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My Crosman F4 QuietFire (Exclusive WalMart Version) ... WalMart: No ReFund/Return Policy Concerning Crosman Airguns --- Crosman: No Refund for WalMart Purchased Airguns

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Alejandro O. Martinez
(@aom22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 167
Topic starter  

I was in WalMart the other day, on a cat food mission - at least that was my pretense for going.
Anyway, ya'll know "the rest of the story" ... strategically divert to the sporting goods section to view the airguns, pellets, targets, etc.
That's when, I spied a Crosman F4 outfitted with a moderator.

As things would have-it, I'd just been thinking about quieting my Gauntlet.
Since I acquired the Gauntlet, I've had the nagging perception the rifle was-not inconspicuous-enough for-my-liking in the backyard.

Ya see, the Gauntlet is my outside air rifle - sitting outdoors on our patio - always at the ready.
As such, the Gauntlet lives an unpampered existence quite unlike my German airguns.

I was thinking, why not an inexpensive synthetic-stocked springer for constant standby-duty out-of-doors?
Well, here comes the F4 QuietFire at WalMart - what a timely coincidence.  LOL
And at a cost of-only $83.00 for the rifle!!!
Moreover in the corner-of-my-eye, was a CenterPoint 3-12x44 scope with ballistic MOA reticle on-an-adjacent-shelf.
Who ... in their right-air-gun-mind ... could resist such temptations?!?!?

After paying for the rifle at the Sporting Goods department.
I couldn't wait to-get-home to send a pellet down-range just-to-hear the report.
That was the entire point of this purchase, to gage the quietness of a moderated gas-ram.


Crosman F4 QuietFire (WalMart Version) with CenterPoint 4-12x44 on Diana Zero-Recoil Mount 


Standing Position with Offhand Lightly Braced
Crosman Premier Hollowpoint, 7.9g 
5-Shots at 20-Yards

Orange-Dot 3/4-Inch Diameter
Upper POI @ 1-O'Clock 
Sighter from Prior Group

Well to my startled-self, the first-shot sounded-like a .22lr going-off ... dieseling!!!
I damn-near dropped the rifle at-the-sound of the discharge.
Boy, was I feeling stupid!!!
Anyway, the rest of-the-shots were a-lot-more quiet ... needless-to-say.
But, not as quiet as I had expected.  

Worse, accuracy was degrading.
To the point, only 2-or-3 pellets POIs out-of a 10-shot string were forming any semblance of-a-group.
The remaining POIs were inches-away from my POA.
I suspect after a full-tin of 500 pellets, the near-constant-flexing of the synthetic shroud had caused the assembly to permanently deflect - somewhat.
And as a result, had begun to randomingly clip pellets.

Anyway fast-forward, my F4 is on-the-way-back to Crosman.
But, here is more to this story ...  after I finish some domestic chores.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1121
 

But I'm not RETURNING, I'm EXCHANGING.

I don't want my money back, I just want one that works!

 

It's worked every time, so far.


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Alejandro O. Martinez
(@aom22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 167
Topic starter  
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

But I'm not RETURNING, I'm EXCHANGING.
I don't want my money back, I just want one that works!

It's worked every time, so far.

Well ... after doing a little research, I found-out Crosman has three-tiers of moderated gas-ram air rifles.
This is silver, gold and platinum ... each succeeding level being more quiet than the prior.
The F4 was not in any of the designated sleathliness classes.
For me, returning the F4 would free-up more funds for a less noisy air rifle.
Such-as the currently available Benjamin Vaporizer SBD (Gold) or Nitro Piston Elite Ironhide Black (Gold).

So, off to the WalMart-Return-Counter I went.
Where I was informed by a very stern service-lady that the store has-had a NO-RETURN ... NO-REFUND policy towards Crosman air rifles.
Problem was ... the policy was not posted in the air gun section.

Moreover, the unflinching attendant stated had-I-bothered to inspect my receipt ...  a statement to-said-effect was inscribed thereon. 
Looking at my receipt ... there was nothing to support that assertion.
Adding-to-this, Crosman has a NO-REFUND policy applying specifically to WalMart purchased air rifles.


