I've read everything I can find on the guns available and now I'm more confused than ever. Right now I have a Crosman Optimus .177 break-barrel springer, lethal to say 35 yards. But I would like a good deal more power such that I can make a clean/solid kill-shot at 100 yards - but I can't drop a $1000 or more on an airgun. Do you experienced folk have any recommendations on such a gun - one that won't break the bank (<$500)? Preferably multi-shot, maybe comes with a good scope.
Is there an advantage of .22 or .177 at longer ranges?
(the scope that came with my Optimus was useless, replaced it with a HAMMER 3-9X32AO, love it).
P.S.: My sincere thanks to those of you who responded to my earlier post on how to use mil-dots for accurate holdover - works every time - I can tear-up a lemon at 50 yards
Thank You,
Sounds like you need to jump into a PCP for what you want to do.
I had bought a used 22 Hatsan Flash Pup and this little bugger can hit an inch and a half spinner target at 100 yards almost 100 percent of the time off of a rest throughout its useable shot curve with 18gr JSBs I was pretty amazed for what it is (budget entry level PCP bullpup). I can imagine a rifle version (FLASH) in 22 should do just as well at 100 yards and cheaper too.
If you get a $40 Chinese hand pump from Ebay or Amazon you will be all set providing you are up to pumping.
A Umarex Gauntlet in 22 can do it as well but would need some work to bump up the power to reliably hit things out to 100 yards since they are anemic out of the box in 22 . They can be had for $200-$240 if you shop smart. They are pretty crude guns IMHO but will eventually do what you want.
You have to be a really really really good shot in order to use a sub $500 springer to reliably hit stuff out to 100 yards unless you buy a used 22 RWS Diana model 54 or 56 which are the only springers IMHO that can come close to getting what you want at 100 yards.
22 is reliably better past 60 yards than 177 and is less affected by the wind.
You may want to get a higher magnificaiton scope if you want to shoot 100 yards with precision.
I would make certain that I could reliably hit a vital kill zone at 100 yards with any gun first before even attempting to take out live game at that distance.
Good luck.
HA
Generally the higher calibers like 22 or 25 and greater will be more useful at that range, not so much for the energy delivered on target but because they tend to be a bit more accurate as range gets really long due to the rounds having more mass and better BC's. The limiting issue will be how big is the kill zone on the target animal and what can you reasonably expect to achieve accuracy wise at 100 yards in the field?
From a bench on average days with only modest variation in the wind, 1 to 1.5 inches for 3 to 5 shots is excellent, in the field under less than ideal conditions you may be hard pressed to hit 3 inches or more? Whatever the field accuracy is will determine if it's good enough for you to use it humanely on your intended game. Clean kills will require some precision... Larger calibers help, PCP's for sure, a scope is a must and then maybe shooting sticks or a really good field target seated / prone shooting position.
Taking small game at 100 yds. would be a tall order for any springer! If you want enough power at 100 yds., you need to get a higher power springer, which is harder to shoot, and probably less accurate at those distances, due to recoil and vibration.
You could get into the PCP game with something like a Gauntlet, or one of the other "entry level" PCPs, a Leapers UTG 4-16 scope, and a hand pump.
The real key is can YOU hit the kill zone of the game that you want to hunt, consistently at that range?
I think for most of us, hunting at 100 yards, even for small game, is not something we can do with a small bore airgun. If you are up to it I think a 25 or 30 caliber is the way to go. We are not talking springers, but PCPs, and probably not your value guns, but more top end guns.
To get a feel for what you can do, attend a few field target events. See what it takes to consistently hit a kill zone from 10 to 55 yards. It is a truly humbling experience. I don't think you would try to shoot beyond 55 yards after realizing how hard that is.
David Enoch
Well said David. It's one thing to write about 100 yard accuracy with airguns and quite another to go out in the field and accomplish it. I personally would not use an airgun for 100 yard shooting. I do shoot 100 yard bullseye with a very expensive .22 LR rimfire rifle and a 2" group would be a clean target which I have never had. if I was serious about 100 yard hunting I would pick a .22 long rifle or better yet a .22 magnum or one of the newer .17 rimfire rifles. Having said all of that there are folks who claim long range accuracy with airguns.
Rick B
"Make it easy on yourself (and easy on the critters), and get this gun. Taking 100 yard critter shots is not very ethical if there is a chance of a flyer. Do the right thing, get the RAW LTR. When you cross the great divide you will be glad you used a RAW. It is what it is. "
He said $500, NOT $2000.
