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Make sure you invest in quality scope mounts for magnum springers or gas rams  

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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 291
September 14, 2020 12:41:31  

I've had a B-square one piece scope mount on my RX-1 for 20 years.  I bought it with the gun, and it was already mounted.  Not sure about the scope.  I've never really looked over the scope either since the gun was laser accurate for so many years.  I was looking over this gun again recently, and noticed the rear ring saddle was loose.  Upon further inspection, it appears the scope smashed into the rings, scarring the scope.  I'm not sure if the scope was this way when it was mounted 20 years ago, or was a recent event.  In any case, immediately replaced b-square (these mounts have a low feedback rating anyway) with a bkl 260.  Used an inch pound tork wrench to apply 55 inch pounds per screw. 

My initial plan was to compare .177 Kodiak match 10.2gr to JSB monster 13.4gr pellets at 25 yards.  After looking at the new groups, it doesn't look like I'll be doing a comparison.  First few shots with the new scope mount setup didn't even hit the target.  Took a few revolutions of windage and elevation to hit paper.  The shotgun groups were a result of these revolutions.  Last two groups up top were four rounds each.  Due to time constraints, I couldn't commit more time.  However, I was very happy so far.  Need a new breech seal too.  

You can get away with cheapie rings with PCP's, but powerful rams or springers are another story.  This RX-1 is pushing .177 Kodiak match pellets at 1,000FPS.

 

2020 09 14 14 33 08 Window

 

IMG 20200914 075040
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 884
September 14, 2020 13:14:58  

I tried MANY things in the rings, contact cement and 2 sided tape included.

Some of them worked, for a while, but eventually I'd find myself shooting all squared up, like I was wearing armor.

What the... oh... scope slid back again! DOH!

 

3M Command Strips inside rings, never happened again.


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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
September 14, 2020 16:21:33  

I have never had a scope move in BLK (or copies) mounts on any of the spring/gas ram guns that I have owned (probably more than 25 guns).

I always use masking or electrical tape on the upper and lower saddles of the mount to eliminate the possibility of marking the scope. I have removed scopes from Eliminators, CM's, R1's, RX's, RWS 48/52, AA Pro Elite that shoot full power and never had any damage or movement.


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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
September 14, 2020 16:46:02  

I forgot to add that the majority of those groups are typical of Sonny's skill level, I'm betting the last one was at 25 feet! 🙂


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 513
September 16, 2020 10:17:54  
Posted by: @sonnysan

I've had a B-square one piece scope mount on my RX-1 for 20 years.  I bought it with the gun, and it was already mounted.  Not sure about the scope.  I've never really looked over the scope either since the gun was laser accurate for so many years.  I was looking over this gun again recently, and noticed the rear ring saddle was loose.  Upon further inspection, it appears the scope smashed into the rings, scarring the scope.  I'm not sure if the scope was this way when it was mounted 20 years ago, or was a recent event.  In any case, immediately replaced b-square (these mounts have a low feedback rating anyway) with a bkl 260.  Used an inch pound tork wrench to apply 55 inch pounds per screw. 

My initial plan was to compare .177 Kodiak match 10.2gr to JSB monster 13.4gr pellets at 25 yards.  After looking at the new groups, it doesn't look like I'll be doing a comparison.  First few shots with the new scope mount setup didn't even hit the target.  Took a few revolutions of windage and elevation to hit paper.  The shotgun groups were a result of these revolutions.  Last two groups up top were four rounds each.  Due to time constraints, I couldn't commit more time.  However, I was very happy so far.  Need a new breech seal too.  

You can get away with cheapie rings with PCP's, but powerful rams or springers are another story.  This RX-1 is pushing .177 Kodiak match pellets at 1,000FPS.

 

2020 09 14 14 33 08 Window

 

IMG 20200914 075040
IMG 20200914 075025

     

Sonny;

 

I hope those 55 in/lbs were on the base screws, not the ring screws. I don't know of any scope that can take more than 25-30 in/lbs to the scope tube.

In airguns, as in life there are two ways to deal with a problem: You either fight it, or you go with the flow.

ZR Mounts need only 30 in/lbs at the base to stay put with any scope in any piston gun. And repeatability, even for the OEM mounts is better than the groups you are showing.

Yes, always buy the best mounts you can.

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

HM


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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 291
September 16, 2020 14:37:54  

@hector-j-medina-g

55inch pounds to both base and ring screws.  I had got this # from the airgun boards about 15-18 years ago.  Absolutely no slippage or scope damage with the BKL 260 setup - this means the mounting rails and scope intself. 

Two top groups are very good for a ram at 25 yards.  The top right is a incredible, four shot group.  I only wish I didn't grandfather the b-square into the mix, marring the 66-RL in the process. 


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nced
 nced
(@nced)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 35
September 16, 2020 16:45:28  

@sonnysan

 

Hummmm....pretty interesting because I never exceeded 40 in/lbs torque on either of my BKL mounts and the "base screw hole basess" were deformed inside the bases..........

