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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 3, 2019 15:53:22  

Hi folks ,

I just bought my first Diana pistol the New Diana LP8 in .22cal. Apparently I'm the only one who has one in 22. I needed the power level high in this pistol purchase and especially for $300. My brother and I have been building his cottage for 2 years and we are in the bush. Lots of giant rats snakes etc. So a nice pellet pistol would be a good tool. But after I did some chrono tests on the LP8 it only managed a 351 fps with 14.3grs and a 318 with a 15.9 grs. Nowhere near the 495 fps in .22cal the Canadian version is advertised at. I asked AOA and they said it should be at 499 fps with the CPs. 

Any advise on what to do next to bring this power up proper? I appreciate any help . Thank you,

Captain Air 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 667
December 3, 2019 16:13:57  
Posted by: @captain-air

Hi folks ,

I just bought my first Diana pistol the New Diana LP8 in .22cal. Apparently I'm the only one who has one in 22. I needed the power level high in this pistol purchase and especially for $300. My brother and I have been building his cottage for 2 years and we are in the bush. Lots of giant rats snakes etc. So a nice pellet pistol would be a good tool. But after I did some chrono tests on the LP8 it only managed a 351 fps with 14.3grs and a 318 with a 15.9 grs. No where near the 495 fps in .22cal the Canadian version is advertised at. I asked AOA and they said it should be at 499 fps with the CPs. 

Any advise on what to do next to bring this power up proper? I appreciate any help . Thank you,

Captain Air 

I remember reading a few years back that they didn't deliver as much velocity as they were rated for. As to whether that's changed since then, I haven't heard a thing.

Just now, I did find a video on YouTube that seems to indicate you have to get one in .177 caliber to get 500 fps. of it. My copy and paste efforts don't always work from my phone. But, this one looks like it might do okay. Let's give it a try.

Just to let you  know, this video says it's from 5 years ago. Maybe something has changed since then. That is, maybe the velocity has increased since then. If you look around on there on YouTube some more you may find another video with a more recent timestamp. It may have upgraded velocities. I didn't look real hard. But, they're easy enough to find on there.


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 3, 2019 18:35:16  

Thank you Ed ,

I saw the video. Well looks like maybe they drilled a hole in the Canadian pistols plus or even a very bad seal. 

It should be at 440 fps at least in .22cal. Mine is a .22cal . 

Maybe I'll have it take it apart, have a look.

Captain Air

 

 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
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Posts: 667
December 3, 2019 19:44:49  

@captain-air

You're welcome. I could swear that somewhere along the way, after it was first introduced, something was done so that the velocity was in fact improved a bit. Now I know that's vague, but it's the best I can do. I don't remember the details.

If you're talking about drilling out a transfer port, be very careful there. If you overdo it even by just a tiny bit, your velocity will go down, not up, and the thing can wind up with a more harsh shot cycle.

As far as a bad seal, I don't know whether you're talking about a piston seal or a breech seal. Breech seals are super simple to test in most makes and models. Other than try to find a replacement seal that's bigger, a few wraps of waxed dental floss under the factory seal will usually tell you in a hurry if that's a problem. Then you can look for a permanent fix.

In fact, if it's too hard to find something that's bigger to fit, waxed dental floss located under a seal isn't going to go anywhere and it isn't going to shrink. It can be used as a permanent fix, or at least until you see the velocity drop off again. I prefer the waxed version because it's a little easier to install, and tends to stay put once at a little pressure put on it.

(Edit: After reading a comment or two, I better add something here. Just to be clear, when mentioning  the possible use of dental floss, I'm referring to breech seals that still look good, with no deterioration, but leave one wondering if they might have shrunk a little, or might not have been big enough in the first place. In other words,  I'm talking about sizing issues, not breech seals that are falling apart. Addressing size issues is where the dental floss fix underneath the seal may prove useful.

