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Jestes
(@jestes)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 7
September 23, 2020 20:45:50  

Looking for advice and/or experience.  Got my prized HW 55t out and the seals are gone. I have to do something nice for it because it's birthday is this year. It's 50 years old! 

I thought about installing a Vortek kit and read a couple of posts about Maccari parts. I found a HW55 tune kit on his site at about the same price. Any advice on which way to go? Not looking for power but a smooth shot cycle. Back in the day l shot a few informal target competitions and at 10 meters it was easy to shoot 1 hole groups.

20200923 182628

 

Suggestions?

 


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1000
September 23, 2020 21:06:07  

what you might find is you have a leather piston seal, at least that is what T.W. Chambers 

so Vortek does have a kit in a few sizes, i'm guess yours is 25mm, just a guess 

the spring looks like a spring that was used only in that rifle and that is what it said at TWC 

so i would lean at factory parts but change the seal to modern material 

but you will have decide what you what 

the seal is more then likely dry as a bone and some and could come back to life with a little soaking 

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?806457-Best-lube-for-leather-Piston-seal

just some sizing info 

https://www.mundilar.net/en/replacement-parts-rifles/air-rifles-weihrauch-replacement-parts/weihrauch-mainspring-75j-for-hw50-hw55-hw99s.html

https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/11/weihrauchs-hw55sf-part-4/

 


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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 312
September 23, 2020 21:49:47  

JM products are top shelf.  I've never shot a vortek tuned gun, so someone with both kits can offer you their subjective opinion.  Have venom kits, but those push the limits of the platform and were double or more in terms of price. 

If I had to purchase another tune kit right now it would be a JM.  I have his kits in guns from the 90's that still shoot incredibly well.  I prefer gas rams (or spring pistons), but the JM kits have stood the test of time in my springers.  Have been very impressed with JM tune kit performance all these years.    


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1000
September 24, 2020 04:32:15  

but the the HW55's were soft shooting rifles in the 650 to 700 FPS range 

they don't need anything special a new spring if you must, a new breech seal and a new piston seal be it leather or synthetic and some lube of your choice 

in reality it doesn't make any difference to me but taking a old rifle such as the 55 and do something to it that the factory did not, seems a bit foolish 

but that just my opinion 


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airmojo
(@airmojo)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 247
September 24, 2020 06:16:22  

I always go to Jim Maccari at Air Rifle Headquarters first... he's been making and selling top shelf products for years, and I have installed various kits in several of my spring piston air rifles over the years, and I'm totally satisfied.

He can probably tell you what type of seal the rifle takes, based on the serial number.

I do not have any experience with Vortec because I never had to go there for anything.

 


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Airguntunes
(@scottblair)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 89
September 24, 2020 08:33:42  

I have used both kits. I don't like the vortex kits. Too harsh of a firing cycle for my likings.

JM kits all the way!!!


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nced
 nced
(@nced)
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 38
September 24, 2020 10:28:02  
Posted by: @jestes

Looking for advice and/or experience.  Got my prized HW 55t out and the seals are gone. I have to do something nice for it because it's birthday is this year. It's 50 years old! 

I thought about installing a Vortek kit and read a couple of posts about Maccari parts. I found a HW55 tune kit on his site at about the same price. Any advice on which way to go? Not looking for power but a smooth shot cycle. Back in the day l shot a few informal target competitions and at 10 meters it was easy to shoot 1 hole groups.

20200923 182628

 

Suggestions?

 

I've used Maccari kits and springs for a few decades.The very first tune kit I bought a couple decades ago from JM was for my .177 HW35 as recommended by a "tech guy" at Beeman when they still sold "airgun stuff". The next JM kitI bought was a "soft spring kit" for my .177 Beeman R10 and I literally tested the spring life. When first installed the JM kit was shooting 7.9 grain pellets at 910fps, however after 20,000 shots (counted empty pellet tins and boxes) the 7.9 grain velocity was still 900fps (insignificant difference). 

