Looking for 0.25 Ca...
 

Looking for 0.25 Caliber Springer. Recommendations? Why did manufacturers stop producing 0.25 Springers?  

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MASSHOLE_AIRGUN_MILITIA
(@masshole_airgun_militia)
Joined: 4 weeks ago
Posts: 12
2019-11-12 22:43:28  

Looking for 0.25 Caliber Springer.

1) Recommendations for a 0.25 Springer? Any 0.25 Springers to avoid. I am looking for good/great trigger, accuracy, power, and etc.

2) Why did manufacturers stop producing 0.25 Springers? (i.e. Gamo Socom, etc.)

 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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2019-11-13 03:05:25  
Posted by: @masshole_airgun_militia

Looking for 0.25 Caliber Springer.

1) Recommendations for a 0.25 Springer? Any 0.25 Springers to avoid. I am looking for good/great trigger, accuracy, power, and etc.

2) Why did manufacturers stop producing 0.25 Springers? (i.e. Gamo Socom, etc.)

The UK made Webley Patriot, also known as Beeman Kodiak was good in .25 caliber. It's not made anymore, but you might be able to find one used if you keep your eye open.

As far as why they stopped making them, it could wind up being a long discussion. And actually, I thought there were still a few of them being made out there by someone.

But, short version, a springer power plant is pretty much pushed to the max to move enough air to make .25 caliber practical and flat shooting enough. In other words, the very nature of a springer is that it's got to be self-contained when it comes to air production, and it needs to produce that air with a single cocking stroke.

Sure, for a PCP, that gets its air elsewhere, larger calibers are no problem. But as you probably know, in the case of a springer, where all of the air has to be produced on-board, from a combination of the power of the mainspring, the internal piston seal's  outside diameter, and the length of the compression chamber that is utilized (aka 'stroke'), it's really quite a task.

That's not to say that you have to have the highest velocity in the world to enjoy a given caliber of air gun. The Brits are still using .22 caliber, quite effectively I might add, even for small game hunting, even when they are limited to only 12 foot pounds of energy unless they get an FAC, or firearm certificate. If they exceed the 12 FPE limit without the license, their guns are confiscated and they can go to prison.

I power tuned two or three Beeman R1's, aka the HW80, to get about 700 feet per second out of them with the (edit) light-for-the-caliber H&N FTT pellet. The shot cycle was still quite pleasant because of the parts I used. I think that came out to right around 20 FPE. The owners still liked them quite a bit, and they were plenty of fun to shoot.

Even though a gun has a more loopy trajectory as the velocity decreases, once you learn what that trajectory is, you can simply account for it when you sight in, and then you're good to go. The rifle I mentioned at the beginning of this post shot at closer to 800 feet per second with the same pellet. Even at 100 feet per second less, the latter rifles we're still great guns. And, yes, you can still do small game hunting with them.

Take a cue from our game hunting friends from across the sea with that 12 foot pound limit, and hone-in on your shot placement skills. That reminds me, I need to practice mine! LOL.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 370
2019-11-13 04:47:26  
Posted by: @masshole_airgun_militia

Looking for 0.25 Caliber Springer.

1) Recommendations for a 0.25 Springer? Any 0.25 Springers to avoid. I am looking for good/great trigger, accuracy, power, and etc.

2) Why did manufacturers stop producing 0.25 Springers? (i.e. Gamo Socom, etc.)

 

There's a very pretty Cometa Fenix .25 that's been sitting on the classifieds for about a month.  Great price.  I've been tempted....


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Talldog
(@talldog)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 31
2019-11-13 18:17:54  
Posted by: @masshole_airgun_militia

Looking for 0.25 Caliber Springer.

1) Recommendations for a 0.25 Springer? Any 0.25 Springers to avoid. I am looking for good/great trigger, accuracy, power, and etc.

2) Why did manufacturers stop producing 0.25 Springers? (i.e. Gamo Socom, etc.)

 

https://www.airgunforum.ca/store/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=196

 

... Canadian dollars too …  about $195 US.


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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2019-11-13 19:34:40  

@talldog

If you can find one in 25 caliber, please post a link for that too. They seem to be hard to find. Admittedly, maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. That happens quite often.

