HM
I was only responding to the question"Open question.- Would you pay $800 for a newly built Giss action-based recoil-less spring-piston airgun?" In no way would I ever pretend to even know a 1/4 of what your experience has thought you. But like you I have had my share of time behind many, many air gun triggers and other match triggers(as being in the gun business myself for 40 years) and holding a couple of old Texas state airgun silhouettes class wins. I find it hard to believe that anyone can cost efficiently make a RWS filed grade trigger "Set as finely, and as consistently, as ANY Match gun, even PCP's". To make a RWS trigger or for that matter any field grade trigger that could be tuned down to 100 to 170 grams. Is something I would have to see and shoot to believe. Trigger aside the gas ram would seem a much more practical platform to explore for your project. As I said before, if you go ahead with the project I wish you the best of luck.
My initial reaction was nah, too complicated. I was thinking of the Diana guns, which were were quickly outclassed by the simpler FWB 65. But then someone mentioned Whiscomb, and I remember giving serious thought to buying one. If I could get a good recoiless spring gun I’d sell my customized M-Rod.
Guess I am way late to this one, but I love Giss systems and my Win 333 is just about king of all them. I would certainly be interested if a new one (especially with modern seals) could be produced... but don't forget that trigger! Giss or not, that old trigger is a thing of joy.
I know I'm late... not sure how I missed the original post... but I would definitely be interested !
Love my Hy-Score 810M (Dianna 60), and also have a FWB300SU, but have not really shot it a lot... too many other air rifles to shoot I guess.
Also have a Whiscombe JW50FB .177 that had at least two other owners, and was re-furbished by John Whiscombe prior to the previous owner that I bought it from back in 2004... it really is a magnificent piece of workmanship... I have to admit that I dry fired it a few times over the years, which is easy to do if you get a little distracted in the sequence required to fire it... nothing broke... I recall someone post several years ago on another forum that John changed the steel used in the ratcheting brackets that eliminated the self-destruction... I hope so... I try to stay focused when shooting it... I've been playing with the HOTS (Harmonic Optimized Tuning System) with a supply of JSB Exact 4.53 pellets... mainly because there are no longer any good Crosman Premier Light 7.9gr pellets.
If a new recoiless springer is produced, I hope it is robust and fairly easy to work on.
@mjfa It would be nice to have a higher powered recoiless springer for shooting ranges normal to a regular springer air rifles... from 10 yards to 55 yards... and beyond if possible... that's what a Whiscombe is known for... now limited to what exists, and the prices keep going up, so something more affordable would be very nice !
I do love my two 10 meter springers... my HyScore 810m... and the FWB300SU... sure they can be shot at further distances, but lack the beneficial power to reach out there.