A while back I I bought an early Vortek PG2 kit (the spring ends were unclosed) and the initial velocity of a 7.9 grain CPL from my .177 R9 was a "too high for me" 960fps. Initially I replaced the thick heavy steel PG2 top hat with a lighter home turned steel top hat and the 7.9 grain velocity was reduced to a "better for me" 910fps. I shot this setup for about 2500 shots (two boxes of CPLs) before noticing a change in my trajectory and the chrony showed that the velocity had dropped about 70fps to 880fps. I then replaced the home turned top hat with the origional thick heavy Vortek top hat and the cpl velocity returned to 910fps, however before finishing even one case of CPLs (about 4500 shots) the CPL velocity had once again dropped to 880 fps which was a 70fps drop in less than six months. The R9 also had the "old design" cocking shoe that slid on a steel piston liner but the "plastic" PG2 kit liner that replaced the factory liner was grooved/shaved by the foot of the cocking shoe.........

The "outer guide issue" was solved by grinding/smoothing the foot of the several year old R9 cocking shoe at the first "velocity reduction tear down" and the wearing away of the plastic stopped.

A couple years later I noticed that the springs pictured on the Vortek web site has closed spring ends so I tried out a bare spring, lathe turned a Delrin spring guide and top hat, installed the kit and had a really nice shot cycle with a CPL velocity of 900fps............

This "home tune" worked well for about two months (about 2500 shots) and a difference in the pellet trajectory was noticed. Sure enough the spring had sagged reducing the velocity 20fps in less than 2 months.

I mentioned my experience to a couple piston class field target shooters and they had the same experience as I with the PG2 kit (worked well for a couple thousand shots, then "died quickly") so I guessed that the issue was the spring metallurgy used. That was several years ago and I don't know if the current offerings are "more durable" but I've been using ARH springs for my home tunes since.

 


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MDriskill
(@mdriskill)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 188
September 24, 2020 12:38:29  

Well I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon here - have never used a Vortek kit, but have installed Jim's kits in a half dozen HW 55's with uniformly great results. Definitely go for the full kit with spring, guide, lubes, etc., for your baby (and a lovely baby it is, too!).

The HW 55 used the very same receiver tube as the classic old HW 50 sporter (which is MUCH diff from today's "HW 50," née HW 99), but with a weaker spring to bring the velocity down to the typical target rifle low-600's FPS neighborhood. The HW 50 used a stouter spring for high-600's performance. A very common upgrade back in the day, especially with Beeman, was to use the 50 spring in the 55.

The 55 is still a very sweet shooter with this bit of extra power. I kinda prefer it to be honest, seems "quicker" and crisper to me. In my experience JM's springs are close to this higher power level and with the fitted guide etc. are VERY nice to shoot.

For what it's worth, this ancient thread has a quick velocity comparison I did a loooooong time ago...

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/americanvintageairguns/hw-55-velocity-t1280.html

As for seals, as marflow mentioned the OEM leather piston seal can be re-conditioned pretty easily. If a problem, there are replacements available, and adapters to use plastic seals (the old 50 and 55 use the same 25mm seal as the HW 30/R7 series).

Also check the breech seal. The old HW 50 used the same drop-in plastic seal as modern Weihrauchs, but the 55 has the breech machined for a very close fit, and uses a leather seal that protrudes only a tiny amount. It may also need a good oiling. You can use a modern plastic breech seal to replace it, BUT the seal's recess in the breech block is different on the 55, and you will have to trim the rear of a plastic seal to get the proper fit.


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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
Member of Trade
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 143
September 24, 2020 19:00:47  

Understanding the Mechanics and Physical material situation and most of the wondering will be more in focus to make your own decisions about.

 

In most spring piston air rifles, the factory spring is wound to a diameter that when compressed just fits within the confines of pistons inner bore.

In the VT PG2 kits or others that have there supplied spring CONTAINED WITHIN an outer sleeve .. that spring generally will be WOUND SMALLER so it fits the tube and tube fits inside the piston.  * If a piston is excessive in I.D. there are instances where a sleeved spring or sleeved piston can be done w.o changing spring specs.

 

What is a coil spring ? .... it is a SINGLE STRAND of round spring wire that is wound radially to make it a Coil Spring.  The amount of coils wound within a specific length ( Coil count ) and the STROKE distance spring is required to compress said spring is part of the engineering that keep the total length of the spring wire and coils created long as practical so coils don't go into coil bind before compression stroke ceases.

SMALLER DIAMETER A GIVEN WIRE SIZE IS WOUND INTO COILS and at a coil count that allows the compression stroke w/o binding, LESS WIRE LENGTH will be used to make the spring.

