Looking for help with Hammerli co2 pistol valves (Master, Single)

the reality is there are no parts other than in someone's dusty box on a shelf 

all the leftover parts were lost in the Houston hurricane 2 years back in the flooding 

i sent the Master owners manual over to here to keep safe for other but the diagram is going to be hard to see what the parts look like but maybe 

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/hammerli/hammerli-co2-pistols-manual/

it is about all i can do to help, if is missing a part you have to make it and not knowing the right sizing is going to make it very hard 

if the pistols were easy to take apart to test new hand made parts that would be one thing but these are not that and i see no ball in the diagrams 

you seem to know more than most of us, i have a master but never had one opened up 

the pictures at the bottom are of a pistol that Simons owns in Spain that he was working on they look different from yours 

Vince good luck and keep us posted 

take care 

mike

I've successfully resealed a Single and a Master, and unsuccessfully resealed another Master. 

As I understand it, the ball-type valve replaced the earlier valve design. I'll attach schematics of both valves, in hopes they provide some insight helpful to you. Good luck.

Vince,  I took a pic of the ball-valve diagram but Ron beat me on posting it.  From your pic' it appears you may have an O-ring for a valve seat, vs the square section original which likely stays in place better.

Good luck!

Don R.

Thank you all for the replies!

The ball valve picture is exactly what I was looking for, thank you!  There might not be anything missing after all, and I was just assembling things in the wrong locations.  The white piece (seat) in my picture does have a square cross section, and after some very careful alignment fit into the location shown in the picture.  I had that in the wrong spot before.  Now it appears the internal threads in the outer valve body are damaged, preventing me from screwing the retainer (V3A012) down far enough.  I'll take that problem over missing pieces any day!  

Mike, you might want to add that ball valve picture to your Hammerli picture archive, if you can.  Hopefully I won't be the last person interested in this. 

Thanks again, everyone!  I will keep you posted.

 Vince

Hello again

I got the threads cleaned up in short order, and realized that the aluminum bar stock I was using as a driver wasn't up to the task.  I will have to go get a screwdriver and grind out the blade to make a proper driver.  

But in the meantime, I have another piece of Hammerli exotica to share.  Has anyone ever seen a "push to pierce" 8g co2 cap before?  Pushing on the button on the outside of the cap extends the rod you can see in the middle on the inside.  The curve of the inside certainly hints that the rod is not intended to pierce the co2 cart, but maybe push on its round end.  Any ideas?  

Thanks again,

Vince

One more question and a hint.

The questions relates to manual pages for the later Masters.  The layout and operation of the trigger and its mating hammer on this model is different from the earlier ones.  Could anyone with a manual from the later guns also scan the cross section picture, and the picture explaining the trigger adjustment screws?  They would be good additions to the picture archive as well.

Just to share, the gun when I received it had the ball valve seat installed in front of the hammer spring, above the loader release arm(!).  Not having a picture from which to work, I attempted to make it work with that piece there.  Eventually I took the whole gun apart, and just started building following what made sense instead of where the parts had shown up.  

The hint regards rehabilitating the seals of a gun that has just started to leak.  I'd read in Tom Gaylord's blog about Bar's Leaks brand Transmission Stop Leak concentrate.  He swore up and down about it helping co2 guns that leak a little.  My Single was at that stage, and I figured I didn't have anything to lose, so I'd give it a try.  I used a drinking straw as a dipper, and dropped a good 10 drops into the gun, and loaded a cart.  It did cough and sputter, but after a couple of dry shots, the leak stopped.  Completely.  It did take dry firing the better part of a cart to spit all the extra fluid out.  But, the gun is back to holding indefinitely.  

So, pistolero, you might want to considering giving that a whirl in your unsuccessfully sealed Master.  

Happy shooting!