I didn't shoot my Nova Freedom to 100 yards. I would feel comfortable to 50-75 with it. It or the Seneca Aspen might be worth looking into for your budget. Just under $400 with an on board pump so no auxiliary PCP paraphernalia needed. Just a thought.
https://www.americantactical.us/5690/detail.html
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/nova-freedom-pcp-rifle-with-on-board-pump/
Hey Rick how is your Hatsan Flash and the reworked Hatsan underlever? I am surprised you hadn't mentioned those because I am pretty stoked with my 22 Hatsan Flashpup and the 22 AT44 Tactical I got when it comes to accuacy for budget priced airguns. Even my 22 single shot Hammerli (same Hatsan pre AT4410g guns) shot very well at extended distances.
HA
Hey Rick how is your Hatsan Flash and the reworked Hatsan underlever? I am surprised you hadn't mentioned those because I am pretty stoked with my 22 Hatsan Flashpup and the 22 AT44 Tactical I got when it comes to accuacy for budget priced airguns. Even my 22 single shot Hammerli (same Hatsan pre AT4410g guns) shot very well at extended distances.
HA
I didn't mention them because of the need for a pump or bottle. I was impressed with my Nova at the price break and being self contained. Good shooter! As far as my Flash it's a keeper. Mines a .177 and my back garage gun. I generally don't shoot up in the trees in my residential neighborhood but the other day Starlings were just begging for a lead enema. I have it zeroed at 28 yards. The birds were further out. Still held square in the cross hair and it just dropped. The under lever Vectis is just as impressive accuracy wise. I need to get it out where I can stretch it's legs some. I'm curious what it's 50-75 yard groups would look like. Been dicking around with making targets lately so I have to get back to trigger time.
My 177 Nova Freedom can reliably plink stuff out to 120 yards when there is no wind. No BS!
Haven't gone long distance enough to give an accurate evaluation on either of my 22 Nova Freedom nor 22 Seneca Aspen yet. Talking 100 yards and past that. Not yet but I have 2 Nova Freedoms in 22 and one is still in its box and was going to send it off to have it fitted with a Lothar Walther barrel but haven't gotten around since I was going to do the one that had the least accuracy out of 3 in 22.
HA
I am really not as bad as some others (who are WAY more HARDCORE than me) whom I know to buy FIVE of EACH to pick the most accurate gun to keep (I limit myself to only 3). You have to realize that it is a fact that when given a choice of several identical guns in the same caliber, there is bound to have ONE of them that shoots FAR BETTER than the norm. I have a handful of guns which I would never sell or trade no matter how much was offered which I have found to achieve the fabled half inch at 100 yards including for example an Edgun and RAW but I had gone through more than ten of them and none of the others could match their accuracy. Sometimes you get REALLY REALLY LUCKY coming across someone elses LAST KEEPER GUNS who decided to get out of the sport or ran into financial troubles. Once you come across a gun that stacks quarter inch groups consistently at 50 yards you will totally understand my logic and reasoning. Many had extensive work done with barrel replacement mostly with Lothar Walther FYI. I limit myself to three each max and just have the worst one rebarreled with a Lothar Walther. Funny thing is I don't shoot the most accurate or most expensive guns believe it or not and just use cheap guns to shoot regularly.
There are TWO exception to this, the Crosman 1701P economy target pistol I have three and 2 out of the 3 shoot a hair under half inch at 50 yards when using P-Rod .080 OEM transfer ports but I think I got lucky, the other one does about an inch at 50 that is fifty yards using a pistol (with carbine stock) and 10.1 inch Factory Crosman fitted Lothar Walther barrels! The lesser accurate one is going to be left as a pistol shooter with open sights with a smaller transfer port from 1720T or maybe use the factory TP and drill it out a hair to get 600fps and more shots.
Both of my 177 Umarex Gauntlets (one tuned and one straight out of the box) get identical sub half inch at 50 more average better than 3/8.
I was recently fortuneate to scoop up a lot of FWB 300s barreled actions (just barreled rceivers) a lot of them for a bulk sale $$$ and it would be rather interesting to see how well they do on other guns such as FXs in 177 since its the only caliber FX is not known for accuracy. A 177 is definitely going to be fitted to one of my FX Impacts for sure since the STX is less than sub par and can't outshoot either of my Gauntlets at 50 yards. Can you imagine the Gauntlets hands down spanking an Impact?
HA
Just my .02. I recently owned the Flash and the Aspen, both in .22 cal. I put a 4x16x50 on both and shot JSB 15.89 pellets. Sight in distance at 68 yards. Neither gun was barrel cleaned, and both were silicone lubed in right places. Both were shot approximately 200 times. I don't have the camera equipment to record targets shot, but whether this audience believes or not, both guns were very accurate-particularly the Flash. I was amazed with dime sized groups at 68 yards consistently. I used a cheap Chinese hand pump ($40 on eBay) for the Flash. The Aspen was stretched out to 98 yards for about 50 shots. I adjusted one and a half mil dots and consistently got less than 1" groups. All of the shooting was on sand bags, no adjustment to trigger as both were very acceptable right out of the box. Bottom line for me as a hunter: I would be confident with both guns to take squirrel and rabbit humanely out to 75 yards. Would switch to my 22/250 remington if I was serious about long range small game taking. The remington is spot on at 100 yards!