The Webleys stopped being made in Great Britain quite a few years ago. Hatsan in Turkey bought the right to the name, but it's not the same gun in all respects. In most cases, the Turkish guns don't have quite as high a level in quality. At least, that was true when they first took over, and as of a few years ago.

I really stopped watching the Turkish brand when that happened, because of the lack of quality. Maybe they fixed it! That would be great news!

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 186
2019-11-13 22:12:27  

Webley Tomahawk was avail. in .25 but I don't think there were many made. I have a UK T-Hawk that shoots 20g pellets 700 - 705 fps and I shoot it to 80 yards. About a 8- 10" hold over at that distance. Webley Stingray in .25 was more common but about a 625 -650 fps gun with same pellet.

 

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


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ThelVadam
(@thelvadam)
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 3
2019-11-15 20:13:34  

Really like my Diana 52 in .25. Maccari ZRT kit w/brass tophat-740 fps+ w/H&N  FTT.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 390
2019-11-16 07:30:55  

Adam the 4th and Josh the 3rd?  Getting crowded around here...

 

No chrony but my Hatsan 135 .22 shoots 25.4gn with authority and the muzzle sound emissions are substantially reduced compared to 14.3gn etc.

What I mean is, the gun shoots more tamely with super heavies than light (regular?) and penetration in meat is very similar to CCI CB .22 short. (29gn 725fps)

 IMHO the walnut stock makes great ballast, plastic stocks hurt my eyes.

Be forewarned, it's a big heavy gun, multiple people have remarked that it reminded them of a M1 Garand, sounds like a pneumatic framing nailer.

 

D52 makes around 10fpe less. Have D54 in .22, uber reliable hole puncher, can't say enough good things.

There you have it, the world according to John.


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JohnL57
(@johnl57)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 40
2019-11-16 13:40:42  

Check the Desert dealer-most of their HW guns are available in .25. HW quality is top notch as are the Rekord triggers. I just wish they would barrel some of their PCPs in .25.


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MASSHOLE_AIRGUN_MILITIA
(@masshole_airgun_militia)
Joined: 4 weeks ago
Posts: 12
2019-11-17 22:25:50  

I was considering Weihrauch in 0.25, HW98 in particular. Does anyone have experience with HW98 in 0.25? Chrony numbers with details would be nice.


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MASSHOLE_AIRGUN_MILITIA
(@masshole_airgun_militia)
Joined: 4 weeks ago
Posts: 12
2019-11-17 22:31:03  

@ekmeister

I recently purchased Hatsan Mod130S chambered in 0.30. First one I received was bad. Optic sights were falling off, had a rust spot out of the box, and there was one other thing that was wrong I currently can't remember. Returned to PA and exchanged for a new one. The replacement was perfect out of the box. I think quality control sucks with Hatsan. Hatsan packaging is questionable at best.


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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2019-11-17 23:08:42  

@masshole_airgun_militia

Thanks for the update regarding Hatsan quality, or rather, the lack thereof. I heard similar things. In fact, back when Winchester first put their name on a springer and had it made in Turkey, they really weren't nice guns at all. The triggers were super heavy. The lube around the piston was kind of gritty feeling, like they'd never cleaned out the receiver after they machined the tube.

I tried getting one to be accurate, but I could only get it so far. I certainly wouldn't call it good.  In all respects, not nearly as nice as a British or German made rifle. In fact, now that I think about it, I worked on two of them, and they were just the same, not very nice. Of course, I think they were selling them for $100. What could you really expect?

Basically, they spit a pellet out the end of the barrel when you pulled the heavy trigger, and that's all you really got. Later on, if I'm not mistaken, I heard that it was the Hatsan factory that was making those rifles, too.

I'm glad the dealer finally sent you a nice one.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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MASSHOLE_AIRGUN_MILITIA
(@masshole_airgun_militia)
Joined: 4 weeks ago
Posts: 12
2019-11-18 07:56:12  

@ekmeister

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Currently, I would buy Hatsan again but I would be mindful of the fact that quality control needs work and packaging needs work.