Vince

well i will try to get the ball valve schematic added and on the rear cap, i was alway thinking that the valve pierced the cylinder not the cap and both schematic show that 

now the cap on the Master can be adjusted to dump the co2 at a level deem to low for competition shooting 

now the later style Master manual, there has to be one out there but none have come forward, question on the Hammerli co2 pistols come up here a few times a year and i have been the only one that had a manual of any kind and i had done a scan to my computer and was sending copies to to people from New Zealand, Spain the UK and decided  to put it on Garvin's forum for storage and hell i'm 69 my warranty is up, and save for people to get easier 

Pistolero do you have the rest of the manual from the ball valve diagram you posted or was that just one page you saved 

your trigger adjustment looks to be here in this post just move down the page

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/grantthekiwisairgunforum/hammerli-single-pistol-info-t3694.html

i'll keep looking for this and that, it would be better if we could collect this info and store it in one place but that's not easy i guess

Well, Mike, thanks for trying!

On the cap, my understanding is the same as yours.. I guess bottom line, I don't think this cap goes to a Master or Single at all.  And while looking at pictures of other Hammerli guns, I can't find it anywhere. Just another mystery. 

Here are pictures of the trigger and hammer from this gun. It is completely different from the one in the documentation. Thankfully the trigger operates very well, so I don't *need* to know what screw adjusts what, but it would be nice. 

Thanks! 

I don't own or plan to own a Hammerli but post like this are neat.

David Enoch

so i went out and said hello to my Master pistol and i seem to have the later model because of the info that has been found just in this post and that's good 

and the more we dig the more i get confused 

for one thing i have no knowledge of is how many of these co2 pistols use the same parts or how many are interchangeable and then there is the fact could at some point in the pistols life, that someone with knowledge could have exchanged parts as needed and with that confusing the owner 30 years later 

and with all of that uncertainty i get confused and only know what i can see and that is when i visit my stored Master pistol 

i know a little about a lot but an expert on none 

mike

Great info.  Thank you everyone.  The manual that marflow liked to shows a bulk fill endcap.  Anyone have one? 

But, Mike, isn't that part of the fun?  (I ask tongue in cheek.)

Based on being inside the two I've been in, I'm pretty sure that the combination of the hammer and trigger could be swapped between a new style and old style gun.  One definitely couldn't use an older trigger with a newer hammer, or vice versa.  The old trigger's sear contacts the hammer, directly releasing it.  The newer trigger's sear releases the little rocker that captures the hammer.  Or at least that's my take on it.  It is actually a pretty neat design.

And the two valves seem to be externally similar, so they could probably be swapped as well.  From an engineering perspective, it would be easier and cheaper to upgrade just a component group (trigger internals, valve internals) of the gun than the whole gun.  Less machining to change.  But without actually trying to swap component groups, I don't know for sure.  And I'm hesitant to take apart a working gun just for that knowledge!  At a fundamental level, if the gun works, the parts must all be right, right?

The only external hint between versions I can think of is the trigger adjustment area.  Where the older version has one larger screw with the other screws in front of the trigger, the newer versions has only smaller adjustment screws.  

i agree on the taking apart a working gun, again these are nut easy to work on without knowledge and that is hard to get with disassembly 

i have been looking for a dead Single CHEAP to do some practice on but i'm getting to old and poor for that idea so that idea has passed 

but you have to learn, have the guts to jump in and try but with the number one rule, don't harm the patient 

you also have to make tools that were used for working on the pistols 

i have been working on my Giss pistols model 6's  and after awhile they are not mystifying, the same could be said about anything and i guess the hammerli co2  pistols are the same 

but the Hammerli pistols lack parts, good pictures of the parts or any video tutelage and for a backyard mechanic it is hard, also if they were 50 buck pistols that would make that easier 

it has been a good thread i alway learn something, now if the old mind will remember is another story 

take care 

mike

Thanks, Mike, this thread has definitely been fun.