So, here I am ... in a "Catch-22" situation.
There was no-way I was gonna-be able to get my money back ... neither from WalMart nor Crosman.
And, Crosman has no upgrade-provision for an exchange ... looks-like I'm stuck with this F4 by default.

But on the brighter-side, if the problem with my F4 can be corrected.
And the initial accuracy returns, I might be able to find some-use for this inexpensive gas-ram.
As I already own a Crosman Stealth springer, TR77NPS and three-MTR77NP gas-rams.
I can make-room for the F4 ... after-all this break-barrel has some rather sauvette lines.
If-only, the F4 ever-shoots as-good as it looks.

 


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(@blowgun)
Joined: 2 months ago
Posts: 38
 

@aom22 I don't know much about air rifles even though I've been shooting them for many decades. I just haven't kept up with the technology because I got sidetracked into black powder rifles. But from reading the posts on this forum, for the last couple of weeks I found out that out of the box air rifles have some sort of cosmoline or other protectant applied to the inside of the barrels. If that's true with your rifle, that could account for that ridiculous inaccuracy. Running a few patches through cleans it out. Hope this helps.

 


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(@blowgun)
Joined: 2 months ago
Posts: 38
 

But it's good for the rest of us to know about Walmart's policies.


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 831
 

This is what I blame for so many people not getting more into the sport. If they had a good experience with a starter gun they might stick around longer. Almost all the local ads for starter guns all have, "Little use" "Tin of pellets included" "like new". 

Expectations are not met and people just give up on the gun.


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Alejandro O. Martinez
(@aom22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 167
Topic starter  
Posted by: @blowgun

@aom22 Running a few patches through cleans it out.
Hope this helps.

 

After the accuracy began to decline, the first thing I did was swab-out the barrel with a few cleaning patches.
In hindsight, I shoulda' cleaned the barrel before the first shot.
But, I was so intent-on hearing what effect the moderator would have on the report ... my common sense went-out the window.
No doubt the long-term storage lubricant in the barrel were the cause of the dieseling.


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Alejandro O. Martinez
(@aom22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 167
Topic starter  
Posted by: @blowgun

But it's good for the rest of us to know about Walmart's policies.

And, Crosman's Policy as well.

WALMART PURCHASES

Crosman / Benjamin / Remington Air Rifles and Pistols are not refundable via Crosman Corporation.
As the manufacturer, we provide Warranty Support only.
Contact your Walmart point of purchase for any refund requests.


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Alejandro O. Martinez
(@aom22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 167
Topic starter  
Posted by: @pluric

This is what I blame for so many people not getting more into the sport.
Expectations are not met and people just give up on the gun.

Some of the blame should lay with the manufacturer.
I'd hardly consider a 1200fps, moderated gas-ram as a good choice for a starter air rifle.

Crosman has only a few metallic-spring air rifles left-in in production or inventory.
And I can't recall within the last few years of ever seeing a true Crosman springer on the shelf at my local WalMart.
Moreover, neither of the metallic-spring models present as attractive marketing silhouettes as the "nitro piston" magnums and super-magnums.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1121
 

That's a nice story, but I can read, and, I'm not about to take "NO!" for an answer, not from a Wlamrat employee.

It says REFUND, not exchange.

You know what this haircut says?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6f8532751ceb198802a5a438cb5c634e

Karen jokes aside...

I do agree with the points made by Pluric, and Mr. Martinez.

Someone was telling me recently about a 3600fps pellet rifle, just uses a spring!


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Doug Wall
(@doug-wall)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 186
 

"But, I was so intent-on hearing what effect the moderator would have on the report ... my common sense went-out the window."

Well, with either a springer, or gas ram, you get a lot of noise from the action. It's generally more than the noise of the muzzle report.

As for accuracy- You don't say what pellets you're shooting. You should really test other pellets to find out what the gun really likes.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1121
 
Posted by: @doug-wall

"But, I was so intent-on hearing what effect the moderator would have on the report ... my common sense went-out the window."

Well, with either a springer, or gas ram, you get a lot of noise from the action. It's generally more than the noise of the muzzle report.