What I love about my Mod130 is Trigger (smooth and predictable. I have not adjusted it at all out of the box), cycle rate (slow but smooth making it accurate, really a gentleman's gun), I love the fiberoptic sights in the day but not so much when it gets darker out, I love the fact that it spits out 0.30. This is not a bench gun! This is a hammer! I am concerned about passthrough as any gunner worth their salt would. I recently notice a whistlepig in my backyard and I figured if I need to put it down I wanted to do it justice. I could have used my 0.22 but 0.30 is a better tool for the job.

Anyways, be aware of what you are buying and getting. Be safe always. 


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ekmeister
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2019-11-18 10:23:45  

@masshole_airgun_militia

I've wondered about the .30 caliber models, and now I know a little more based on your mini-review. Because, obviously, if .25 caliber is pushing it for a springer, 30 caliber seemed like it would be way out there, in my opinion.

I'd heard the term whistlepig before, but didn't know what it meant. I just Googled it. I quickly came up with one politician and one brand of Whiskey. LOL. But, Wikipedia straightened it out for me in a jiffy. We're talking about the groundhog. Like in Caddyshack. I know about those. I was born and raised up north, where they were common. I just never heard the term.

I'd be interested in any other comments you have to make about shooting that .30 caliber Hatsan springer.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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MASSHOLE_AIRGUN_MILITIA
(@masshole_airgun_militia)
Joined: 4 weeks ago
Posts: 12
2019-11-18 22:50:03  

@ekmeister

You really need to try a 0.30 springer. It is a trip!

I would add Weight as an issue. Pro is it gives stability as the spring is massive in this gun. Barrel is only about 10 inches and the rest is the powerplant. Con is the weight. It weighs much as M1/M14. This is a workout. +10 lbs. before scope. About 12 lbs. w/ a scope. 

I love how it thunks when the spring smashes. It is also very quiet since pellet is traveling at subsonic. 

It isn't for small hands. The whole gun is slightly oversized, so if you have small or maybe medium hands it maybe a challenge to grip.

Cocking force is crazy. Approximately 60 lbs.!!! It's like trying to take off a lug on a car.

If I haven't scared you off yet. Mod130 is accurate at <20yds without a scope. I can confidently say I can do <1 in. group at that distance. I can't wait to put a scope on it and try to reach out some.

I combine my Mod130 with Polymag and it is awesome. I tagged a Eurasian Sparrow and it pink misted. Nothing to pickup.

I feel like people don't appreciate 0.30 Springer but for the right job I think it's perfect. I would love to do a Field Target with it some day. If anything else it is an interesting idea.


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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2019-11-18 23:43:24  

@masshole_airgun_militia

With only a 10 inch barrel, if it's like every other springer I've ever worked on, I guarantee you it's giving up some velocity to the shortness of the barrel.

I know the rifle is already long at 47 inches, but from the photo I saw on a vendor site, it looks like a lot of the length of the barrel is in the moderator. If they could remove even 2 to 3 inches of moderator, and added that back onto the length of the barrel, the velocity would probably be at least a little bit higher--maybe even more than a little.

And, as it turns out, very short barrels, like that one has, tend to be a significant part of the problem when it comes to noise with a springer, anyway.  The rifle might not NEED that long of a moderator on there if they just lengthened the barrel. I've seen and heard it with several rifles--most notably a Diana 350 I tuned that was converted to 25 caliber, but had the barrel chopped way off to something like 12 or 13 in. It was much louder than it was with a longer barrel.

I really need to keep my humility hat on here, LOL. I wasn't there when they designed or tested the rifle. So some of this about noise and the length of the barrel on that particular gun is back-seat engineering and supposition. I want to make that clear. But the theory isn't totally a theory. It's been true in practice, that is, experience I've had in working with springer barrels of different lengths, and their associated noise levels.

While it's true that carbine barrels tend to have an accuracy advantage over longer barrels, they don't have to be shortened all the way down to 10 inches in length to shoot accurately. For instance, the Diana 350 I mentioned typically comes with the full length, 19 in. barrel as I recall. Even those rifles with a 19 inch barrel can be nicely accurate.  But, the Diana carbine barrels are 16 in long, only 3 inches shorter, and they tend to add some accuracy to the rifle, because of it.

