last year I got in on a special order for a HW50s in .20 caliber at AOA. At the time I believe AOA was saying if they had 10 interested parties they would place an order from Weihrauch. I known there was another group generated after my group. As I was doing my usual browse at AOA's website this morning I noticed that they are now offering the HW50s in .20 cal as well as .177 and .22.
I remember that order, although I did not get in on it. Remind me, was that for the regular model? I would absolutely jump on the HW50S Hunter model in .20. Although to this date I still see folk complaining about the Galling issue with their 50. I have the HW30 Urban Pro and really like that configuration since I do not use irons and like the slick looks. Another option is to see if they would do an HW95 Field Pro in .20. The one I kinda regret letting get by me, R9 in .20 sold at a very reasonable price and local to me to boot. Have heard enough good and bad about the caliber to make me want to check it out for myself.
I remember that order, although I did not get in on it. Remind me, was that for the regular model? I would absolutely jump on the HW50S Hunter model in .20. Although to this date I still see folk complaining about the Galling issue with their 50. I have the HW30 Urban Pro and really like that configuration since I do not use irons and like the slick looks. Another option is to see if they would do an HW95 Field Pro in .20. The one I kinda regret letting get by me, R9 in .20 sold at a very reasonable price and local to me to boot. Have heard enough good and bad about the caliber to make me want to check it out for myself.
Intenseaty... your recall is good, it was the regular "s" model
Am a kind of 5mm fan. Even though I only keep 4 5mm rifles, still count myself as a fan.
Even with fans...it's a dead duck GOD BLESS the pellet makers that stillmake good pellets for this "forgotten caliber".
(And in it's decline...DARWIN won...aren't any pellets available now that aren't worth a try. Only "NEW" 5mm pellet marketed in recent years is the 15.9 JSB's.
...in the past, were some pretty crappy 5mm pellet that dropped out of production...or as far as a 5 rifle test can tell, they aren't missed. The few we have NOW are more like the creme-of-the-crop.
Quick tests:
1.What caliber has the LEAST pellet offerings at this date.
2. what caliber has the least "buy it now" new rifles?
3, Other than just liking the 5mm...what does it do better NOW...wnhich maight be different from what it did "then" when there weren't so many .177 or .22 pellet choices?
I personally :LIKE 5mm....but over all, seems like NOT enough airguners like the "5mm compromise" today. Not to say it wasn't a good compromise "back when"
My very first air gun was a Sheridan Model H. LOVED that pistol. I've also owned quite a few Sheridan C's and an F or two. I also owned a Beeman R1AW, which only came in .20. While I don't currently own one, I'm a fan of .20. I for one would be saddened to see it die. The compromise is actually real. Harder hitting than .177, and flatter trajectory than .22. The R1 powerplant was IMHO perfectly suited to .20.
The .20/5.0 mm airguns are not going the way of extinction any time soon. While Beeman was a marketing genius who sold a vast number of ‘gimicky’ pellets in every caliber of the time, the remaining .20 pellets are the only ones that continue to sell the best and the most profitable to the pellet makers. Yes it would be nice to have a wadcutter or hollow point in .20, but does one really need them when ballistically superior domed diabolos out perform them?!? As long as top end makers like Weihrauch and Daystate continue to produce .20 guns, h&n and jsb will continue to produce the required ammo.
The .20/5.0 mm airguns are not going the way of extinction any time soon. While Beeman was a marketing genius who sold a vast number of ‘gimicky’ pellets in every caliber of the time, the remaining .20 pellets are the only ones that continue to sell the best and the most profitable to the pellet makers. Yes it would be nice to have a wadcutter or hollow point in .20, but does one really need them when ballistically superior domed diabolos out perform them?!? As long as top end makers like Weihrauch and Daystate continue to produce .20 guns, h&n and jsb will continue to produce the required ammo.
Have you tried the 0.20" Cal Predators? USUALLY they shoot well out to 45 yards in barrels that like the JSB's
And they create a 0.30 cal wound channel when impacting above 600 fps.