I found that the o-ring size on the valve body is a commonly available Crosman size, so that's one more problem solved.  I'm pretty sure the little oring on the front of the valve is similar to a probe seal I've seen before too.  Wouldn't it be great if it turned out all the external orings were that easy to source!  

If I get this gun working, I'll put out another thread with the tools I had to make, and what I've learned along the way.  I still hope @pistolero or @oldair see their way clear to providing more pages from the later Master manual (pretty please?).  

Be well, and happy shooting!

Vince

To finish the story of Master #061477:

I did get the valve back together and functioning, thanks to that diagram.  Those two seals on the outside of the valve body turn out to be replacable with good old Crosman part number 150-54.  I used the 12 g co2 cap and the coil spring that positions the cart from my other Master, and have to say, the gun works really well.  That "different" trigger is really rather amazing.  It is incredibly light and still precises.  I know, maybe "I just need to get out more", as they say.  I never played with the adjustment of my other Master, so maybe it can be made as light and precise.  I'm sure I'll never mess with it, though.

I thought I'd add a picture of the gun, and the tools I had to make to do the work on the gun.

The 4mm AL rod with a 2 mm wire centered into it with a tape shim was great for helping push out the valve, and for centering the valve probe into the appropriate position when reinserting it. To remove the valve body I used 3/4" steel stock, grinding the tip to less than 2.4mm for a height of 2mm. I did have to file the width of the steel down a little, as the tube itself is 3/4".  To remove and adjust the valve core, I used a 5/16" screwdriver, cutting a little more than 4.5mm out of the middle of the blade to straddle the piercing pin.

The last "tool" is the barrel from a Daisy 1894. I didn't need that when I was working on the valve, but I had to disassemble most of the gun, including the hammer. The hammer is kept in only with the two cocking screws, so one needs to push against the hammer while removing them. The muzzle end of the barrel is great for distributing that load. Almost more importantly, when reassembling, one needs to keep the hammer spring straight while compressing it. The AL rod from the muzzle end can pass through the 1894 barrel, so the AL rod keeps the spring straight, while the barrel pushes on the rear of the hammer from the other end.  Everything stays nice and straight and in control.

That brings me to the goofy cap. Here's a picture of its internals.

Hmm.. no oring, and no place for one, just what looks like tape?!  And, the button unseats a piece that seems to act like a seal.  Maybe that button isn't a "press to pierce", but a "press to dump".  But why would the engineers make such a cap, and arrange it with a dedicated 8g converter?

So here's the only sense I can make of all this: I think this gun was a test mule for that trigger that no documentation seems to exist for!  Given that, having an 8g, dump-able cart system makes a ton of sense. Why waste a 12g cart when most of your shooting is testing?  And might as well make it easy to dump the cart when you're done testing, and have adjustments to make.  It just might be that this gun was never really intended to be sold, and somehow "got out". The gun that I'd thought might have been a hodgepodge slap together of random parts might just turn out to be a factory test-bed.  I'm pretty happy with that thought.  I only wish there was Hammerli knowledge like there is Daisy knowledge, with someone who could either verify or authoritatively disprove my theory.

I hope you enjoyed the ride as much as I did, and thank you for the indispensable help.  And I hope the pictures add useful information for other Hammerli owners.

but the cap might not be for a Master, the Master came with a 12gr cap and a piece so you could use 8gr carts but not all models use 12gr but the 8gr carts 

so that cap could be off one of those models 

the dump setup on the caps was for the competition shooters, when pressure drop below a full shot pressure it would dump the co2 so he did miss the next shot with lowered pressure

the Master pistol won the German National Championships in 1965-66-67 so these in there day were the pistol to shot 

thanks for all of your post and everything written today will help someone in the future as long as they can find it 

take care 

mike

Can anyone tell me how you separate the frame from the barrel assembly?

I have the grips off and the tine set screw thru the frame and the screw that you access thru the trigger guard

But is still is firmly attached

Am I missing something?