 

So where does that leave us ?     Spring wire when coiled is nothing more than a radial torsion bar with wire being twisted down its length as coils compress and expand.

USE LESS WIRE to make the spring and operate it under the same compression stroke the torsional twist of the wire INCREASES at a ratio directly proportionate to the % less of wire length used when compared to a Larger wound spring of the same working stroke.

 

This is WHY VT springs can sack out quickly and have shorter service life.  While a spring wire torsional twisted harder releases it's energy SNAPPIER !! it simply can do that for very long before metal fatigue sets in and spring either simply sacks out or ultimately fails. 

 

 

This is not intended to throw any product or manufacturer under a bus .... Knowledge is power, more you understand, better can one make choices.


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boscoebrea
(@boscoebrea)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 273
September 24, 2020 19:22:56  

  Well there you go,I saw an interesting show on how coil springs are made,it ain't easy to do and few companies  do it.

   I also go JM all the way,that said I do have a Vortek kit installed in my R-7....It is ok...


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 542
September 25, 2020 09:18:26  
Posted by: @marflow

what you might find is you have a leather piston seal, at least that is what T.W. Chambers 

so Vortek does have a kit in a few sizes, i'm guess yours is 25mm, just a guess 

the spring looks like a spring that was used only in that rifle and that is what it said at TWC 

so i would lean at factory parts but change the seal to modern material 

but you will have decide what you what 

the seal is more then likely dry as a bone and some and could come back to life with a little soaking 

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?806457-Best-lube-for-leather-Piston-seal

just some sizing info 

https://www.mundilar.net/en/replacement-parts-rifles/air-rifles-weihrauch-replacement-parts/weihrauch-mainspring-75j-for-hw50-hw55-hw99s.html

https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/11/weihrauchs-hw55sf-part-4/

 

Jestes.-

 

More than suggestion, a  question: ¿How much do you shoot that gun?

If you are like NCED, or me, that shoots his gun a LOT, then go to a DURABLE spring, like JM's or Titan's.

If you do not shoot it much, then you can use Vortek to SOME advantage, in the sense that, while the cycle is snappier and  the kits do develop more power, they will only do so for a limited number of shots. Now, don't confuse snappier with harsher. Vortek kits are smooth shooting and quieter. BUT they will not last long under intensive use.

HOW MUCH you shoot is important, then because for a spring life of 4-5000 shots (low power kits), it may mean 10 years if you shoot a few matches every year, or it may mean 1 year, if you shoot a little bit every day.

Even in low powered guns, if they had a leather seal, part of the MV was produced by combustion, so a synthetic seal kit, WITH THE SAME OEM spring will produce a bit less energy. Now, for paper punching, you only need to ensure 450-500 fps MV to get clean holes at 10 M, so as long as you are there, you will not have problems with offhand shooting at 10 meters.

HTH

 

 

 

 

 

 

HM

 


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Jestes
(@jestes)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 7
September 25, 2020 10:15:54  

Thanks Hector. No l do not shoot th HW55 very much at all. It probably on has 2-3 tins of pellets through it. When just shooting targets I mostly use my 55 or my FWB 300.

Thanks for all of your advise. I will most likely use the Maccari parts because I'm more interested in a smooth shot cycle. I will try and revive the breach seal since it is leather. Hopefully it comes out in one piece. 


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jtiver
(@jtiver)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 11
September 26, 2020 09:37:20  

 Well, I put a VorteK pg2 kit in one of my R7's about 15,000 shots ago and it is as smooth as ever with no power loss! Put a pg3 kit in my other R7 last year that had Macarri's kit installed and for me there's no comparison. VorteK all the way. Just my opinion.


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stevevines
(@stevevines)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 203
September 26, 2020 10:14:01  

Very interesting thread, especially Mr. Motorhead's response - I feel like I learned something.

I've had mixed results with Vortek kits. The smoothest shot cycle I ever felt in my TX was with a Vortek PG2 kit, but it lasted less than 2000 rounds before the velocity started dropping, requiring another spacer or two under the top hat. That got old quick. I subsequently had Mr. Dave Slade tune the MK1 Lefty TX - not sure what parts he used, but it shoots smooth, just under 12 fp, and the velocity remains consistant.

However my TO5 Panther 34 was transformed by a PG2 kit. It has settled just a little since installed several years ago, but still shoots close to 17.5 fp, not too shabby.

