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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 52
August 28, 2018 13:36:53  

I have a mk 1, HW77 ( I think that's what the Brits call them) and the underlever latch, which is a simple spring and ball affair, took off without a warning. I managed to find the ball after a painful half hour's search in the grass, but the spring, I am afraid, is lost.

I can buy the spring from UK airgun stores, but seems a bit pointless to order a spring from across the Atlantic. Is there a source here in the U.S? (I searched Pyramyd and they don't have it listed)

I had never looked at the latch end closely until this incident. I am not sure how I can keep the ball in. I can push it back in in with little effort and I am concerned that it will pop out again. How was the ball secured in the first place? And what can I do to avoid it exploding out again?

Thanks,

Roy

 


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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 264
August 28, 2018 14:50:04  

In today's market, you can easily buy these kinds of parts from a home depot or lowe's.  If you have a local fastenal, I guarantee they will have a near exact or exact replacement. 

This happened to me after assembling an R-1 months ago.  The included hex screws were too short once I placed the action in the stock.  Undeterred, I went to Home Depot to see what was available.  Lo and behold they had the exact same screws, only in different lengths.  Think it cost me a little under $2.  Additionally, I bought the correct washers that did not come with the original screws.  Now I can say the gun is better than new - whatever that means.

https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24776/HW77/

 

 


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airmojo
(@airmojo)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 223
August 28, 2018 14:51:41  

Don't really know the answer... I was looking at a schematic diagram on Chambers website to see it.

I have an HW77 .20 carbine... looks like mine is a MK2 according to the schematic.

I bet the ball bearing on yours is press fitted into the end... once the ball and spring is inserted, the end may need to be squeezed to retain them.

I wonder if it can be updated to a MK2 or Mk3 lever retainer ?

I'm sure someone will know for sure... or you might have to contact an expert like Jim Maccari, or Tim McMurray (is he still around?).


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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 52
August 28, 2018 16:47:51  

That's a good idea. I will measure the hole in which the spring fits and then try to find something similar. Seems as long as sufficient spring pressure is there to hold the ball, it should do the job without needing to be too precise. 

Thanks,

Roy


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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 52
August 28, 2018 16:54:29  

I too thought of replacing the front sight assembly to a mark 2/3 version which has the added benefit that I can put a globe sight on. Then I looked online and saw one youtube video where this guy cheerfully advised one to be "brave" in hammering out the front sight from the barrel. I don't think I'm that brave! 

I am not sure how to squeeze the end in: some online commentators said "dimple" it-- whatever that means. If the replacement pops out, I'll have it sent to someone and have it serviced/ tuned in the process. After 35 years and thousands of rounds the gun deserves a repair and tune. 

Roy


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 891
August 28, 2018 18:11:02  

well I have been searching around and the front sight comes off with heat and a wooden block to tap it off and that is nothing new

if the ball will just roll out it would have to come of so it could be restaked in, so of it comes

but was looking for parts and if you look at the bottom of this page you will find a mk3 unit at I would say a great price item v93, is it complete I don't know

 

http://www.proteksupplies.co.uk/weihrauch-parts.html

the factory part number on your missing spring in 9017 and in any case HW parts are pricey

so in the long run you or someone will have to take the front off to fix the problem

wish I had more to offer

take care

mike


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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 52
August 29, 2018 00:02:36  

Thanks very much for the link. I will try to buy a spring locally and if that doesn't work I guess I'll order it from U.K. I read up a bit on removing the front sight-lever catch assembly-- it's quite beyond my skills to heat up the assembly and remove it. Also seems a bit sacrilegious to treat a mk 1 spring airgun legend quite that roughly! 

Thanks again for doing all the digging up online. Appreciate it.

Best,

Roy


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 891
August 29, 2018 16:10:34  

well if you send the gun to someone there going to heat it up and use a block of wood and pound it off

sometimes that is the way to remove parts, I can not find a close up picture of the part area, so I'm guessing it is staked in some way and that staking has failed allowing the ball and spring to fall, fly, out

you sure can't stake that area with it on the gun and how the factory did this is not know by me  so it's up to you but the spring is the leased of your problems, keeping them in place is  


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bf1956
(@bf1956)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 200
August 29, 2018 16:24:29  

To dimple it is by taking a small auto center punch and dimple nice and easy and evenly all a round the latch retaining drum.


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 891
August 30, 2018 02:40:31  

how was the setup manufactured in the first place, I don't own a 77 and can't find any close up picture

was the spring and ball installed and then dimpled or staked or was it manufactured with it being undersized and everything loaded from the front

yes I agree and auto center punch might be the easy fix, zip tie the ball back and you could get 4 dimples in and add 2 more with the tie removed but the spring better be of the right strength

 


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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 52
August 30, 2018 11:19:20  

I have to admit my knowledge of matters technical is rather limited, which is just a fancy way of saying, I have no idea! From what I could gather the spring and ball must have been inserted from the end where the lever latches-- after all they popped out through that end and must have been of the same diameter-- and then somehow they were kept it. The hole at the other other end( pening towards the where the barrel points) is too small in diameter for inserting the ball or spring. I wonder why that hole is even there.