Hi.  There's only one screw that keeps the grip and trigger assembly joined to the "upper" barrel assembly, and that's the one right in front of the grip, before the trigger guard.  If you have that one out and the handle doesn't come pretty freely off, there's something odd going on.  Have you a Single or a Master?  

@burghdude, it's a single

The pic shows the screws that I did remove

There is no screw in front of the trigger guard

The screw you want is at the BACK of the trigger guard where your second finger would be.  From your photo it looks like you have a pad or spacer fastened over that area - remove it and the screw will be obvious.

Don R.

Well now I feel like a dummy.

Yep, that was it

Thanks for the help

New (to me) Hammerli - new problem:

So after replacing seals on my Master, last step, tightening the screw that holds the grip frame to the upper.

If I snug the screw - the pellet tap binds and won't pop out

Back it off, and the tap moves smoothly

And I can't figure out why -

It worked before

As I recall, the set screw you mentioned above on Sept 25, 2020 (indicated by your arrow at the rear of the frame) is the means of establishing/adjusting the positional relationship of grip frame to main action tube.  If you removed that screw when taking the gun apart, you'll need to play with it in order to avoid binding of the pop-up loader.  This can be a finicky setting with patience required.

Don R.

That is a very good point, however I did not touch that screw when I first tried to re-assemble it.

Since then I have tried adjusting it in tiny increments to no avail.

I find that there is a small range of settings where it seems like it will work, but as soon as I tighten the frame screw, it binds up again.

I bet I have spent an hour fiddling with it. I never had this problem with the Single.

Edit @ 21:00 EDST: 

More fiddling and now it is working most of the time.

I put the loading tap in the lathe and added a bigger chamfer to the bottom edge and polished the bottom 3/8.

But what may be the real difference is that I removed the trigger stop bar and screw.

I suspect that the screw may be a hair too long and contacts the trigger housing, causing the grip frame to distort when the main screw is tightened.

I'm glad you're back in operation.  I found that most often it takes a lot of tighten a bit, check, slide the grip usually fore or aft, tighten again, check, loosen, start over, swear, repeat till it is good.  I had a single that required a little side pressure on the grip / barrel interface while tightening to get it settled into reliable.     

@pistolero 

Hi Pistolero. I am Klinge, new on the forum and living in Sweden. I am like most of the owners to a Hämmerli Master surprised at the lack of detailed information on the gun. I was given one that was in quite a bad shape. It looked good but somebody had worked on it. It took me some time to figure out how to put it together. But som questions remains. How far down is the nut holding the needle supposed to be set. The nut is V3. A012. And by the way I have the ball valve version. I read somewhere that the nut is not to touch since it is factory set and locked with a punching in the threads. If I understand it correctly they determined the optimum position at the factory and then made that punchmark  in the threads. That means that you can´t move it outwards but inwards. Is that correct? I think I can see where it was but it is filed down. It is important to know it to get the distance for the needle and the right pressure on the valve.

The valve seal V3. A014 is another question. The one in the gun is a plastic o-ring, real hard with dimensions 10x5,8x3 mm. I guess it is too old and it for sure does not seal anything. I will try with  one made in PTFE. But in one of the threads hear it said that it should be chamfered. I could not find any exact translation into swedish. Do you know the meaning of it in this case?

Hope you look into this forum now and then.

@klinge 

Single resealing: https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/postid/7364/

Master resealing: https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/postid/5998/

And another Master resealing on here: https://airgunwarriors.com/community/postid/5475/

@ck Thanks a lot Citizen K. And looking at your figure I suppose the ball would be placed att the top side. Is that correct?

@klinge, Looking at the valve diagram and a disassembled valve I have, it appears there is not a chamfer [avfasning?] on the original valve seal, which seems to be nylon-type material.  The corner forming the seal against the ball will need to free of burrs or machining fuzz, so a small chamfer could be worthwhile in making a new part.