 

I never had any issues with scope tube damage when using the BKL one piece mount using 15 in/lbs torque on the top strap screws, however I did have scope tube denting using 15 in/lbs of top strap screw torque with the two piece BKL mounts and their two narrow straps per saddle. Here are a couple scope tubes with the distinctive "double dents"............

 

LOL....here the relatively light weight Vortex Diamondback scope that slipped using only 10 in/lbs of torque, but 15 in/lbs torque did the damage in the above pic...........

I was able to stop scope tube creep in the rings of the BKL 1 piece mount by lining the rings with cloth electrical friction tape, however iven torquing the base screws to 40 in/lbs (5 in/lbs above max recommended) I didn't stop the scope base from slipping on degreased HW receiver dovetails.........

 

Anywhoo.......the BKL web site recommended these scope mount torque specs............

Notice that BKL doesn't even list torque specs for the top strap screws, stating "When the oval shape of the ring becomes a circle around the scope tube and no gap is seen between inside diameter of the ring and the outside diameter of the scope tube." LOL, that doesn't seem like a very precise torque spec to me!

 

 


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 513
September 17, 2020 17:50:48  

I am sure that Sonny's torque wrench is measuring in other units.

55 in-lbs is enough to deform the mechanism tubes in most guns.

Anyway, to each his own.

 

 

 

 

HM


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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 291
September 17, 2020 18:19:31  

Writeup from 2006.  Inch pound torque wrench is in the exact same position:

https://sonnysan.blogspot.com/search?q=scope

 

 


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
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September 17, 2020 19:42:40  

@sonnysan

Sonny, MOST manufacturers will limit the torque applied to their tubes to not more than 25 in-lbs. This are just TWO examples, but most manufacturers will be around the same value:

https://sightronusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/RIFLESCOPE-MANUAL.pdf

Picatinny bases MAY take up to 55 and even 75 in-lbs, but if you do that to an HW95, you WILL deform the tube.

Realities are:

If your scope rings need more than 15-20 in-lbs to hold the scope in place, MOST probably, the area of contact is not enough. Rings should be trued (at least the lower halves), and then much lighter torques will hold the scopes in their place.

If the bases slip even with 35 in-lbs, then MOST probably, the dovetail of the base/bases has little surface contact with the dovetail on the rail. This may be due to 2 different things:

a) Improper angle, there are 45° and 60° dovetails, if the bases and the rails do not match well, then the contact is only in a line along the rail/grooves, not on a surface, and that will not give sufficient friction to stop the assembly from moving on the rifle.

b) Too shallow a groove/rail. 

Still, as I said before, to each his own.


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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 291
September 17, 2020 20:12:50  

They are mounting on a firearm.  Different animal.  PCP is also a different animal.  I bet picatinny rails have better gripping force, requiring less inch pounds of force too.  I'm sure these videos will work wonderfully on either gun.  However, anything over 18fpe will require more inch pounds to a springer/ram screws.  I have installed many scopes on Theoben dampa mounts and BKL 260's with no tape inside the rings.  When I have taken these scopes off, the tubes look just like before I mounted them.  I'm sure you will have a different experience with different and/or cheaper mounts. 

To each their own, but unless I discover crushed scope tubes or scarring in any way, I'm sticking to the process.  If I didn't get complacent with the junky B-square mount, and stuck to the old adage, "if it is not broke, don't fix it", this thread would of never existed. 


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 513
September 18, 2020 10:02:51  

Sonny;

I have helped more than a few shooters to get their scopes repaired/replaced when using BKL mounts and using "cowboy tight" torques.

I have mounted over a hundred scopes in D54's that yield 22- 24 ft-lbs on a sled system that kicks THREE times as much as any fixed stock gun.

I have also seen more than a few scopes with ruined controls due to over-tightening.

The TYPE of gun has NOTHING to do with the resistance of the scope's tube and the tolerances/leeways that are allowed inside the scopes. If you think that the scope knows what type of gun it is being mounted on, and therefore changes its internal characteristics, you are expecting too much of the scope.

TWO well respected manufacturers  (and I could add Kahles as a third one) have put out SOLID, FACTUAL, information about how to do it and how much torque the scope tubes can take. If you want to disagree with them, fine. BUT if you want to PUBLISH information that exceeds manufacturer's recommendations, then MAKE SURE YOU TELL YOUR READERS THAT YOU ARE ADVISING SOMETHING THAT VOIDS ALL WARRANTIES. That is the responsible thing to do, and I am sure you are a responsible person.

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM


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Quagmire
(@quagmire)
Joined: 2 days ago
Posts: 1
September 21, 2020 08:48:01  

While I've only been into airguns a few years, I've learned from years of firearm ownership that going the cheap route on rings and mounts is never a good idea. It's something I've taken with me into the airgun hobby. It's just not worth the trouble/drama to save a few bucks. I'll gladly fork over the extra cash to eliminate a common problem.


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nced
 nced
(@nced)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 35
September 21, 2020 12:13:56  

@hector-j-medina-g

Hector, when my Voretx Diamondback developed a "wandering zero" it was replaced with a warning not to use excess screw torque because the tube was dented.

Here is a pic of the as returned returned scope............