 

 

 


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straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 254
September 26, 2020 15:51:34  

After reading this post, I kind of have a sinking feeling. Earlier in the year I bought a new HW50s .177 & an HW57 .22. I installed Vortek PG3 kits in both. The 50 got the HO & the 57, the SHO. I got immediate consistent results with both and after only a hundred shots or so, they are still at the same FPE. The 50 averages 11.5 FPE.

57 is 16.46 FPE with RWS Superdomes only, which general consensus dictates this will be its pellet of choice. I don't have much trigger time on either for a host of current reasons but I would like to think I got it right the first time. There will be a time when I can actually put the guns through their paces.

My only reasoning for going Vortek vs ARH was that Vortek was more personally engaging whereas ARH seemed distant, although his reputation clearly speaks for itself on the forums. Also, Vortek gave me an idea of what to expect with the PG3's and he was close to spot on. These have the "adjustable"  tophats.

I recently placed a special order with AOA for another HW50s in .20 and sequentially bought another SHO PG3 for it. This latest kit has the Delrin (?) tophat, whereas the first two were steel. When I asked Vortek about the difference, he remarked that I must have bought the first two a substantial time ago and the Delrin kit was somehow better. Time is relative and I know if I looked, it was only 5 months or less. This is the most recent SHO kit (w/seal) for the .20 50 that is due to arrive on this Wednesday:

IMG 0009

If the overall consensus of this post is correct then I went the wrong direction? I will add that although I don't have much trigger time, both guns are smooth shooters.


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boscoebrea
(@boscoebrea)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 273
September 26, 2020 16:46:27  

You did not go wrong,it's all good.Now please buy the JM kit and compare them yourself and report back.

 Jim's been doing this a long time,he has earned his rest time,years ago I talked to him and found him to be great,another thing,there will always be people that are not happy and "find a bone to pick".this type of person makes it hard on the guys that have to listen to it.You may have a hundred people that praise you and then one will criticize you and nothing will please them...and that my friends is  why one very negative person can take some of the joy out of trying to help others.


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 608
September 26, 2020 17:10:18  

Vortek has been dropping the ball lately. Many of my guns have Vortek kits in them and they offer a great product when they are QC inspected to fit as they should. Thats All I have to say about that. 


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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
Member of Trade
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 143
September 27, 2020 11:01:51  
Posted by: @jtiver

 Well, I put a VorteK pg2 kit in one of my R7's about 15,000 shots ago and it is as smooth as ever with no power loss! Put a pg3 kit in my other R7 last year that had Macarri's kit installed and for me there's no comparison. VorteK all the way. Just my opinion.

The HW30 / R7 is one of those rifles that have a large spring cavity and small spring from the factory ... NO spring diameter change required with a VT kit in these model guns.

Thus the spring is not over worked ...

 

 

FYI ....

 


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jtiver
(@jtiver)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 11
September 27, 2020 17:02:26  

Makes sense MH, thanks.


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EMrider
(@emrider)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 13
September 30, 2020 11:44:28  

I’ve tried several Vortek and JM kits in my springers.  Like others, I prefer the milder shooting characteristics of the JM kits.  


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straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 254
September 30, 2020 12:19:58  
Posted by: @boscoebrea

You did not go wrong,it's all good.Now please buy the JM kit and compare them yourself and report back.

That sounds logical.

I just did some shopping at ARH. Bought the New Hornet XLD R6-HW99-HW50's- HW57 Kit for the HW 50S .20 that arrived yesterday...a few seals, extra XLD spring and one for my P1 project. It'll be a while before I have any real input to this thread but I'll get there.


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two70windude
(@two70windude)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 58
October 1, 2020 01:54:51  

On another forum I’ve heard a few singing the virtues of vortek. What confuses me is that they’re using a higher power spring (vs OEM) yet saying how “smooth” it is... this is just a spring too, not a kit with a sleeve... anyway...  I’ve only ever bought ARH springs and seals and they’ve held up great.  Only issue so far was when I damaged one due to a dumb oversight right after I installed it.

I will be buying a vortek spring here soon just for some fun testing in one gun and see what happens. I’ll post my results whenever I get around to it.

For me it’s more about the overall tune that makes a difference for me rather then just the OEM springs vs JM. I will say I’m fond on the square wire spring so far. 


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