OTOH, if the seal shows signs of deterioration, cracking, chunks missing, Etc, it's time for a new seal. Dental floss isn't going to fix that. You might be able to use the floss as a temporary TEST if the deterioration isn't too bad. But a seal that's falling apart certainly can't be left in place or trusted, dental floss or no).

PLEASE, just don't let an ugly rumor get started here that I'm tuning air guns with dental floss for a breech seal (!!!). I've never shipped a single gun out of here with dental floss under the breech seal. But, if it was my gun, in a pinch I might do it because I'd know it was there, and needed looked at again from time to time to make sure it was still doing its job.


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 999
December 3, 2019 21:37:22  

first .22 caliber lp8 were not imported but were made

now the seals in the pistol are the same as the model 5's and 6's so they are easy to find

if the breech seal look flat, crushed, it need a new one and when you change it out you may find shim washers under the O-ring, maybe up to 3

they are used to take the droop out of the pistol

the breech  seal is a 7mm x 2.5mm and they need to be 2.5mm not under

I bought some from o-rings and more and they were 2.53+ and they work well where as the o-ring you get from Air Rifle Headquarters  are under and cause a problem with POI

the shim are .13mm thick

with all that said the piston seal could be bad and or the spring or both 

just a note the ARH pistol seal are oversize  and because they are not easy to install be aware of that

just some info


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desertplinkerforlife
(@desertplinkerforlife)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 47
December 3, 2019 22:39:21  

Caption Air I have the LP 8 in 177 and love it. But, it sounds to me like your needs are different from that pistol's  platform. If you want a pistol for pesting monsters I would look at a PCP. The Mac 1 LD PCP or Co2 would do you well. 500 fps in .22. 


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 3, 2019 23:42:39  

@ekmeister

I here you. Absolutely I'm usually very quiet about others efforts especially to help me out. That sounds like something I can do I think. Thanks a bunch Ed. I was hoping I could try something myself with out sending the gun out as I always do. When I have some luck  with the LP8 I'll let you how it turned out.  Have a good night ,

Captain Air 

 


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 3, 2019 23:49:44  

@marflow

Hi Mike , that's a good chunk of info thank you very much. I look forward to trying . Such a nice shooter I hope I can use your kind advice and fix it. I hate leaving stuff sub-par. Great to know something is wrong my new pistol instead of hearing, that's what it is. Have a good a night ,

Captain Air 


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 3, 2019 23:53:59  

@desertplinkerforlife

Hi there Desert Plinker , I was thinking of doing just that right before I purchased the Diana lol. I  guess I might do that for a future pistol buy. I had a Falcon Pistol called but it was fussy. Thank you ,

Captain Air 


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 999
December 4, 2019 03:26:08  

well Captain I think the LP8 is ok as big heavy spring pistols go but compared to all the Diana pistol of the past the trigger sucks

but if you have enough imagination you can make it very good, would you be happy if the trigger only moved 1.5mm and be lighter on top of that and the safety still works, well it can be done

and for those that are looking for word grips, they are not made any more

 


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
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Posts: 541
December 4, 2019 10:44:34  
Posted by: @captain-air

Hi folks ,

I just bought my first Diana pistol the New Diana LP8 in .22cal. Apparently I'm the only one who has one in 22. I needed the power level high in this pistol purchase and especially for $300. My brother and I have been building his cottage for 2 years and we are in the bush. Lots of giant rats snakes etc. So a nice pellet pistol would be a good tool. But after I did some chrono tests on the LP8 it only managed a 351 fps with 14.3grs and a 318 with a 15.9 grs. Nowhere near the 495 fps in .22cal the Canadian version is advertised at. I asked AOA and they said it should be at 499 fps with the CPs. 

Any advise on what to do next to bring this power up proper? I appreciate any help . Thank you,

Captain Air 

C-A:  Have you checked your Federal and Local laws?

The laws in Canada state that an airgun, to be free from Firearm Acquisition Licensing requirements needs to shoot under 500 fps  AND have a M.E. UNDER 5.7 Joules (4.2 ft-lbs).

