I am wanting to get a .177 single shot PCP pistol carbine. If I had unlimited funds I would buy a Edgun Leshi. I will probably find something used with a $500 budget. The Crosman 1720T with butt stock seems to be the obvious answer. A FN 12 would be sweet. This gun will just be a plinking gun from 35 to 50 yard range. I also need something that is quiet, and accurate.
What options am I missing?
David Enoch
This is more for size comparison.
1720T
P700
Leshiy with a moderator
AirForce TalonP with a much needed DonnyFL Tatsu moderator.
I know you said PCP but sometimes I overlook other options with my tunnel vision.
Here is a Beeman P1 duel power with a Crosman stock on it. Was not a hard conversion and actually is mounted much more secure than the single screw Crosman guns. Pretty fun to shoot. Makes a great "Truck Gun" due to it's size.
Compared to a 1720T
I have not tried to make a stock for this one yet. But as a contender I would put it on your short list. Diana Bandit pistol. Magazine or single shot tray. $200 and it is a great little shooter. I've taken Pot Guts out to 40-50 yards with it rested on a fence. Best bang for the buck pistol I've found. Mine's a .22 but they come in a .177 too.
The Airforce Talon, with sound blocks added, would be another consideration. Compared to the TalonP with the moderator off, it's not that much longer.
Great post. Thanks for all the recommendations and comparisons.
I do own a P700 first gen. Where did you find the butt stock for the P700? I would have to add a moderator of some type. I don’t know how accurate the stock barrels are. I have considered modding the P700 with a Crosman 1720T barrel and shroud.
I also own a P1 but I think 35-50 yards may be a little long for the P1.
I thought about the AirForce Talon P. AirForce says you cannot use a .177 barrel with the Talon P. I was thinking a .177 barrel and micrometer tank might make a neat carbine. I don’t know how much weight or size you would save over a Talon SS.
Anyway, those were some of my thoughts.
David Enoch
Great post. Thanks for all the recommendations and comparisons.
I do own a P700 first gen. Where did you find the butt stock for the P700? I would have to add a moderator of some type. I don’t know how accurate the stock barrels are. I have considered modding the P700 with a Crosman 1720T barrel and shroud.
I also own a P1 but I think 35-50 yards may be a little long for the P1.
I thought about the AirForce Talon P. AirForce says you cannot use a .177 barrel with the Talon P. I was thinking a .177 barrel and micrometer tank might make a neat carbine. I don’t know how much weight or size you would save over a Talon SS.
Anyway, those were some of my thoughts.
David Enoch
It's been a while but I thought I bought it from a user named Vash545??? He had made one for himself and I liked the looks of it better than my Crosman conversion.
My Mrod Air MkII PP700 SA Adjustable Stock Solution | Airgun Talk | Airgun Warriors Forum
Airmax pistol stock - Yellow Airgun Forum Archive (tapatalk.com)
I'd made the Crosman conversion for my brother-in-law's P700 and he loved it. Stolen out of his truck two weeks ago.
Back to the AirForce consideration. The Talon has a 12 inch barrel. I did put the sound lock baffle kit in mine and it works! Personally I'd rather have the Talon over the TalonP. For me it shoulders better. I have a TalonSS as well. Just I enjoy the shortys better.
AirForce 12" Barrel, .177 Cal, Lothar Walther. Barrels. (pyramydair.com)
You can see it is quite a bit longer than the Talon. Small additional length with a regulator added to the top of the bottle on the blue SS.
Tried the 1701 and the M-Rod as pistol-pistols.....M-Rod really too big to be a good at that,the 1701 just enough smaller that it works as a pistol.
Both make pretty good carbines. Retrofitted an LW barrel to the .22 P-Rod,added iron sights, and shrounded the .177 1701. Removed the wooden grips to get them to be as "even"as I could.
Wife ended up liking the P700 (the old"bugger grip"version),so adapted that to a cracked grip/cutoff/Crosman shoulder stock.