As for accuracy- You don't say what pellets you're shooting. You should really test other pellets to find out what the gun really likes.

All due respect to Doug, this statement is exactly the opposite of my experience.

Restated more bluntly, IMHO, it's Fudd Lore, and it should go away.

 

I've had enough hearing damage to develop ringing when doing simple stuff like racking an AK.

THAT is mechanical noise, and so you see, I have a low threshold for the ringing to start.

Every springer I've put a LDC on has gone from being above that threshold, to below that threshold.

Even the mighty H135 comes down to sounding like a hot red ryder, when it previously sounded like a pneumatic framing nailer.

With some delrin, the gas ram is damn near silent, just a plunger type sound.

 

Try it, on a tuned springer, and come back to tell me I'm wrong.

Everyone try it, let's stamp out this misinformation.


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 831
 

I put a LDC on my HW97 and considered it a waste of money. Just sayn'. Noise reduction was nothing compared to a similar set up on a PCP. That said, I didn't try it on other springers due to mounting issues so it was really a one gun test.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1121
 
Posted by: @pluric

I put a LDC on my HW97 and considered it a waste of money.

Which LDC?

 

I make a habit of trying to figure out how I could be wrong, let me get that out of the way before I open my mouth.

No doubt, there are exceptions.

 

Internal volume and baffle count, seems to me, the largest factor, and I suspect that there is a sweet spot for each gun, and certain platforms would require less volume with more baffles. True baffles, to strip air. Not just a fart can.

There is more to it, but I am also lacking sufficient sample size to pin it down.

I think it has to do with gas velocity, volume, and turbulence. This observation is based on DIY units, and overgassing CO2 guns.

My guess is, the majority of LDCs have an internal volume TOO LARGE for most springers, and the boot-liner baffles are shite.

 

I do not think that backpressure interacts with gun internals, as in PBs.

Here is an interesting device, note, it's not regulated, this is not silencer talk. Not a lot of volume, huge results.

https://www.wittmachine.net/sme-sound-mitigation-equipment-copy-25007929.html

 

Damn noisy un-tuned guns are another. I don't tune my honky R9, because it shoots so well as is.

"Shot great till I messed with it! DOH!" I'm (just barely, sometimes) smarter than that LOL!

This goes back to figuring out how I could be wrong, by paving over paradise.

FWIW, I dinged an egg thieving crow in the head at 40 yards Mon, with a 177 Supermag. NOT messing with the gun till it breaks.

Crouching, elbows on knees, mount side shoulder against door jamb, completely inside shooting through the crack. DING! 

 

IMHO, the real compound issues holding back LDC development on springers, are

the prevalence of threaded LDCs

lack of threading on springers

unwillingness to grub screw a nice barrel (I'm in this boat too)

maybe leaky barrel fit up, in the grub screw types

I can't speak to all the plastic muzzle crap at box stores, and they're hard to take off for comparison.


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 831
 
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr
Posted by: @pluric

I put a LDC on my HW97 and considered it a waste of money.

Which LDC?

 

Krale had an adapter for my HW97 that would allow for a screw on LDC. By the time I bought it and a LDC I was quite disappointed in the results. The 97 was backyard friendly in my opinion. I just wanted to see what it would do.

To refresh my memory I just took it in the back yard and shot it several time with and without the LDC. I have a decibel reader, not sure how to use it,  that would require reading the instructions. 😉 😀  So I set it on top of a garbage can and shot the gun with the muzzle close to it. Got a 76 with the LDC and a 79 without. Take those readings with a grain of salt as I was just watching as I'd shoot.

I was using a DonnyFL Tatsu LDC.

LDC
LDC a
LDC b

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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1121
 

Is 65 the ambient reading?


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 831
 

@gratewhitehuntr

I guess so. Lying there it would move a little up and down. I assume street traffic noise. Then jump when I shot near it.


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(@tripleguy)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 354
 

$80 for rifle, I wouldn't expect much. Boxed air rifle from WalMart or similar big box store, I wouldn't expect much. Can you massage some of them and can they be decent shooters? I don't know, never tried it but I suspect maybe? 