So, your LP-8 is still "on the money" as far as FEDERAL  FIREARM ACT legality is concerned.

There is a loop under the Firearm Act, that will NOT apply under the Criminal Code: A gun CAN develop more than 5.7 Joules as long as it does not exceed the 500 fps threshold AND is used ONLY for lawful purposes, as soon as a crime (ANY) is committed, the user will be charged under the Criminal Code.

Send an EMail to the RCMP : cfp-pcaf@rcmp-grc.gc.ca 

You can read the details here:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/specific-types-firearms#ag  

The LP-8 is, in essence a "small rifle" in the sense that it acts, functions, and behaves exactly as a small piston rifle would. It is technically capable of Muzzle Energies of up to 8.6 Joules or about 6.34 ft-lbs (which also makes them illegal in the UK).

There are several ways through which the "importer of record"/retailer could have been covering his behind and restricted/detuned the gun in some way but you would need to look into it as an individual and be prepared to be held accountable for your actions.

PERSONALLY, I think that your gun was assembled from a Canadian 0.177" LP-8 (495 fps with a 0.177" pellet) and the barrel was swapped. I have NO records of a 0.22" cal. version ever being sold.

I have interphased with the RCMP a few times on behalf of Steyr and DIANA, and have found them more than rational and sensible. I have nothing but the highest opinion of their technical firearms guys. Talk to them and find out what are YOUR options. Of course, you will need to talk to the provincial and city (if any) governments to make certain that what you can do will not backfire on you (pun intended).

HTH, keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

 

 

HM


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Doug Wall
(@doug-wall)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 156
December 4, 2019 11:48:01  

I don't even find the LP8 listed in .22 anywhere. Are you sure it's an LP8, and not the Browning 800? One of the reviews that I saw on the LP8 showed pretty poor accuracy. Between low velocity, and poor accuracy, it's not the combination you need for hunting "giant rats". AOA , Umarex, or Pyramyd,  don't list the LP8 in .22.

What you really need is a nice carbine length rifle, in .22, with the max velocity that you can have (Canada? 500fps), and a nice, close focusing AO scope


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 999
December 4, 2019 15:22:22  

at one time I asked Umarex if they had .22 barrels for the LP8 and Mark told me they never imported pistol in .22 and had no barrels and the reason I knew they had made .22 barrel was, they were listed on a German gun site but they wouldn't ship to the states

so they were made in .22 caliber and maybe a Canadian company imported them and one migrated to the states

after digging around last night I did find out that the  Diana 5 mag uses the same spring as the LP8, part 304170 and that spring is used in a Diana model 20 TO1 also

now anyone that knows the 5 mag will know that pistol didn't live up to the power ratings without using spit wads, so I find it curious that the same spring was used in the LP8 and the pistol performed way better

but I guess that neither  here nor there at this point 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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Posts: 667
December 4, 2019 15:46:50  

This thread all got started about 500 fps. in .22 caliber. 

I think the .22 cal. Beeman P1, aka the HW 45, probably got pretty close with a light pellet. Maybe not a 14.3 gr. mid-weight, but with a light one. I remember working on one of those pistols in 20 caliber, and it got the advertised velocity with a light pellet, I just can't remember what that advertised velocity is at the moment.

The frame of that pistol was pretty huge compared to the 1911 World War 1 era pistol that it set out to copy, or at least emulate, to some extent. Some of you may remember the photos of those two sitting side-by-side in the Beeman catalog, where it contrasted the difference. And, in harmony with another comment on this thread, or maybe in that video, the frame had to be big to produce that much velocity with a spring pistol.

I'd love to own one, although probably in 177 caliber, to keep it as flat shooting as possible. However, if somebody wanted to just plain give me one, I'd take it in any caliber I could get it! LOL.