Anyway, I'd be happy to have a 25 caliber Weihrauch or RWS/Diana rifle to work on here, and I do mean soon! I bought a nice little assortment of springer pellets in that caliber when I tuned the 350.  They're just sitting on the shelf gathering dust now. Besides, I'm almost through with my last tuning project. So, like it was two or three months ago, I'll be needing another project here by the end of the week.

Feast or famine, it's true with many lines of work, and it's pretty much always been true with this air gun tuning work, too. I'm sorry I don't work on the Hatsans, in case you thought of getting that done.

I may eventually take another look at working on them someday. Having just finished that tune on an FWB Sport, a brand new model here in the States, I'd really rather not work on anything out of the ordinary right now. I'll try to keep it simple for the time being. I may get more adventurous later.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 258
2019-11-19 09:17:29  

"They" stopped making a lot of rifles I which that hadn't...some that got "new and improved" that weren't really better than what they replaced.

Does seem like the .25 versions had more than their share of dissapearences. Mostly the low-n-slow ones. The most powerul of the .25 springers are pretty large heavy springers with a stiff cocking effort.

Depending on how you count (stock choices really aren't a different rifle, rebranding doesn't make it a new rifle, etc.) are still some .25 springer (or gas-spring) choices but not a whole lot of makers.

Do like the .25 in springers. So long as accurate, don't really mind the slow speeds (not all airgunning is about long range).


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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 49
2019-11-19 10:22:50  

@masshole_airgun_militia

I don't mean to disparage your fondness for the big bore springers, but your post detailed almost every reason why even committed spring gun shooters might want to stay away from them. I love shooting springers, but a 60 lb cocking effort air rifle that requires large hands to grip and upper body strength to aim and then lobs a largish pellet like a slow moving mortar round for all the effort, seems the stuff of nightmares!

I think the spring power plant is optimized for rather low (relatively speaking) power small bore airguns. Ten years ago when there were few affordable big bore pcps, and even those available were pretty crude by today's standards, there was probably a market for big bore springers for those who really needed a big bore airgun. With the explosion of pretty affordable big bore pcps in the last five years, that springer market must be so niche that very few manufacturers would hope to be there and make a profit. That said seems there are a couple of .25 springers available on Pyramyd Air. 


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James Perotti
(@jpsaxnc)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 77
2019-11-19 11:28:21  

@jiminpgh

@ only 7.5 lbs. the Cometa Fenix would be my pick.


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Rob in NC
(@rob-in-nc)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 196
2019-11-19 13:19:10  

I have a UK Patriot in .25 and it's a solid gun for sure.  It's not shot much nowadays in favor of PCP's, but it's nice to have. 

I had looked at the .30 springer very hard for a while, but multiple reports of issues squashed that fleeting fantasy permanently.   I'm sure there are some good ones out there, but I just saw too many reports from those who had issues with them. 

Not sure what I'd have done with it other than for novelty purposes, but the same can be said for the Patriot.  It's a nice novelty to take out a big springer.  The cocking effort doesn't bother me and I find I can do a shooting session easily enough with it, just have to be careful with the wedding ring and doing the 'Webley slap' (some may be familiar) to get it started.   Being heavy makes it a lot easier to shoot accurately, but still is a challenge.  I  imagine accuracy would be difficult to master with that power level at any caliber in a spring gun that was lighter.

All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand.

Good judgment comes from experience; experience usually comes from bad judgment.


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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2019-11-19 14:57:04  

@rob-in-nc

Rob,

I also had a UK Patriot/Beeman Kodiak in .25 caliber. I loved it. In my case, JM was selling high powered kits for the rifles at the time, so I got even more power out of mine. It was still smooth and accurate shooting.

The only reason that the rifle and I parted ways is that I had to fund an emergency move out of an apartment complex where I lived for three or four years.  It was a nice place for most of that time, but all of a sudden there were a couple of drug-related murders, and that was it for me. I wasn't going to wait around to save another thousand dollars I needed for the move, so I sold two of my very favorite airguns in the world to raise the money in a big hurry. I was never able to replace them with equivalents. That's what I call a sad story.

Moving wasn't a mistake, though, you can't shoot airguns or do anything else for that matter, if you're dead.  But, I sure do miss those rifles!