Positioning the pierce pin retainer nut should leave a very small protrusion of the pin after assembly, so as not to pierce when tightening the rear cap - it's of course intended to pierce by hammer impact.  To me, the diagram below has too much pin sticking out.  On a couple Hämmerli's I used a bit weaker valve spring for increased velocity (and gas consumption).

Don R.

@oldair Thanks for clarifying the chamfer. It feels so good to know more and more about this. Now to the retainer nut. I understand what you mean.but still not sure. I have the nut set but the harder I screw down the valve screw the more pressure I put on the pin and the spring and further out the pin will come. How do I know how hard I should tighten the valve screw or should I tighten it as much as possible and then adjust the retainer nut? Or should I tighten it until it is so deep down that I hardly can grip it any more? I think this is a vital question in order to get the needle to work properly and the valve to do so too.

The valve retainer screw V3.A011 must be tightened solidly to retain seal V3.A014..."should I tighten it as much as possible and then adjust the retainer nut?" - yes.

Again, the piercing needle should not protrude so much that the CO2 cartridge is pierced as you tighten the rear cap.  I'd suggest having it almost at the same level as the rear face of retainer V3.A012 (again, less protrusion than the diagram shows).  If your gun fails to pierce on the first dry-fire, you can adjust for more protrusion by small increments.

@oldair Again, thank you so much. Now I think that all question marks are straitend out. Hope I get the new seal tomorrow or actually later today the time over here is 18 minutes after midnight so I am saying good night and have a nice day which you are worth  having helped me so much.

@oldair A report. I got a new seal two days ago. It did not look very good but I put it in and tried to do everything the way you recommended. And everything worked fine and I fired one shot and there was power in it. But that was late in the evening so I went to bed very well aware of the possibility that the cartridge might be empty next morning. And so it was of course. 

Now I have ordered material PTFE to try to make e new seal myself. I have a small very nice lathe. I do not know much about how to use it but I will try. 

@klinge, I'm curious where you found a seal for the Hämmerli?  They have been unavailable here in the US for a while.  A couple things to consider if you haven't already: Replacing O-rings V3.A101, and making sure the valve ball is fully clean and smooth.

When making a seal, be careful to have a burr-free surface where the ball contacts.  Before assembling, it could be a good idea to place the ball onto your seal and give it a thump with a lightweight hammer to ensure a good mating surface.  Best of luck!

Don R.

@oldair Well, the seal was made by som friends who works with PTFE not making small things like this seal though and they warned me that it might not work. But they tried and that´s nice. 

Yes I replaced the o-rings V3.A101 and I looked at the ball and it seems to be perfect.

I will follow your advice when making the seal and also in making a good mating  surface.

I let you know the outcome in a few days I hope. Depends on when I get the material.

@oldair Got the material for the new seal yesterday. Made some and put one into the pistol. The cartridge was opened on the fourth try. Maybe it needs a little adjustment. But the pistol worked and that is about 24 h ago. I estimate that I have fired around 20 shots and it is still working. But at one occasion it seemed to be out of gas but worked again on the third try and works ok now. Can you explain that?

If you need a seal for a Hämmerli Master with a ball valve just let me know and I will send you one.

I wish you a Merry X-mas and a Happy New Year.

@klinge I'm glad your seal manufacturing worked out!  As I mentioned in an earlier post, the valve spring in these is stronger than necessary, which is why you needed four tries to pierce the cartridge.

As to why it seemed to be out of gas at one point in your shooting but started working again, I don't have an answer.  A possibility is that something caused the hammer to 'stick' and not give a full impact to the ball - such as a bit of debris in the receiver tube...?

Actually I have a piece of PTFE from a project years ago.  I was debating whether it could do the job in a couple Masters needing seals, now your experience tells me it can.  Your kind offer is appreciated, but I can turn some out on the lathe.

God Jul och Gott Nytt År to you!