Yes Sir Hector i have some of the preds. The exception to the rule i suppose. They shot ok in my r1k. The old dynamics pellets were awesome but h&n dropped the line. Fts seem to fillmost of my .20 needs though. Now that you mentioned the preds, i may try them in my Hw30 fir shits and giggles?
the tin of preds i have are on the back of the locker collecting dust. May be time to rediscover them.
Are still good .20 pellets made..and I don’t doubt that there will be at least some type of pellets made for years to come. Good stocks of out of recent production pellets here and there.
If looking today and wanting to order some that are in stock, might be better to look to web-sites you didn’t often order from in the past.
But being honest….do you really expect a 5mm surge in popularity? (and if so..why, other than we “like them”).
Still seems pretty much on life support rather than thriving.,,,but so far, not one has signed a DNR.
Turning a corner? No, not unless one or maybe 2 gun makers out there decide to toss a new .20 caliber rifle into the mix and rumor has it Hector up there may be considering the new D34 EMS platform as a base for custom .20's using it. I also see now and then shooters who either build or have custom .20 cal guns built and as already mentioned, Weihrauch, Daystate and Air Force still build guns in the caliber so I'd like to think while not gaining, .20 isn't fading into total obscurity either.
Also only noticed one reply in this thread, from JiminPGH, who mentioned Sheridans. Everyone seems to mention the Beeman's and Weihrauch rifles but the Sheridans are guns everyone seems to toss by the wayside but there are still 10's of 1000's out there. They come up for sale fairly often and those guns and the shooters who love them are a part of why, while the caliber is a niche one, it's still here and pellets being made for it and will be for years to come.
I own 8 myself., 7 springers and the above mentioned and often disregarded Sheridan. Mine is a 1973 Sheridan Silver Streak. There are 8 pellets still being made for .20 although it should probably be considered 6 since the Daystate labeled Kaisers are the same pellets as the H&N FTT 11.42gr and the Daystate Sovereigns are basically the JSB Exact 13.73gr. I have some of everything still made except those Sovereigns plus a sleeve of 10 tins of the now discontinued H&N Spitzkugel pellets I managed to get my hands on when AoA was selling off the last of their stock and at least 4 of those 8 shoot very well in my rifles.
While I won't go crazy, I have a small stockpile of .20 cal pellets and I add a tin or 2 every now and then. Still not hard to find 🙂
I aways liked the 20 cal - nice compromise between 177/22. it is like the 16ga powder burner-when built on a gage specific frame and not a 12 ga frame as a after thought.
Besides the Benji's, what am I missing? I can't find those in stock but not too concerned. Those never worked out in any RWS or Weichrauchs in .20. IIRC, they fit super tight into the breech.
First I've seen Weihrauch branded so I guess 9 choices and I don't have the Daystate Sovereigns. Pic of what I do have although I X'd out the H&N's because they don't make those anymore but looks like you have them all. Benji's only shoot decent in my Silver Streak and even that one shoots the H&N and JSB better.
the Weihrauch brand is clearly JSB but vary slightly in weight; 13.3gn vs. standard Exacts in 13.73. Haven't sorted out an opinion on any differences yet, but with so few .20's available, figured what the hell. ?
Of these12....two are the same thing in different packages, one is the same now just with a new label...and I could definitely live without the other 9.
@steveP I could have worded the post better but it was meant to provide further evidence of HW’s commitment to .20 guns they are making. .20 ammo is probably the hardest to find and if they have their own branded pellets they can ensure that their retailers have pellets for their guns.
Out of curiosity has anyone ever seen or tried their ammo? Says it’s designed for HW barrels
I'm waiting for straitflite to do some more testing with his and fill everyone in before I decide to pony up the $19.95 a tin price but as he mentioned, they're made in the Czech Republic so made by JSB even though the weigh is a hair different. A healthy part of what I have stashed came from Jeff at Trenier Outdoors and AoA so a couple places you can check out.
Current problem is stock for pretty much everything to do with pellets is limited since Covid is affecting Europe just as bad as it is here.
The better pellets for my R-9 were the Crosman bulk Premiers in the small cardboard box,also RWS Meisterkugein and some Beemans.
I like the .20 a lot more than the.177 ;for sure pellet choice has become too slim, I also have 16 ga. Ithaca model 37 and those shells are hard to come by....what next no V8s....every year I have to farther down the age list to find "my group".