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chrisT
(@christ)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 34
December 4, 2019 16:10:58  

a lot of companies used to get their velocity measurements using 6-6.5 gr .177 pellets , like something in 10 grain or less for .22.  Add in all the various European laws/ Canuck not being much different ( they are all stuck in the 16 and 17 century feudal systems mindsets) and performance wise for that design era they were less than adequate for the OP's purpose better off with the  old Benjimin or crossman pump up units (if you remember those) and can find one. 

There areas here in the colonies that have draconian rules as well right down to spitballs and straws.


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 4, 2019 22:36:10  

@ekmeister

Hi Ed, I had many P1s and springer gas ram pistols just never had Diana pistol. I'm mainly a hand gun guy. I use to teach our police officers how to shoot there service pistols. I think I was 16 years old then. I grew up with ETF , Detectives and special operations individuals way back. We all trained together when I was 12 years old. We only had 2 schools in Canada that could teach the police self defense. Kempo was one. I shot Olympic style free hand. I was trained by a Hungarian Olympic marksman when I was 12 years old. I only referred to him as Mr. Papp. So I love a good old springer hand gun that recoils. The more the better. This Diana has enough engine room for hot rodding for sure. To 499fps . I have all my licences and prohibited too but we don't care about power past that of a Webley Alecto or a Crosman pumper ... they all shoot here in Canada 499 fps in the big .22 bore for decades. You don't need more than that in a pellet pistol, but I like to have it operate right at Critical Mass . 

Captain Air 


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 17, 2019 22:44:44  

Hi folks ,

I have an update for the Diana LP8 .22cal shocker , 

I asked an air gun tuner buddy of mine to take the LP8 apart for a once over and lubes so he did, as well he worked on the spring ends and added one washer on both ends. So it turns out the LP8 looked very good inside and no holes in the piston and the piston seal itself was fine too. I did notice a chunk missing on my original Breach seal so my buddy replaced it .

The LP8 went from shooting 14.3 grs Crosman Premier pellets at 331fps before the tune to shooting a huge 50 fps increase in a .22 to shooting 370 to 380 fps after the tune. So the spring looked good too, but it just might be a  low power spring?? I asked Umarex in Arkansan and they said just try a factory spring new. So I'm getting a factory spring from  An Umarex distributor near me in Kingston Ontario. Hopefully it comes up a bit more. My old HW45 .22cal shot a healthy 425fps with the 14.3gr CPs so I still can't believe this bigger gun can match or best it ? 

Update soon , Cheers !

Captain Air 

 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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December 17, 2019 23:35:51  

@captain-air

I'm glad to hear you finally got to going in the right direction. It remains to be seen how far you can take it, of course. I hope you get it at or close to that velocity you want.

It's more than a little possible that a different spring could help. There may not be a different one available from Diana, but you might be able to find one from a totally different brand, make, or model that will still fit the other internal parts like the spring guide, and provide more power. You might also find something from ARH that helps you there, although I don't know if James ships to Canada or not. Your situation is also a good one for knowing how to cut and close a a coil mainspring for a custom fit.

Something that can be very tricky when trying to determine how much velocity or power you get out of a springer, is the design and ID size of the transfer port. The ideal for getting maximum velocity is to have a very short transfer port of just the right diameter. Where it can get tricky is that even though two different models may have the same size transfer port, the one with the longer port robs the pellet of more air. Thus, your velocity will be lower, all other things being equal.

Another thing that can be tricky is, exactly what is the right inside diameter diameter for the port in your make and model  of gun? You'd be surprised how much difference a few thousandths of an inch in diameter can make. In fact, varying the size of a transfer port is one of the methods that manufacturers use to limit the power of their guns, especially when those guns are going to be exported to a country with velocity and or power limits.

I have no idea what the port size should be in the LP8 for maximum velocity. And, I have no idea what the size might be when the manufacturer has altered it to limit its power, if they even do that on the LP8. But, it could be worth measuring it to see what you actually have there. Then, perhaps you could post the size and other people could compare it with what they have on have on their LP8's.