For the money, the Flash and Aspen are excellent shooters right out of the box, and the Aspen is the complete package ?
I was recently fortuneate to scoop up a lot of FWB 300s barreled actions (just barreled rceivers) a lot of them for a bulk sale $$$ and it would be rather interesting to see how well they do on other guns such as FXs in 177 since its the only caliber FX is not known for accuracy. A 177 is definitely going to be fitted to one of my FX Impacts for sure since the STX is less than sub par and can't outshoot either of my Gauntlets at 50 yards. Can you imagine the Gauntlets hands down spanking an Impact?
HA
With what I'm seeing from some of these budget guns nothing would surprise me. The triggers could use some work though. You are right about the same model shooting just a little different. I had three Mutants that all shot well,but one just edged out the others. Same with my Wildcats and AirForce .22's. I had an amazing shooting Talon that a Airforce nut wanted to regulate so I agreed to let him. Never shot as well. I really think he did a barrel swap while he had it.
My .177 FX guns have been pretty good on accuracy.
Vintage Tarantula.
My Verminator was my original "go to" gun until some short larger bore options kept it in the case.
Couple points about the FX .177 non accuracy from my perspective.
First... Pluric... that Tarantula is easily one of my top guns as far as looks. Love it. I have the beech stocked Timberwolf (two shot shuttle version) in .22 and it's been rock solid. I still kick myself for not picking up the walnut stocked RWS Excaliber when they were on sale years ago. I've searched for years for a Walnut stock to replace my beech, but come up short.
I also have the gen1 Verminator in .22 and love, love, love it... wish I'd have gotten in .177 instead of .22, but I cant complain.
In looking at some of your airsenal you've shared, and the fact that we both have taken an interest in cheaper guns to compare with the heavy hitters, seems we are a bit of a kindred spirit.
I did have a Royale in .177 that was exceedingly accurate......for about 50 shots, then would go to pot. Clean it and it would be accurate again. Seems that many others had the same issue with the ST barrels in .177 where that they would need frequent cleaning to maintain accuracy. I know I've spoke to it several times and have read about it often. I ended up selling the gun with the caveat to the buyer on cleaning. I've had no such issues with any of my .22's ST barrels and my .25 and .30 Royale/Boss, I've never cleaned the barrels and they have never failed me.
Couple points about the FX .177 non accuracy from my perspective.
In looking at some of your airsenal you've shared, and the fact that we both have taken an interest in cheaper guns to compare with the heavy hitters, seems we are a bit of a kindred spirit.
I did have a Royale in .177 that was exceedingly accurate......for about 50 shots, then would go to pot. Clean it and it would be accurate again. Seems that many others had the same issue with the ST barrels in .177 where that they would need frequent cleaning to maintain accuracy. I know I've spoke to it several times and have read about it often. I ended up selling the gun with the caveat to the buyer on cleaning. I've had no such issues with any of my .22's ST barrels and my .25 and .30 Royale/Boss, I've never cleaned the barrels and they have never failed me.
Now that you mention it. The last time I went to shoot the Tarantula it was pissing air from somewhere. Google didn't lead to seals or how to videos so I sent it to FX for a reseal. They broke something that had to come from Sweden and had the gun for awhile. Returned it with no charge for anything, not even shipping! They know I'm an FX whore and have had Ernest work on other guns but that was exceptional service! Anyway, long story to get to my point. I went to shoot it and it just didn't group as well as I remembered. Cleaned the barrel and it was back shooting great again.
I do have a Veminator Extreme in a .22. With the pellet barrel on it's an impressive shooter too.
Speaking of inexpensive guns holding their own....
It's funny you should say that. Utah Airguns wanted to have a used gun inventory. I was going to offer up some to start it up on a consignment set up. Admittedly I can't shoot the ones I have enough to justify them. Then I started to decide what to get rid of and did that mental "That's a good shooter" "I may shoot that one again"
Bottom line was I came up with a couple duplicate AirForce guns and springers. ? Found out I'm more of hoarder than I thought. ? So I will tell my kids to keep you in mind on the Estate Sale. ?
Key element to finding what you want is wanting something that actually exists... and if so, anywhere near what you're willing to pay. For instance, I'd like to find a gorgeous, twenty-something, buxom, red-head, contortionist; but none seem interested in my offers to buy them a beer!
Key element to finding what you want is wanting something that actually exists... and if so, anywhere near what you're willing to pay. For instance, I'd like to find a gorgeous, twenty-something, buxom, red-head, contortionist; but none seem interested in my offers to buy them a beer!
If you ever find that, please write another book and explain how you did it!!!