Once in a rare while, someone pops up selling a box or 3 of the old Crosman .20 cal pellets, I just seem to always be 5 minutes late when they do...lol. Also found some a few years back, but the Ebay seller while he had a good price, was in the UK and refused to ship to the US.
Oh well, someday it might happen but I got a pretty healthy supply of what is available and they all shoot very well in the 8 .20's I have so far.
I don't think anyone will be tossing out their Blue Streaks anytime soon. I've noticed quite a few being listed lately for $300 or thereabouts....and being purchased. Even if .20 ammo dries up, couldn't a .22 be swaged down? I'm not sure how well they would shoot but, given there are a lot of .22 variations, one or two might work.
I own a few Diana .20 caliber springers sourced from some of Hector's "Group Buys" A 34K - CCA 5,0 / .20 (6 A.O. Martínez),430 Stutzen .20 von L-W and a Model 54 (12. A.O. Martínez)... all these air rifles have Lothar Walther barrels.
For my purposes, I've found the .20/5mm caliber is a good compromise-caliber for the energy-output my spring-&-piston rifles produce. I've learned the Diana model 54/52/48 series power-plants were mostly conceived-and-engineered to propel .22 caliber pellets foremost. As such, these magnum spring&piston air rifles can easily tax the design-parameters of light-weight (7.9gr and less) .177 caliber pellets. .22 vs .177 ... in this vain, the .20/5mm projectiles present an excellent compromise with a flatter trajectory and satisfactory power/penetration.
With the current trend towards PCP air rifles going so strong, the .20/5mm caliber compromise has lost its place. As the flexible power-reserve of most PCP systems can easily manage heavy for-bore pellets while retaining good velocity. The same cannot be said of springers.
Seems the trend towards PCPs continues unabated - I've fallen in-line by recently purchasing my first few. The spring-&-piston air rifle may-well become relegated ... to a tool of third-world countries or impoverished nations. Whose Governments prohibit firearms ownership by the indigenous populations.
As such it is easy to foresee, the spring&piston air rifle going-the-way of the dodo bird and passenger pigeon. Along with the .20/5mm pellet. And not so-far behind are those aging air gunners that so-love these airgun-relics ... myself in the first rank.
@crazyhorse Love your shooting rest ! That's a great idea !
I own a couple Sheridans... a Blue Streak & a Silver Streak... my favorite .20 is my HW77K... one of my favorite air rifles !
It's an older MK2 made 1985-1991 according to the serial number.
It cost me $15 bucks ...we were shooting "airgun" Quigley at 55 yards....my Sheridans are 1975 and 1991...your HW77K looks great. My R9 20 is a Paul Watts creation, need to get pic.
NOTE: The .20 cal. pellets are slightly longer than the .22 cal. pellets of the same weight. Therefore, they drag in the barrel a little more and produce lower velocities. The quoted figures (showing the .20 cal. gun shooting slower than the .22 cal. gun) are actual test figures and are correct.
Length isn’t directly related to barrel friction….the contact area isn’t that much different., but the same contact area in a smaller bore does make for more percentage of contact.
Base area seems to be the main factor….air has about 20% more area to push on with a .22 than a .20.
AirForce factory specs weren't far off (maybe a little generous in shot count).
Maybe you can still find an HW that’s not special order….semi-custom makers will still make a 5mm…but that’s about it for 5mm PCP’s today.
Have to mention….I really didn’t lust after a Webley/Hatsan version of the Raider….but when they went on close out price and one was in 5mm, I pretty much had to….just because it is 5mm.
A bit of a PIA to keep the old rifle running….parts support is like “nil”.
Keeping that really old Sumatra 5mm running is about as much of a PIA….were lots of changes over the years, so you have to make the parts rather than buy them when something screws up.
I tried .20 a bunch of years ago during the heyday. R1FT. After a decade of only .177 I found I could not accurately compensate on the fly for distance changes in the field. My days were spent in the woods chasing small vermin, grackles, sparrows, and starlings so as such targets were never at a known distance, just anywhere from 5 to 50 yards.
After a summer of trial and error I sold the only .20 I ever owned and stayed with .177.