Let me see if I can take a few photos later today and post. 


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AndyT
(@andyt)
Joined: 3 weeks ago
Posts: 2
July 20, 2020 12:27:19  

I know it's nearly two years since the last post but I recently repaired a Mk1 HW77 under lever spring ball detent without having to heat and drift off the front sight block.  Removing the block is the "professional way" but it worried me like it did an earlier poster here.  The spring is not very strong and is simply inserted in the semi blind hole followed by the 8mm dia steel ball.  I was advised (for free) by a kind local gunsmith not to use an automatic centre punch (which was my idea) but to look closely at the block and you will see it is 'staked' with four equally spaced rectangular depressions.  The sort of thing you can make with a suitably modified flat screwdriver blade.  I found a long style (50mm) hex slotted screwdriver bit and carefully ground down the slotted end until it exactly fitted the existing depressions in the foresight block which staked the ball in. It needed reducing in width to 2mm and thickness to nearly a knife edge, and I just used an oil stone.

Then came the repair.  I needed a friend to hold the rifle vertical with barrel down and the foresight resting on my small anvil with a piece of card for protection. I then put the spring in followed by the ball.  I used a small CK adjustable pipe wrench set to squeeze the ball down flush into the hole. You don't need any force but I just used the pipe wrench as you can adjust the jaws to give a parallel closing at 40mm gap which equals the length of the foresight hole. In fact I held the pipe wrench closed with just a single thin rubber band.  So with spring and ball in place and held by the wrench jaws and the rifle held vertical and resting on the end of the sight block, NOT touching the crown at the end of the barrel, I could locate the hex screwdriver bit into one of the existing depressions and then give just a gentle tap. The sight block is not steel but some softer non ferrous alloy so a light tap worked.  Then progress around to do all four of the detents.

Not expecting it to work as easily or as well as it did I had also covered myself and the rifle with fine horticultural mesh so just in case the ball sprung out it would stop it flying too far and getting lost.

The ball was retained and the catch repaired at my first attempt, in fact slightly too far down the hole as the under lever would rattle very slightly when closed.  Now the hole in the foresight the ball fits into is mostly 8mm dia, with the far end reduced to 4mm.  So a fine adjustment was performed by using a small metal drift through the 4mm hole at the far end of the tube and with a VERY gentle tap re-seat the ball into the new detents just made.  This allowed the steel ball to move out just a fraction of a mm more, but still firmly retained, and it now holds the under lever without rattle. The finished repair together with the tool I fashioned out of a hex drill bit are shown in the photo below.

HW77 underleaver catch repair S

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landmass
(@landmass)
Joined: 1 month ago
Posts: 5
July 22, 2020 08:02:20  

@andyt  Good job, Andy.  You can hide the punch marks with a black magic marker - I do that all the time with my firearms.  My HW77 gave me the same problem - the ball and spring flew out twice.  Both times in the woods, and I was lucky enough to find the parts both times.  The HW77 is my favorite rifle, so I was determined to fix it.  Mine doesn't have any release button, you just pinch between the barrel and the cocking lever and it opens right up.  I had a HW77K which had the sliding release switch and it annoyed me so much that I sold the rifle(of course I regret it now).  My solution was the the same as yours, but both repairs failed to get the ball to seat deep enough and right now it looks like the ball is about to pop out again(Pic 1).  I just wasn't tapping the punch hard enough for fear of the alloy metal breaking off.  Now that I know it will take a harder strike, I will revisit the problem today and see what I can do.  My approach began by fabricating a metal block(Pic 2) that the front of the gun sat on/in and I did this to prevent the front sight assembly from possibly sliding forward due to the striking of the ball area.  I put a block of wood into the open sliding breech - just in case the tapping causes the sear to release.  A wooden dowel rod holds the ball in while the tapping is done.  The whole set-up looks a little crazy, but it works.

IT'S ONE HOUR LATER:  Well, it worked fine.  I did break off one of the stab crimps, but the rest of the work will hold it just fine(Pic 3).  Now, I don't have to worry about losing the ball again.  The ball is a little deep, but the cocking handle doesn't make any noise.  If a problem develops because the ball is too deep, I'll just do what you did and tap it out a little from the other side.