Problems With those cheap plastic stocks are that they are kind of cheap/ugly, the cheek is too low,and they have a long length of pull.
Couple of Al. rods as a riser, shaped and painted wooden dowel cured that, made her's (P700) a shorter, but I can't really help their looks.
When I need short and seriously light,but not higher power...really no contest,the bullpup stays home.
Tried a few Crosmans built from 2240's/2250's...not bad,made nice little co2 carbines.
Accuracy:
Not really fair,as I put an LW barrel on the P-Rod,but it surprised me when the P700 would hang in there with group averages. Always a tiny bit larger averagesw (usually 4 groups of 5 shots), but talking a tiny bit (like 1/10th at 25 yards).
Being light...they are harder to shoot well from a bench.
Ya might consider the RAI conversions for Benjamin Marauder Pistols (BP2220), Crosman 17XX Series & Silhouette
Like I have not tried to make a stock for this one yet. But as a contender I would put it on your short list. Diana Bandit pistol. Magazine or single shot tray. $200 and it is a great little shooter. I've taken Pot Guts out to 40-50 yards with it rested on a fence. Best bang for the buck pistol I've found. Mine's a .22 but they come in a .177 too.
This is what I did with my Bandit:Add 12" barrel and new stock.
I have really appreciated your suggestions and pictures. It has been informative.
I had some problems last night with my hear racing and couldn't sleep. So, I was up after midnight watching you tube videos when I came across this folding stock made for the P700:
Then I started searching and found the stock here:
https://www.canadashootingsupply.ca/foldable-shoulder-stock-for-pp700sa-pistols.html
Including shipping to Texas it was about $40. I already have a 1st gen P700 with the green grip so that made the decision easier. I also have the Modular sound reduction system from MRod Air for my P12. They are supposed to make an adapter to use it on the P700. I have an email into them to see if it is available. I haven't shot the P700 much because it is too loud for my neighborhood. This doesn't get the power I was looking for but once I get this set up I will see what can be done to speed up the gun a little. Ideally, I would like at least 11 fpe from the rig.
David Enoch
Seems that gen 2 has a recall.
@davidenoch You should be able to adjust your pp700 to get 11fpe quite easily. I've had my .22 mrodair version firing over 30 fpe, although at that point you only get around 14-17 shots before your off regulator and need to refill. I expect in .177 you shouldn't have too much trouble, just a lot of fussing to get the regulator turned up enough but not too much. It does tend to be touchy on the adjustment, just go slow as a little goes a long way with that allen head adjustment screw. Should still be able to keep the hammer spring down a bit lower and just creep it up some for fine tuning and accuracy along with the transfer port screw for the super fine speed adjustments.
Can you give me any instructions on how to adjust the power? You can post it here, PM, or email me. Any instructions or pictures will be helpful. I have never attempted anything like that before.
Thanks, and I am encouraged that I can get the power up.
David Enoch
@davidenoch Sure, I actually need to go back and replace a bunch of leaking orings and service mine again since it got packed away for the better part of 3 years when we moved. I'll work something up again with some pictures over the next couple days (I think my version was technically considered a second generation at pp700sa, but it should be relatively close to the original pp700).
There has to be a tutorial online somewhere but I have not found it yet. I did more looking last night.
Thanks,
David Enoch
IF it's the old "bugger green grip"version bought in the U.S....it may already be at your power level. You already mentioned it was loud...which could indicate it was the "full power" type sold here (assuming the breech o-ring isn't the reason for the noise).
NO experince with a .177...bought the .22. MOst of my "tuning" (which was just adjuting) was in bringing the power level down to 15ish foot pounds....it came out the box fast. That likely would have equated to 11ish foot pounds in .177.
One quick check. Pivot open the breech block and measure the size of the transfer port. Old .22 came with a port of about .175" (will actually fit a .177 pellet inside). Don't know what a .177 came with.....but if it's at least .120", should be able to make the 11 foot pound goal.