I called Vortex and explained to the "tech guy" that I had never exceeded 15in/lbs of torque tightening the top straps of my BKL two piece mount, to which I was told by the "tech guy" not to exceed 11-13 in/lbs.

Here is a pic of my Torque driver...........

I initially used a 10 in/lb torque with the BKL, however the scope slipped like this which is why I increased the torque to 15 in/lbs..................

 

Anywhoo.......the point of all this is that the geometry of the scope mount will affect the allowed screw torque. I also found that the cheap Weaver QuadLock rings mounted to a Picatinny to dovetail adapter held scopes just fine using only 12 in/lbs torque and dudn't dent my scope tubes if I used 15 in/lbs torque even though the QuadLock also had narrow top straps. I suspect that this has something to do with the angled clamping.............


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
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September 21, 2020 14:51:17  

@nced

Problem with torque wrenches is that they can be off by 10% easily. Serious labs have special torque wrenches and those get calibrated every month or two.

Current electronic strain-gauge based ones seem to hold promise, but they are not mainstream yet.

IIRC, when we discussed this a few years ago, one of the conclusions was that PROBABLY, there had been an error in where was the pointer of the torque wrench? And so, what you THOUGHT was 15 in-lbs in reality wasn't?

It doesn't really matter, what matters is that more and more scope manufacturers are putting specific advise in their materials, shooters SHOULD read the materials that come with the scope and abide by those recommendations, or risk being "brushed off" by some guy in the tech dept. that has had a bad hair day and is looking for someone to take it off on.

There are many ways to skin a cat (or a squirrel for that), some are better to some types of squirrels than others. The problem of the recoiling (and vibrating) springer has been solved by the ZR mount. Whether you like them or not is a different story, what is a scientific and technical, measurable fact is that the ZR mounts "Float" the scope while the rifle is completing its shot cycle, and therefore the scope does not suffer the effects of the recoil, nor of the vibrations (which seem to be the real culprit in those cases where a scope does not hold zero anymore.

People can disagree, but accelerometers and vibrational test equipment says this is so. Some may complain about "repeatability" for the OEM ZR Mounts, but then there are processes to accurize them.

Whether it is worth $140 (the price of an Accurized ZR Mount) to be absolutely sure that your scope is not going to fail on account of your rifle's recoil, or not, that is up to each shooter.

As the old adage says: you can take a horse to the water . . .

 

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

 

HM


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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
September 21, 2020 16:52:53  

You guys are really making more of this than is required in real life!!

I’ve never used a torque wrench on a scope and have never damaged one or had one slip. 
A little bit of common sense goes a long way with thing like this. 


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nced
 nced
(@nced)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 35
September 21, 2020 17:14:13  

@hector-j-medina-g

 

"can be off by 10% easily"

OK, then my 15 in/lb reading could have been 16.5 in/lbs. 🙂

 

"what you THOUGHT was 15 in-lbs in reality wasn't?"

You're correct because I was using the "top white edge" of the pointer instead of the "red line" which less than 10 in/lbs so the scope slipped. After adjusting the driver to 15 in/lbs (or perhaps 16.5 in/lbs)  the scope tube was dented using the two piece BKL mount with the narrow top straps. LOL, the Diamondback wasn't the only scope tube damaged using 15 in/lbs (or 16.5 in/lbs) of screw torque, here is the tube of a cheap CenterPoint that was also showing "narrow double dents" from the BKL top straps torqued to 15 in/lbs (or perhaps 16.5 in/lbs). LOL....using the exact same torque driver, after ditching the two piece BKLs I had no further scope tube damage using a 15 in/lbs (or perhaps 16.5 in/lbs) on the Diamondback replacement or any other scope.

 

"SHOULD read the materials that come with the scope and abide by those recommendations"

LOL, guilty as charged because I've always followed the recommendations of the mount............

Problem with the BKL mounts is that the base screw torque spec was listed at 35 in/lbs max, however the only "spec" for the top strap screws was an ambiguous "ring becomes a circle around the scope tube"..........

"Whether it is worth $140 (the price of an Accurized ZR Mount) to be absolutely sure that your scope is not going to fail on account of your rifle's recoil,"

 

 

"The problem of the recoiling (and vibrating) springer has been solved by the ZR mount."

Hummm, the "ZR Mount" appears to be a "clunky" mount that puts the scope too high above the bore judging by this pic.............

When they first came out I did a search on reviews and found that there were quite a few posts that they weren't what its cracked up to be but theres a fix.

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/diana-bullseye-zr-aint-what-its-cracked-up-to-be-but-theres-a-fix/

and

"Some may complain about "repeatability" for the OEM ZR Mounts, but then there are processes to accurize them".

Not exactly what I'm wanting for a scope mount on my HW95!

 

"Whether it is worth $140 (the price of an Accurized ZR Mount) to be absolutely sure that your scope is not going to fail on account of your rifle's recoil,"

I'm guessing that it takes a LOT of work to turn a $60 mount into $140 which more than doubles the price! I personally don't have an issue to send my scopes to "customer service" every few years IF NEEDED, however, as you said, "that is up to each shooter."

 

 

 

 


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