Don R.

i hope your turkey was fine. Do you have any swedish connections or did you ask the computer for the greetings? Anyhow it was a nice surprise.

The Master akted a little funny yesterday. Missed one shot now and then and now I think it is empty. Did not look any closer at it today.

Started on a Diana model 10 instead. Somebody else had stated on it before so it was taken apart and I think all the peaces are there. I replaced  the gascets, gave it some grease and put it together which of course was a battle. I also had been warned that it is real hard to cock it and it sure is. There is a nice wooden grip which I did not put on yet so  it is almost impossible for me to cock it. And it actually is since it will not cock. There is one spring number 56 in the schematic that I am unsure of what parts it should effect.  Do you have any experience of that gun?                             

@oldair The Diana is working really good. And that makes me realize that the power in the Master is way too low. Later on I will take it apart to find out why it is so. If you have any ideas please let me know.

@klinge I did cheat on the greeting by web translator, though my daughter-in-law is Swedish - I'm with the family for a holiday trip in Italy right now.

As to low power in the Master, it could be that PTFE is a bit too soft for the valve seal after all, making it require more push from the hammer to open the valve.  Again, reducing force of the valve spring could help the overall performance, as I have done on one or two Hämmerli's in the past.

Don R.

Welcome to Europe. And when talking about relatives, I have a sister living in the USA.

Can a too deep camphering be  a problem? The seal is 3 mm thick and the campher is about half way through.I have another I can put in with a very small campher. 

Reducing the valve spring is a way to test. How much in terms of turns of the spring do you think I should cut off?

@oldair I just sent an answer but can see that it is not adressed to you so please see the answer above.

@klinge Yes, I'd say too deep a chamfer on the seal could reduce velocity: the sealing diameter of the ball against the seal itself will be larger than original, giving a higher force of CO2 pressure pushing against the ball.  Thus the normal hammer force/impact will not open the valve as much as intended.  Definitely it's a good idea to reduce the chamfer to a minimum.

As to the valve spring, when I replaced them I found a spring of similar overall dimensions but considerably thinner wire (did not record the data back then); my estimate of force reduction would be a good 30%.  I'm sure that would equate to more than one coil removal from the factory spring.

Don R.

@oldair Ok, I will use a seal with very little chamfer and I will also start looking for a replacement spring. I would prefer that as a first step rather than cutting the original one. I let you know how it proceeds.

Claes

@oldair I hope you enjoyed your stay in Europe and guess that you are back in the States by now. I followed your advice and found a softer spring and

reduced the chamfer, not as much as I intended to but enough. The pistol works really good and so does the Diana 10 but it is a pain to break. Now I ran in to a rifle, a Feinwerkbau 150. I paid 10$ for it. Unfortunately I found out that it is for a lefthanded when I got home . So I am looking for another stock. I would have bought it anyhow, they are quite scarce. 

I joined an air weapon club just close to where I live.

Be well.

Claes

@klinge  Glad to hear your Master is working satisfactorily - they are great shooters and highly accurate.

If you don't mind saying, what part of Sweden are you in?  Most summers I visit with family-in-law near Öregrund, northeast of Uppsala.

Don R.

@oldair I am living in the southern part. My hometown is Laholm on the west coast just south of Halmstad. Let me know if you are coming this way. My sister and her daughter are supposed to visit this summer.

Claes

@oldair Very close to a year has pssed since our last contact. The latest regarding my Hämmerli Master is a different material in the seal. It is named PEEK and is a very hard plastic material, the hardest according to the salesman.. I have used it for close to a year now and the gun still works fine.

My problem now is my Feinwerbau 150 rifle. I found a  new stock and it shoots fine but there is an issue with the loading. You don´t happen to know somebody that is kind of an expert on the old Fwb rifles? Or should I put out a question on this forum?

Regars Claes

@klinge,

It's good to hear that your Hämmerli is working well.

Definitely you should start a new topic with your question(s) about the FWB 150 !

Don R.