One of the best tools, one of the most common and most accurate tools, for measuring transfer port size is a drill bit, assuming you have a nice variety on-hand in both SAE and metric bits, so you can check for very small differences in size. Try to find the one that's the best fit inside the port, without pushing or twisting it too hard. If you force it, it may get stuck. Then you'll be calling the thing all kinds of names, as you try to figure out the best way to remove it. Been there done that.

HTH.


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 999
December 18, 2019 04:31:34  

try a lighter pellet like the RWS Hobby

if the spring going in easy you could shim it let say 5mm and that might give it a few feet

as I stated above the spring is the same as the 5g mag

Ekmeister do you think they would have used a different tube for the .177 vs .22 

one other thing how tight are 14.3 going in the barrel


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DavidEnoch
(@davidenoch)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 374
December 18, 2019 08:10:24  

Well, I am getting to this post too late.  If I had posted earlier I would have recommended that you return it to AOA and tell them it did not make the velocity they promised with Crosman Premiers.  Since you have torn into it, it is too late for that.  I don't think the pistol is going to make the power you want.  I think they pretty much maxed it out trying to get it up to P1 levels and fell short.

David Enoch


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 18, 2019 12:14:06  

@ekmeister

Thank you Ed,

for your advice, it is much appreciated.  I never thought of the transfer port. I will definitely post all the results.  

Captain Air 


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 18, 2019 12:26:59  

@marflow

Hi marflow , 

the CP pellets fit loose and some fit snug...so you know, the quality of the tin is not for target shooters but definitely a go too pellet. Great idea ! A 5G Magnum factory spring. I hope they didn't change the engine room on the LP8. Thanks for the idea. I will follow up.  Should be worth a try. 

Captain Air


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 18, 2019 12:36:04  

@davidenoch

Hi David,

I'm thinking that's true. It's too bad really, I would never work for a company that tells kids,  teenagers and pensioners to spend $300 plus tax and shipping on a pistol that we are lying about what your going to get for your very valuable Canadian dollars?? I would never. Too bad, as I said. Cheers,

Captain Air


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
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Posts: 667
December 18, 2019 13:25:42  

@marflow

As far as using a different receiver tube size, I've never seen that done before on the same model. And, I think I've already posted that I've never seen one of these pistols before. If not, I'm posting it now. So, I don't know what they might be doing with them.

In theory though, someone could take the same model, and use a tube that is the same diameter on the outside, but is smaller on the inside, and you'd never know it by looking at it. And, that little 'trick' could result in lower velocity.

captain-air said he had the pistol apart and got to look at the seal. We'd have to ask him if he measured it, and if the measurement he got is the same size that's always used, or not.

I know there has been at least one springer clone on the market in the past that used a different sized piston seal than the seal that was used on the gun that was being copied. And, by different, I mean smaller.

If memory serves me correctly on the model, that would have been the RWS 320. I'm talking about a Chinese-made clone of the R9. I seem to remember that the clone had a 25 mm seal, while the R9 has a 26 mm seal.

I thought that perhaps the same air rifle was still being sold with either an Industry or Xisico label on it. But, after a quick look, I can't tell if it's even available anymore. However, that doesn't change what I said about its history, in regard to utilizing a smaller seal size.

Now, as far as the receiver tube, your question has caused something else to cross my mind, that's not related to the size of the piston seal. It has to do with stroke and swept volume.

If someone shortens the piston travel, or stroke, of a given model, that will also yield lower velocity. They could accomplish the same thing by using a tube that isn't as deep on the inside, and you'd never be able to tell that by looking at the outside of the tube.

All of this starts to be a lot of pretty exhausting conjecture after a while though, LOL. Like I said, I've never seen one of them, and I don't know what the correct dimensions are for the model that produces the maximum velocity. Someone who had several specimens to work with could do the measuring if they wanted to. 

But, I'm afraid that I can't help anyone there, even if I wanted to. I don't have any of them here to measure.