Never touched the regulator, was factory set for something close to 100BAR, just fiddled with the hammer spring and transfer port restricting screw (on top of the pivoting block) to get the ,22 to slow down a bit.
They do get louder as they get more powerful....see a whole lot of pictures of add-on LDC's for a reason.
Could use calculations based on plentium volume and all that....I just kept filling it just above reg.pressure (1500) and shooting it past the reg-set pressure (down to 1300) until I couldn't really tell where it went off regulation. HAd the transfer port restriction screw about 1/4th the way down (can see it in the transfer port) for small adjustments.
That lack of drastic change when shooting a bit past reg.pressure has always been a good indication of a nice place to stop adjusting the hammer spring.
IF it's a bit slow or a bit fast,use that transfer port restriction screw.
One nice thing about the little pistol/carbine is that it can make +40 good uniform 15 foot pound shots from that little 65cc air tube.
@davidenoch All righty, finally got a chance to get my old gun torn down and serviced (took an initial 6 orings replaced followed by 2 more when it was still slowly leaking after fillup). Here's a bit of a quick and dirty guide for tuning the regulator/hammer spring that I've used on the few Artemis guns I've owned (including an Artemis m30 which more or less follows a similar procedure). It goes somewhat against what many tuning guides would probably say, particularly in regards to turning regulator pressure down without emptying the air first, but it's what has consistently worked for me with the artemis airguns specifically.
So first things first, you'll need allen wrenches in 4mm, 3mm, and 2.5mm sizes. I started with a completely empty air cylinder, my transfer port screw flush even, hammer spring screw just about flush even, and the regulator screw backed out solid towards the trigger. Some pictures with identifiers:
This little fella up top is the transfer port grub screw, start with that about flush even with the top of the swing arm.
The handle comes off with a hex screw and allows you to access the hammer spring, pictured after.
To start with adjust that hammer spring screw down into the handle so that the beginning of the screw is almost flush with the tapped hole. This can technically go a fair amount more in, but it will get a whole lot more difficult to cock and if you take it too far many times will overcome the poppet valve spring when you fire and completely discharge your air cylinder with a fairly impressively large "Whoosh!" that if you happen to be stuck using a hand pump, as I was when first attempting this years back, results in a string of curses that would make a drunken sailor blush.
The regulator is externally adjusted in front of the trigger going into the receiver/block. My gun is going to be slightly different since I specifically mounted my receiver in the mill and plunge cut out the access hole to be larger since originally the 4mm allen wrench kept digging into the hole and grinding against the sides. That said it does give you a better chance to see what I'm talking about. For the purposes of adjusting the regulator I would advise leaving the trigger guard off and winding the trigger adjustment screw on the top wall of the trigger almost flush even so you can get your allen wrench into that adjustment hole easier. Note here: When you fill up the gun and cock it and fire nothing will happen yet, don't freak out and continue to read on.
Now the gun gets filled and what you will need to do is start turning in that regulator screw (clockwise I believe it was) slowly and then begin to test shoot with some pellets over the chronograph. Again when you first shoot it probably wont do anything until the regulator screw gets turned in some more towards the air tube end. When it starts firing it's going to be shooting towards the upper end of the range given that hammer spring tension (not as high as maximally possible, but should be right up there a fair amount). At that point I continue to slowly crank it down until it's around the desired FPS/power for the given pellet and the accuracy starts pulling in reasonable.