Today I'm indifferent about the seeming demise of the caliber. I still hope there will always be ammo for it, however.
‘They” must have had at least some supply of pellets in stock rather than a pure “on demand” type zero-stock situation (which a lot of suppliers use...reliance on constant deliveries to fill the orders without having to warehouse a crap load of stock).
The least popular pellets ran out of stock later than the most sought after pellets (some still haven’t run out).
Production is started to catch up...new prices, but the most popular/best selling pellets seem to be the ones to get the initial attention.
Still getting that “in stock today”...”out of s kind of stock” next week...a kind of see-saw of limited supply, but the supply is coming in.
BUT...does seem that the best-selling pellets are getting the most attention (kind of a DUH moment….best selling would the ones you would want to produce/shoip first if you were needing to make a profit.)
So thinking like H&N or JSB….would have two choices….do Icrank up to [produce more of the best selling pellets….or do I crank up for the unpopular/lowest sales volume pellets?
Not being charitable institutions…..pellet makers would produce the best selling first...then debate the production of the least selling.
With a little corporate charity in my heart, would still produce the least selling if they still made some kind of profit.
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In the firearms world….had a change to talk to Joyce Hornady….while he lived, did produce “money losers (his words)" bullets for odd ball calibers. Claimed he never made any real money from those oddball bullets. Various odd ball diameters for old rifles, some odd weights/shapes for traditional loading.
He dies (plane crash in New Orleans)….takes awhile, but once the last production dies wear out, those oddball bullets are dropped. Just cost too much for too little return, same effort could make more money producing the “popular” bullets.
Baring “sentimental” feelings, think that’s the fate of the 5mm for pellets.
Eventually WILL be someone that makes a 5mm….pricing dependent on demand/profit, and it might not be your favorite, but there will be 5mm pellets of one type or another for years to come.
I’m kind of hoping it’s JSB...do seem to be as close to a “universal pellet” as can be had.
OR
There is a 5mm revival….(why I do not know)...popularity becomes greater...pellet production. Variety of pellets becomes greater than now….and it “turns the corner” heading “up”.
Yeah….not likely going to happen...but I will bet that 10 years from now, there will be at least one or two 5mm pellets being made.
You can collect a VERY representative pellet collection of everything they CURRENTLY make (or made) for very little money/effort..it;s like 4-6 tins of pellets as of 2021.
Type of power plant, velocity, energy doesn’t make a rat’sarse for this….just shooting one 5mm rifle at 25 yards for accuracy.
Can guess...is a limited shot count rifle, so IS NOT not a springer or MSP (without no limit to shots per fill).
You can collect a VERY representative pellet collection of everything they CURRENTLY make (or made) for very little money/effort.
No matter what “once was”….no scrambling around for out of out of production pellets…..just what “is” not what once “was”.
May have missed the Predators….don’ t know if they are really still listed as in production or if 5mm shooters are just depleting old stock when they do find them
Type of power plant, velocity, energy doesn’t make a rat’sarse for this….just shooting one 5mm rifle at 25 yards for accuracy.
Can guess...is a limited shot count rifle, so IS NOT not a springer or MSP (without no limit to shots per fill).
Will get 55-60good shots at a time.
Tired the 5 “in production” (or at least were in production before out current shortage)...shoot groups iat staggered times to keep from the “first group bias”.
(Yeah....I peed away the last shots seeing how old WC’s would do for 10shots...they reallly sucked in this rifle).
It is an HW barrel at work….and it does like either of the JSB weights best.
But I’d I would hunt with any of the 5...even the crappiest currently made pellets groups as “passing accuracy” at 25yards.
Even the worst grouping would work for rats, pest birds, tree squirrels, or dime sized spinners…er time...when have pellets gotten cheaper?...how is it going to hurt to have a “stash” of them?)...the best would work for even aspirin tablet sized targets.
Just another take on the current 5mm pellet situation….which is NOT BAD. Really only need ONE pellet that does “it”...then buy a “snit load” of those pellets NOW rather than trust they will be there to buy later (come on...on,….when did pellets really get “cheaper” over time?).
Cheapo alternative for springers: buy a break barrel (used) of a type that lets you change over to .20 barrel easily. Like a HW R1 (or HW 80) or the HW 98 (the one with riser cheek piece).