I get Walmarts position though. Cost to produce- maybe $40. Cost to Walmart - Maybe $50. Margin on sale - low. Now someone tries it, doesn't like it and returns it, what happens? It's not even worth repackaging and restocking and selling it as opened box or returned. Might as well throw it out and the retailer is out $50. I'm not saying I like the concept of a disposable society but that is what we have. It comes down to expectations. You can pay more for a decent and proper moderator. 


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(@stevep)
Joined: 8 months ago
Posts: 92
 

First, the 1200 fps advertised is likely with the lightest weight NON lead pellets they could find. Use something in the 8-10ish gr range and it's more likely in the 900ish range. Heavier pellets in high powered springers/gas rams just work better and will also help lessen the muzzle noise.

Second, Crosman triggers suck. Easy fix although $33 is a Charlie da Tuna GRT III trigger and yes, you can still get them. Makes a night and day difference in shooting.

Third, Crosman uses plastic pivot washers which also suck. You can make your own brass ones which will hold up longer and work better, just takes a bit of time with some brass washers. PDF file on how to make them is attached.

 

If you haven't already, check all 3 stock screws and make sure they're tight. I use Vibra-Tite VC-3 threadlocker but Blue Loctite also works. You might also check the barrel locking wedge area and make sure there's no gunk built up in it. Barrel don't latch right, accuracy takes a dump. 

You can also kill some of that mechanical noise aka the ear ringing you get shooting by stuffing the stock even if it's just an old tshirt or shop rags. I use PA pellet foam for that trick. Works well and lightweight. You won't totally get rid of it, but your ear will ring less.


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Alejandro O. Martinez
(@aom22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 167
Topic starter  
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

That's a nice story, but I can read, and, I'm not about to take "NO!" for an answer, not from a Wlamrat employee

Looked-up WalMart Store Return Policy ... hard to argue against written rules.
My only retort ... the rules were not posted, not indicated on the receipt - I was not informed by the Store.

Sales of the following items are final and may not be returned:   

  • Firearms & ammunition 
  • Airsoft & air guns, BB guns

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Alejandro O. Martinez
(@aom22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 167
Topic starter  
Posted by: @pluric

I put a LDC on my HW97 and considered it a waste of money.
Just sayn'. Noise reduction was nothing compared to a similar set up on a PCP. 

Here's a video of a moderator being installed on an HW97 ... good comparison - I think.
Just goes to show perception and reality are sometimes not the same.
When in doubt, instrumentation can provide a more certain conclusion.
The demonstration begins at 4:20-minute mark and is repeated at 7:40-minute because of technical limitations.

Airgun silencer (moderator) test with Weihrauch HW97


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 831
 
Posted by: @aom22
Posted by: @pluric

I put a LDC on my HW97 and considered it a waste of money.
Just sayn'. Noise reduction was nothing compared to a similar set up on a PCP. 

Here's a video of a moderator being installed on an HW97 ... good comparison.
Just goes to show perception and reality are sometimes in conflict.
When in doubt, instrumentation can provide a more certain conclusion.
The demonstration begins at 4:20-minute mark and is repeated at 7:40-minute because of technical limitations.

Airgun silencer (moderator) test with Weihrauch HW97

Yeah, his testing was just a LITTLE bit better than mine. 🤣  Switching it in my backyard I just couldn't hear much difference.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1121
 

@pluric

I suspect that your high ambient noise level undermined the meter's ability.

No one is accusing you of misrepresenting anything, just a poor signal to noise ratio in your location, at that particular time of day.

 

Looking at the "Tatsu" moderator, it appears to have 3 or 4 times more internal volume than ones I've been playing with.

 

I think I need a decibel meter, to take my contributions any further.


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 831
 
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

@pluric

No one is accusing you of misrepresenting anything, just a poor signal to noise ratio in your location, at that particular time of day.

 

 

WELL!, I personally have never been so offended. I'm taking my pellets and going home!!! 😉 🤣 

Part of it is I'm more of a PCP guy and when I have a noisy gun a LDC makes a night and day difference. On the springer, not so much. The thing is it's not even the barrel discharge. The springers make more mechanical noise that just doesn't change much.