As far as cocking effort, since I'm in the business, of course I tuned mine. When I do my tunes, I cross-hatch the receivers, plus use things like moly and graphite lubes, and there's always a nice reduction in cocking effort because of it. I add one additional ingredients to the lubricant I use here, and that helps even a little bit more.

I remember coming across a comment  somewhere that said cross-hatching is basically just a word or term that tuners use to try to get your money, but that's really not true. When done right, the technique definitely leaves mini grooves in the steel that hold lubricant even after multiple cocking strokes, and that's always going to reduce both the cocking effort and the possibility of galling. A simple Google search will show that it's used throughout numerous industries to reduce friction, and that it's been proven to work. It can even be used on synthetics, like plastic or nylon, in certain applications. With those, as with steel, the cross hatched areas retain some lubricant, so it doesn't get squeezed out over time, as the parts move back and forth over and over again.

I wanted to make a comment about the famous Webley slap that you mentioned. I also found it to be quite irritating.  I don't just mean mentally, I mean that if I shot more than about 15 or 20 pellets, my hand would be sore. It was quite annoying, and sometimes keep me from shooting the gun. That wasn't going to do at all. There's good news. There's a remedy.

Now, I know you're probably not going to get your Webley tuned if it's working well. But, I know exactly what to do to permanently get rid of that problem. I didn't come up with it.  I read about it in a post by someone else, probably on the old forum. But, it sure works.

In any case,  do you work on your own air guns? If so, you can PM me and I'd be happy to get in touch with you, via maybe a five-minute phone call that would be best and most expedient, and I can talk you through what to do so that the problem goes away once and for all.

You won't need a spring compressor. But, I think you may need to remove the barrel from the receiver. You might be able to do it with the barrel still on there. It's been awhile and I kind of forget. But it will be obvious to you once you break open the breech.

As to your comment about them, you can't argue  with the sales figures and the large number of happy owners. PCP's have been sold and continue to be sold for a host of good reasons. But, with a springer, I still like knowing I can go out for a weekend outing with just my rifle and a couple of thousand pellets, if I want to do that much shooting, and know I won't be left short of air. So, I think they still have a place in the air gun world, and others continue to post similar comments from time to time. Even if I'm the last one in the that's still feels that way, I don't plan to ever get rid of mine!

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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MASSHOLE_AIRGUN_MILITIA
(@masshole_airgun_militia)
Joined: 4 weeks ago
Posts: 12
2019-11-19 16:21:50  

@functor

Since you brought it up I want to say that I am not advocating everyone get a Big Bore Springer. I am advocating everyone get out of your comfort zone and attempt something new and different if you can or wish to. I will say 0.30 springer is not for everyone but it is interesting enough that it is viable.

I personally feel that there is a place for BBSs. It isn't your everyday plinker but for larger backyard pests I can't think of something better. Yes, I know about PCP options but I am currently tickled by BBSs and the idea of not being tethered to a bottle or a compressor. 

As the technology advances larger caliber will be viable for springers. I do wish that someone workout the cons of 0.30 Springers. Worst case for 0.30 springers is it stays a novelty item and never advances which would be a damn shame.

I want to say it again. Large Bore Springer is not for everyone. It is heavy, and very hard to cock. But it is interesting enough to try. Try before you buy. I personally can't wait for next year to put some hurt on.

If all else fails just keep shooting your 0.177s. I don't mind. Good luck!


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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2019-11-19 18:45:00  

@masshole_airgun_militia

As far as advancing technology for springers, I guess it remains to be seen  if the platform has gone as far as it can go, or at least very close to it. Please read (or skip) to the end, because at first this might not seem like it's going anywhere. But it is.

The Venom (later V-Mach ??) Power Pulse piston seal was a nice advancement that I don't know if anybody but the original designer saw coming. Of course, it's not really new anymore now.  It's been around for around for some time. Still, it's worth mentioning, because when it looked like nothing further could be done to increase air output by means of a piston seal, it proved that something could be.

Anyone who doesn't know what that seal is can look it up. It's basically a piston seal with a cupped face, instead of a flat one. (If you ever saw the photos, the seal sort of stood out because it was a unique, bright green color). The design actually does two things to increase the air output in a springer.