BTW: HW has also pcp's that can be ordered in .20 cal !
We also did it with two inch square blocks of wood....lined up on a wall. Sometimes the hard part of seeing with peeps is sun light...you need contrast at front sight blade to target.
You 20 cal guys are going to love the new 23.5 cal. It has more stopping power than the 22 cal but flatter shooting than the 25 cal... lol These differences are inconsequential. When the 20 cal came out nobody dreamed people would be lining up to drop $1000 to $2000 on an airgun, especially one 25cal plus. They never thought PCP's would make springers a novelty gun for people who like to shoot clunky airguns with a lot of recoil even after an expensive tune. A lot more than the 20 cal is becoming antiquated. These are interesting times.
This comes up every couple of months, on at least one of the forums. And I laugh every single time cuz everybody tries to argue against the humble .20 with logic and common sense by making statements like can be seen in the above discussion: "there isn't a very good pellet choice," "humph, middle cal you say? best of both worlds you say? more like worst of two worlds, loopier trajectory than .177 and doesn't hit as hard as .22," "pretty soon .20 pellets wont be made anymore cuz x+Y = economies of scale and macroeconomics says that the price of tea in China is going down and JSB can't get as much of the special lead that they put into .20 pellets as they used to and the opportunity cost of using the standard larger JSB tin for smaller pellets just doesn't make good financial sense," and so on and so forth.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but airgunning as a "sport" or a "hobby" is largely devoid of logic and common sense. How much logic is there in spending $3000 on an airgun with another $500-4000 for a scope to put on top of it, oh, and it needs some scope rings-good ones not cheapies, and a $300 bipod (shoulda sprung for the next tier up, the $500 one) and a $300 hard case with foam that can be cut out, and now I need to shoot slugs cuz all the youtubers are, oh, now I need a new barrel liner to shoot slugs, SQUIRREL!!! I need a different $3000 airgun now cuz the first one isn't the latest greatest anymore, and besides, there's a Mark 72 out now, the Mark 1 is at least 8 months old now.
We buy airgun stuff cuz we want to, simple curiosity or otherwise, and that's the long and short of it.
(I bought a .20 cal gas ram about 3 years ago and a semi-custom .20 PCP about 2 years ago, and had another PCP converted to .20 around 10 months ago. Why? cuz I think the .20 is cool. And why do I think it's cool? Equal parts curiosity and nostalgia with perhaps a little bit of external ballistic concepts sprinkled in there to try to justify the .20 experiment. Maybe it has a better form factor or better BC than .177 or .22? Maybe I need one to shoot a bunch to see for myself. I've since sold the gas ram and the semi-custom PCP, but have every intention of keeping the converted to .20 pcp, a .20)
Overall, the answer is no. The .20 isn't turning a corner aside from the downward turn that it already has. It's a fine caliber and if one finds a really good pellet for their application then that's all you need. The barometer here IS the lack of more offerings in the caliber. That was/is the current turn. I'd like to see more choices and same pellet in different head sizes. (ie FTT's come to mind) Something like that would tell me that the .20 is making a turn in the correct direction.
Turned a corner and ran right into a wall. Nothing technically wrong with it, just not enough people buying to justify introducing any new rifles in that caliber in a long long time.
Agree .. tho it is my #1 caliber for use in Field Target where in 5+ years of competing with it at the Local, State and National level it WILL REMAIN as my preferred caliber so long as the quality of JSB exact 13.7's remains as it currently is. There STELLAR !!!!
Agree .. tho it is my #1 caliber for use in Field Target where in 5+ years of competing with it at the Local, State and National level it WILL REMAIN as my preferred caliber so long as the quality of JSB exact 13.7's remains as it currently is. There STELLAR !!!!
I too shot FT with a .20 for 15 years - locally, nationally and at three worlds. Used a high quality springer at 19 fpe. But, like motorhead, the choice was tied to a single pellet - the original, 14.3 gr., Brown Box CPs. When Crosman stopped QC on "Premiers" and finally dropped the .20. I switched to a .177 version of the same rifle and my scores went up 10% immediately - due to the flatter trajectory and smaller diameter which often turned a split into a hit. My vision of ballistic reality also took a hit.