 


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Alejandro O. Martinez
(@aom22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 167
Topic starter  
Posted by: @pluric

Part of it is I'm more of a PCP guy and when I have a noisy gun a LDC makes a night and day difference.
On the springer, not so much. The thing is it's not even the barrel discharge.
The springers make more mechanical noise that just doesn't change much.

I tend to agree.
Consider the noises made by a Red Ryder ... lots of mechanical sounds.
The "thonk" of the spring and piston that can be easily distinguished from the "tufft" of the air discharge.

In the following video, at approximately 25-seconds note of the db reading as the cocking-lever is brought-to-stop at full-cock.
The meter jumps-to 85.8.
Returning the lever to the locked position, the meter reads 80.9 at 32-seconds.

Proof There Is A Point In Fitting A Moderator To A Springer Air Rifle

One would think the sound of the spring & piston being released by the sear would be greater.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1121
 

In the case of the red ryder, I tried various muzzle devices, with little result.

The best noise reduction was made by

lining the BB reservoir/barrel shroud with greased cardboard

wrapping the barrel and barrel shroud in athletic tape

greasing the spring

Now it makes more of a "PUTT" than a "thwHONK"


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 831
 
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

In the case of the red ryder, I tried various muzzle devices, with little result.

The best noise reduction was made by

lining the BB reservoir/barrel shroud with greased cardboard

wrapping the barrel and barrel shroud in athletic tape

greasing the spring

Now it makes more of a "PUTT" than a "thwHONK"

I got the visual of that set up in my head. 🤣 So you have a tennis racquet handle with a trigger???

Not to mention it's a Red Ryder. You take your noise reduction seriously! 😉  


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(@garmic)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 37
 

The thing with Walmart like many other large chains is they negotiate themselves a pretty good deal. The suppliers will produce lower quality products to make up for the deal and Walmart, Lowes, Home depot etc. Or as in this case disassociate warranty and returns from the vendor. 
Crosman may find they will pay an even bigger price than they bargained for, especially if most who buy Crosman get them at Walmart.


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(@innavyvet71)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 2
 

We were in walmart yesterday and I was eyeballing a Ruger Airhawk then I remembered this thread and walked away. If I buy one I'll order online.


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(@stevep)
Joined: 8 months ago
Posts: 92
 

Anything I buy at Walmart, I'm gonna tinker with and only reason I'd buy something from them anyway, so no worries or hassles on a return. 

While you'll never get rid of it all, springer and gas ram noise can be reduced. I said reduced because no matter which, you'll never get rid of it all. Gas rams can be tuned at least to a point. Same stuff you'd do to a spring rifle, just minus the spring. I've also tinkered with a piece of Delrin at the end of the piston shaft to reduce that pinging noise from it smacking the piston. Light coat of 2 part quick dry poly epoxy on the slot in the piston the cocking arm rides in to cut down on the metal to metal noise the arm makes. Poor man's button job aka a piece of Mt Dew bottle superglued to the top of the piston to reduce the metal to metal noise when it slides against the top of the compression chamber. They all help a little along with a nicely fit seal and proper lube.

Synthetic stocks? They get stuffed. My favorite way is PA pellet foam cut to fit, coated with black rubberized silicone and shoved inside. The foam lets air in so it dries nice, then a final coat over the end, let it dry and put the buttpad back on. Lightweight yet muzzles the echo from firing. Sticky backed sound absorber, there's any number of kinds, to line the inside of the stock with, then drop the action back in. Helps cut down some on the action noise when shooting.

Know a good gunsmith, they can thread the end of the barrel for 1/2-20 UNF for a screw on LDC. There's also a guy on Ebay from Poland that custom makes barrel adapters to pretty much any size and color you might want, come with a thread protector cap, isn't crazy expensive and actually ships fairly fast. I have a couple of his adapters in black and yes, at least in my case, an LDC cut down on the muzzle noise and especially downrange. I had a friend shoot the rifle while I stood downrange in a very safe place and there was a quite noticeable difference. 

Lots of ways to do things, just gotta think outside the box...lol.


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