First, when the seal bottoms out at the far end of the compression chamber, the face of the seal collapses, and the air in the cup is also pushed behind the pellet--thus, the words 'power pulse' in the name.

There's a second advantage to the collapsing of the face of the seal.

Those who have examined what happens during the milliseconds of a springer shot cycle--once the piston starts its travel down the receiver tube that is--will remember that there is USUALLY some piston bounce as the seal bottoms out, and thus, a little bit of air is sucked back into the compression chamber, stealing it away from the pellet.

But, in the short amount of time that it takes for the face of the cup faced seal to collapse, there is some dwell time to allow the pellet to advance further down the bore. If you utilize a mainspring with enough preload, the face of the seal will pretty much STAY flat once it collapses. With that, you put more air in back of the pellet to increase its velocity. You can think of it as a shock absorber that eliminates at least some of the piston bounce that would otherwise occur. I hope I said that well enough that it could be followed.

I think it's really a pretty ingenious design. Mainsprings without much preload won't gain nearly as much of an advantage, because they won't produce the same 'flattening' dynamics I just described.

( I want to add here that you don't have to buy a piston seal made across the sea to take advantage of the technology I just mentioned. Right now you can buy one of Maccari's Hornet piston seals for guns like the R9, R10, HW97, and get the same basic design. And,, until very recently, he also sold his 426 Bullet piston seal to take advantage of the same technology in the R1.  It's my understanding that sales for the latter seal were very slow, and that may explain the discontinuation. But, at least you can get it for the other models I just mentioned.).

Webley actually had a setup that accomplished something similar in their earlier, lower-powered springers, but it was a little different in the way it did it.  It did so with a spongy disc located in-between the piston and the piston seal. Their name for that design was something else, not power pulse, but it was something that made sense IMO, and was similarly descriptive. I just can't remember what that was right at the moment.

My point is, if that made a difference when everyone thought nothing else could be done, something else could still be around the corner to further optimize what happens during the springer shot cycle. Gas rams tend to be very efficient in producing high power because they also minimize piston bounce. But, they tend to do so with a sharp jolt at the end of the shot cycle that can make them more harsh for the velocity they're able to produce. Many people have noticed that.

So, here's where I think maybe something else could be done in my opinion. It crossed my mind years ago, and I mentioned it to a friend who said it made some sense to him as a viable possibility. I just never did anything with it, so I'll just mention it here.

Anyone who knows the insides of a springer, or at least the way they work, knows that they use air that starts out at atmospheric pressure, no more. No additional pressure is produced until the trigger mechanism releases the piston, and it starts to travel down the compression chamber. Well, what if we changed that? What if we did something that allowed the springer shot cycle to start with some pre-charged air? I'm not talking about hooking up a pump, a tank, or a compressor to the rifle. That would still be a PCP, just with some different window dressing. How about this...

We already have to pull a lever on a springer to compress the mainspring. I'm talking about either the barrel, or an actual lever located on the side or bottom of the rifle. One pull of a lever per shot, right?

What if we used the very-same cocking stroke to do TWO things, instead?  What if we used it to both compress the mainspring as it normally does, AND to compress some air (with a mechanism similar to that in a single or multi stroke pneumatic gun), and store that air in a valve that releases its air at the same time the piston is released by the trigger?? If you get what I'm saying, pulling the trigger would release the piston AND the stored air. Timing would be crucial, but that could be accounted for with some planning and some experimentation.

Now, some of you may already be ahead of me. Or, maybe it's the other way around LOL. But it's a given that the added parts that produce and store the air would have to do so without requiring  much additional cocking effort. Otherwise, it would be like cocklking a super heavy mainspring, and it would be so tiring there would be no real advantage. At least, not one that would be practical.

Now, I think I'm a pretty humble guy. Somebody may jump in here and say, 'it's already been done!  The name of the guy who did it was so and so, the name of the gun he did it with was so and so, in 19xx, and it didn't work, anyway'.

That's fine. Feel free to do that, by all means. I'd like to hear about it. I've just never heard of it before. And that friend of mine I mentioned, the one who said he thought the idea might be worth putting some effort into, tends to follow technology pretty closely, and he didn't say he'd ever heard of anything like it before, either.