Still have boxes of the .20s that were hoarded when they started to decline and disappear. At 900 fps through my Career they are as accurate and effective against small game as any combo I have ever shot and hold up very well a long range. They also work well in Dans and any other platform that can drive it fast enough. Very nice, balanced pellet.
Well, I have been in search of a pre-owned, tuned Beeman R9/HW95 in .20 for years and a few have slipped by. Today, there is nothing out there, even new. I have plenty of .20 pellets awaiting an opportunity to buy a rifle of the same caliber, but I am starting to think it is like buying a car because you already have the tires, which doesn't really make practical sense. So, if any of you have such a used and tuned .20 (I do not care if it is not a safe queen, stock condition is quite secondary), always feel free to reach out.
Having 3 of my FT spec PCP's currently set up in .20 caliber, they all shoot the primary 4 pellets well ( JSB 13.7 & 15.9, H&N Barracuda & FTT ) equally well.) My personal choice on the JSB 13.7 is that of consistency of the pellet and overall POI stability. While the FTT is lighter, faster and flatter shooting is just seems to vary in POI a tad more leaving a bit more happen chance in having an odd flier screwing up my personal head game confidence.
Just last month shot my first FT club match using the TAIPAN Vet in .177 ( Tuned and massaged to perfection ) Accurate as all get out !! until the wind started to blow !!! SOB Wigged and Wagged at the further distances FAR MORE SO than I ever see with the .20 reinforcing 1st hand as to why I went to .20 cal in the first place !
Yea the trajectory is more artillery than a flatter shooting .177 with the .20 in 13.7 @ 800 fps and a .177 in 10.3 for equal power @ 910 fps. Similarity is very kin the the WFTF guys who shoot 8.4's in .177 @ 790 fps or even 10.3 @ 720 fps. There is IMPROVED wind drift as you slow things down, and if you doubt this you must not or have not shot along side a capable WFTF PCP shooter.
Ribs, you'll hafta speak for yourself on those Valuemaxes. Cheap, yes at $100 each, but crap, nope. I own 4 and while yep, nothing more than .20 cal barreled Hatsan Edge/Strikers, mine are actually seriously accurate. Maybe because of the older build dates and less worn out barrel making equipment?? All of them are 2011/2012 builds with the older style 2 piece cocking arm vs the 1 piece they got converted to. None seem very pellet picky either except they all hate the Benji domes.
No complaints from me on their accuracy because they are and usually one of the rifles I grab for pesting since mine are deadly with Polymags in the 30ish yard killzone that's my back yard.
There's 3 of the 4: top is spring and tuned, middle was converted to a Vortex gas ram, bottom is bone stock. The 4th one after being checked for any damage during shipping got oiled and reboxed. It's never been fired.
Often wondered about the Hatsan made 5mm’s….if Hatsan tooled up to make 6mm barrels, they never used them on anything but the Webley contracts (Valumax and Raider PCP)….that would have been a lot of money to tool up for for very little return.
If Hatsan didn't make the barrels..., wonder who they really contracted them out to.
Always wondered myself but one thought was they got that tooling from Webley. Highland Outdoors bought all the rights to everything Webley in 2006 and that included tooling, so maybe the stuff for .20 was shipped to Hatsan and used until Highland decided to stop having the caliber made??
Highland is also back at it again considering they just built and opened a brand new factory in India and one of the things being made in said factory is a new version of the Webley Tomahawk. Hard to tell from the one picture they showed of the new .177 Tomahawk being made there, but from pics I've seen of the original UK built versions, it does kinda look like they're being made pretty close to the original UK specs. Different front sight and the trigger has more curve to it. They say it's a Quattro but if it is, they redesigned the trigger blade.
Not likely to ever know for sure….compared to an LW and an HW 5mm barrel, there are differences enough to make me think “different production”...if that equates into Hatsan production or large-cheap order by Webley form someone already making 5mm barrels at the time….no clue.
Some years back, as a sell off of semi-machined 5mm barrel blanks that were intended for the Sterling springer (Sheridan/Sterling), were some cheap 5mm barrels. They got snapped up pretty quick for other people’s projects….not really sure who made those either.