For some chrony figures when I started this I had been turning in that regulator screw liberally for a few turns to get it to start shooting and it came in initially at 784 fps when it started (this probably would have been around 825-850 if I had been turning it shorter amounts, was going in roughly 90 degree turns). I turned it in further (small increments, say 15-30 degrees rotation) until it came down around 695-700 fps and had the CPHP 14.3 grain pellets pulling in reasonably tight at 25 yards. Here's where the regulator screw was sitting after that adjustment:
Now that it was sitting pretty on the regulator side the hammer spring comes next. Basically I started rolling the hammer spring back out from the hammer by 1/2 turns until the fps changed. As you roll it back it goes from being set much too high to getting about just about right, and it will have an initial bump in fps by around 10-15 points when you get near it before it will begin dropping back down again. The shot string I had went about as follows: 694, 698, 694, 696, 712 (this was the bump up at which point I continued turning it out), 703, 701, 705, 707, 710, 712, 705, 707, 703, 712 (final turn out after this brought it back), 694, 696, 689, 698, 698, 694. Here was the final stop point on my hammer spring adjustment:
At that point shots were were holding fairly consistent and grouping even better yet. The final adjustment at this point comes from the transfer port screw. That screw basically ends up having to get turned in a fair amount before it actually has any kind of effect, but it is very useful to maximize the air efficiency and fine tune the fps without dinking with the regulator or hammer spring. I did 1/4 (90 degree) rotation turns with the allen wrench until the fps just started dropping and kept it right about at that break point since it was shooting quite accurately and didn't need any further reduction. Here was my final stop point:
And that's basically all she wrote. This method worked on both my version of the SPA pp700sa as well as my Artemis m30 rifle (minus the transfer port part which that rifle doesn't have an adjustment for, only the regulator and hammer spring).
** As an edit I get approximately 17 shots with this setup (first couple shots have always shot slower after a refill on this gun) from a full fill that ends around 110-112 bar when where it falls off the regulator. 20 shot string at the end was as follows:
680, 684, 691, 696, 698, 696, 694, 698, 696, 701, 703, 703, 703, 703, 703, 703, 696, 687, 677, 673
**
Ribbonstone,
that was a VERY NICE write up!! Excellent! ??
David,
you were worried about the PP700 barrels....:
On GTA I read that most are very satisfied with their barrels.
If not, then there are solutions:
?A seller in Canada is selling barrels ($20), high quality barrels ($40), different stocks, wooden handgrips, Huma regulator, etc. for the PP700.
He is active on the GTA forum, screen name Wesbob — and he enjoys the highest level of confidence there, I had personal contact with him — great guy, ask him anything!
Link:
https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/?s=pp700
(make sure to change the webpage's currency to US $).
? I have the PP700S-A in .22cal and it is a gem.
Easily goes into any briefcase or backpack!
It's been taking pigeons at 40 and 50y easily.
Just last month I took it pesting at a cow farm, and between a Skyhawk and the PP700 the farmer was freed of 100 free loaders who normally steal his cow's feed and contaminate it while doing so.
?Scopes
My eyes aren't the greatest, so I need some magnification and clear glass.
I have a Discovery Compact VT-3 3-12x44 FFP on it — lots of performance in a supershort and light package, for under $200. Also comes as an SFP version .
Similarily short (and same price) is the Discovery HD 3-12x44 FFP, has IR and gridded reticle.
Both sold by Wesbob.
?Silencers
I need it very quiet, as the PP700 is my urban hunter. So, at 14FPE (.22cal) I definitely need a silencer.
Rocker1 (at GTA) makes a highly effective (real) carbon fiber silencer for it (maybe $35, but I don't remember, somewhere around that).
If you like a DonnyFl: I asked Donny and he wrote me that for his own PP700 .22cal he got the best performance out of a Sumo in .25cal (one size up, to avoid any clipping that might be due to Chinese low quality). Donny sells the necessary 1/2" UNF adaptor ($35, I think, JSAR sells one, too).
Have fun with that PP700!! It's a blast! ?
Matthias
You guys are amazing! Thank you my friends.
I know this will be saved a bunch of times be a lot of people. I know I will be saving a copy in the Enoch Archives. I pull stuff out of the Enoch Archives all the time and send them to people who are in need of some specific information. I know a lot of you do the same.
Thank you to everyone who has given me advice in this thread. If I was starting from scratch I would have bought the Crosman 1720T like a lot of you recommended. But since I had the P700 already and it looks like a viable option with the folding stock that is the route I am going.
David Enoch