Okay, that's it. I wasted more than enough time on a post that maybe one or two people will read, and it won't make me a single dime. I have real work to do. (I'm almost done with it). If you got this far, thanks for reading and indulging me!

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 49
2019-11-19 19:42:47  

@masshole_airgun_militia

I apologize if I offended you. The internet can make us sound more combative than we intend to be. I do admire people who are willing to put in the extra effort to follow a non beaten track, but we must also accept that the market may not share our tastes and we will not have many options available.

And indeed I stick religiously to 12-14 fpe'ish .177 springers. I shoot only paper and metal and don't need much energy and I think the power to weight ratio of most springers are optimized in that power range. 

All mechanical devices have a performance envelope and while it is fun to push the system beyond that, the results are usually less than optimal. 

However I did not mean to criticize your interest in big bore springers. After all this is a hobby and most of us pick up airguns not because we need them, or they are very practical, but because they capture our imagination. I apologize again if you were offended by my post. 


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 258
2019-11-19 19:50:41  

Pretty much aren't going to beat the old energy-in vs. energy-out equation....could disguise it or spead the energy-in over a wider time range (lets say by two 30 pound ratching cocking efforts vs one 60 pound cocking effort or by a compound lever type cocking system).

Really high energy is just not going to be in the cardsfor a .25 or .30 springer....can be higher than other springers, and I like the idea that Hatsan gave the .30 a try in the springer platform. Folks may not like HAtsan,but at least they gave it a try when no one else would.

Power (energy) isn't eveything,and I do keep a low powered .25 springer simply becasue it is low powered.

Does one job better than the smaller/faster perllets: rat shooting without poking holes in the tin walls/roof of the sheds. A miss or a pass-though will leave a large dent,but not a hole to be patched before the next rain.


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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 174
2019-11-19 20:17:04  

The only spring guns worth considering in .25 were either the RX-2/HW90 or CM/Eliminator.

https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/gas-ram-rifles/weihrauch-hw90-.25/

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Weihrauch_HW90_Breakbarrel_Air_Rifle/2358

Based on advertised specs, a 25gr. JSB traveling 725fps would generate 29FPE.  That is your best value in a .25 break barrel.

 

 


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Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 186
2019-11-20 09:24:27  

"Based on advertised specs, a 25gr. JSB traveling 725fps would generate 29FPE.  That is your best value in a .25 break barrel." 

I doubt the advertised 725 fps was achieved with a 25 grain pellet. More likely a 20 grain H&N. Still respectable power for a springer.

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 258
2019-11-20 10:49:33  

Does make me think about springers in general, not just .25's (or 30's).
Likely best to keep it springer-to-springer type comparsions. Like recoiling/sporter type springers, keep a 6 about the place, and appreciate them becasue they're springers (and all the self contained simplisity of operation that springers offer).
The .25's mentioned are certainly powerful(25-30 foot pounds) in springer-terms. They are aslo large, heavy, stiff to cock, and quite hard to shoot well consistently.
Not impossible to shoot well....although you might think that after your first shooting session....just everything hard about springer shootingmagnififed X3.

Don't look down on springers, they do have some very good points. Anyone who can shoot one well consistently really has put in some serious pravtice.


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 370
2019-11-20 15:28:57  

Many years ago I had a .25 Webley Eclipse that I bought used from the Beeman showroom in Santa Rosa. This was years before anyone had a home chrony, so I can only guess it was between 12-15 fpe. It was one of the prettiest sporter air rifles I've ever owned. Yes, it had a loopy trajectory, but it was an absolute joy to shoot, and if you put in your time, you could land a pellet just where you wanted. Lob it in, then watch it hit, like shooting artillery. When shooting cans and such, there's something to be said for a fat slow heavy pellet in terms of impact damage. Just ask anyone who's ever shot a Slavia 622 at short range. I wish I still had that Webley Eclipse.


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BobBitchin
(@bobbitchin)
Joined: 2 weeks ago
Posts: 1
2019-11-20 15:57:05  

@masshole_airgun_militia

Hi, I am new to this forum so please bare with me. The gun that you were talking about, what does something like that cost and is it available online? 


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