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 999
December 18, 2019 15:04:15  

my question about the tube was more in the realm of the transfer port size

would a transfer port work well with a .177 but the same size port not work with a .22

I'm in the mind that when Diana built these pistols they used the same tube on both .177 and .22

both I'm guessing, just try to be logical

in any case R and D work can be costly for the hobbyist


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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December 18, 2019 16:09:45  

@marflow

While there has been some research done regarding different transfer port sizes for different calibers, especially by owners trying to find those magic, elusive numbers, the gains have typically been so small that manufacturers and owners alike have standardized on a single port size for a given model.  And, unless an owner finds his gun has slipped through in out of spec condition, he's learned to leave it alone for getting the best results.

I've done a little of that R&D work myself. I was just one for instance, I was working on a Beeman R1 in .22 caliber, and was trying to squeeze a little more velocity out of it by increasing the port size by a few thousandths. I mean, literally by only .002". I already knew from experience that if I  made it just a little too large, it could result in a decrease in piston velocity, and a harsher shot cycle due to due to piston slam. I did get a tiny increase, but, I do mean tiny.

You can do a Google search and read information from all over the web, over the past 20 years or even more. You can also try some experimentation yourself. If you do, I think your overall conclusion will be pretty much in harmony with what I just wrote.

 I don't know if you caught my comment in an above post, But it's not just the transfer Port size that matters. It's the design of the port, too. in fact, it's actually design of the entire power plant working in combination as a single unit That determines what works best. I'll give you an example.

The RWS 34 has a transfer Port size of 4 mm, or about .155". It's also rather long-ish. Yet, the rifle is capable of producing magnum velocities with a smooth shot cycle. if you use that same transfer port size on the R9 or R1, the shot cycles would be absolutely brutal. The transfer port sizes that Weihrauch has settled on for those guns is right in the order of about .116"-.118",  or extremely close to it.

The term that describes the total result of all the pieces working together for a good outcome is, "synergy". in the case of a springer, those pieces include at the very least, the piston, piston seal size, the swept volume, in the design and size of the transfer port. all of the matter.

I don't know if they've ever come up with a computer model that could completely tell in advance what the best design is. I think there's always some of its going to have to be left through trial and error after a prototype is built and tested. then modified, and tested again.

Still, in instances like we are discussing here, it's nice to know what that number is that the manufacturer went with. Then you can do a comparison on your own gun.

 I really do have some other things to do around here. All this technical stuff I've ever written will be going in the book that I will NEVER write someday, LOL.


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desertplinkerforlife
(@desertplinkerforlife)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 47
December 25, 2019 20:33:13  

I have a Diana LP8 magnum in 177 and it shoots 7.3 pellets in the 560 fps range. 


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 26, 2019 11:54:23  

@desertplinkerforlife

Hi Happy holiday yes that's what it is suppose to shoot . Stronger than the HW45. I had many 45s and they all shoot 20 to 30 FPS slower after a tin of pellets. 495 fps Lead, being the true number. For sure there is a U.S.A.  export Version of the Diana LP8 that shoots as it should. 

Captain Air


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James Perotti
(@jpsaxnc)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 89
December 27, 2019 08:07:18  

Hi Captain Air, considering the range that most shooters could accurately hit a rat or snake off hand with a powerful spring piston pistol, does it really need to shoot 500 fps?


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Captain Air
(@captain-air)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 18
December 27, 2019 21:18:53  

@jpsaxnc

Hi james ,

Everything I own is tuned to perfection. It's an engineering Obsession. But Most importantly, I don't like getting ripped off period. I always do everything in my power to correct the rip off. As for rat shooting, we live behind a rat infested creek the city can never fix...40 years now. I hit a thousand by now...maybe a few hundred , seems like more. so from experience no it is never enough. These are 15 inch giant rats . And the smaller ones are wearing body armor or are enhanced . so yes power helps big time. We are far from them 15 yards. Too scared to get closer lol. Happy Holidays James !

Captain Air 


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