 

SAM 2054a
SAM 2044
SAM 2058

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AndyT
(@andyt)
Joined: 3 weeks ago
Posts: 2
July 23, 2020 18:06:16  

@landmass:  Glad yours worked out okay too.  Yes I will try the pen blacking / bluing idea as I guess the steel bluing liquids don't work on non-ferrous. I like your idea of the little block with the two holes - nice one. That would have gone well with my fabricated rectangular punch made from a hex screwdriver bit.  Yes it was surprisingly soft metal and I did the blacksmiths tap, tap, TAP but very lightly, and as I said even that kept the ball in too far by maybe 0.5mm at first but the drift from the muzzle end with a very very light tap re-seated the ball just fine. Now holds with maybe a just detectable rattle but that means the ball is held in as much as possible so I like that and hopefully it won't spring out for some while.  Only fired just under 50 shots so far and okay.  Interesting to hear you did not like the slide to release Mk2 catch. I also have a very old Relum Tornado which has the sprung ball in the underleaver rather than in the fixed part.


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landmass
(@landmass)
Joined: 1 month ago
Posts: 5
July 27, 2020 22:10:29  

@andyt We both did a good job, and saved our precious HW77's.  I've seen pictures of the front sight being hammered off - and it is BRUTAL!!  It sent chills up my spine and I knew immediately that I had to come up with an alternative solution.  Good luck to you.

David


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JohnnyPiston
(@johnnypiston)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 116
July 28, 2020 09:27:35  

My cherished HW77 MK1 (1983 production, IIRC) is in mint condition with the Weihrauch hang tag. All original and shoots 11+ fpe with wonderful accuracy after all these years. Impressive. You better believe I'm careful everytime I close that underlever: once that plastic foresight/underlever detent assembly breaks that's it, they're no longer available.


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landmass
(@landmass)
Joined: 1 month ago
Posts: 5
July 29, 2020 14:49:07  

@johnnypiston My HW77 was made in 1984 and it's my favorite air rifle.  It was my first air rifle and I bought it from a gun shop in about 1987.  I didn't know what I had at first, but found out through my research.  It was also offered with a Tyrolean stock which I longed for because it looks so damned elegant with it.  When I first bought the rifle, a man in Michigan offered me 3 - YES THREE Beeman HW77 Tyrolean stocks for $125 each.  I turned down the offer and still regret it to this day.  But, I ordered a beautiful Black American Walnut blank from California and had it shipped to a stock-maker in North Carolina, who duplicated a Tyrolean stock that was 95% finished.  I finished it up, and sent the stock to Oregon for fine checkering.  It turned out pretty good and I finally got my Tyrolean stock, not a Beeman, but still a very nice looking piece of wood.

Johnny, you say your front sight assembly is made of plastic?  I agree with you that they're no longer available, but I'm not sure about the plastic front sight assembly.  You should check that out again - mine is metal.  Do you know what year your 77 was made?  To find out for sure, check this website:

https://www.weihrauch-database.eu/dywp#

SAM 1992cropt
SAM 1997cropt
SAM 1995cropt

 


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JohnnyPiston
(@johnnypiston)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 116
July 29, 2020 16:41:35  

@landmass

 

We may have twins, just checked again and mine per the SN database sight was probably made in 1984.

Your 77 is beautiful. Who knows, maybe one day I'll dress up my 77 in fancy clothes, too.

 

Yes, you're absolutely right: I meant the plastic assembly that houses the underlever detent and foresight. Foresight is indeed metal.


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JohnnyPiston
(@johnnypiston)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 116
July 30, 2020 13:04:13  

Doh!! The part I referred to earlier is indeed alloy. MK2's on forward were steel. Man that alloy somehow looks and feels like plastic🤔😂

 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
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Posts: 663
August 2, 2020 21:36:55  
 Posted by: @functor

I have a mk 1, HW77 ( I think that's what the Brits call them) and the underlever latch, which is a simple spring and ball affair, took off without a warning. I managed to find the ball after a painful half hour's search in the grass, but the spring, I am afraid, is lost.

I can buy the spring from UK airgun stores, but seems a bit pointless to order a spring from across the Atlantic. Is there a source here in the U.S? (I searched Pyramyd and they don't have it listed)

I had never looked at the latch end closely until this incident. I am not sure how I can keep the ball in. I can push it back in in with little effort and I am concerned that it will pop out again. How was the ball secured in the first place? And what can I do to avoid it exploding out again?

Thanks,

Roy

 

There are a lot of posts in this thread. I didn't read them all. If this has already been said, please pardon the duplication.

I've read about the same problem a lot of times. So far, I've never heard of anyone who's been able to successfully get the ball and spring back in there, and have them stay. Everyone I ever read about bought a new cocking lever, complete with the ball and spring inside. However, the word "impossible" is a very large word. To say it's impossible would probably be a mistake. Maybe somebody's even done it before.

Now though, whether you repair your existing lever, or buy a new one, let's talk about prevention of a reoccurrence of the problem in the future. There is a better and a worse way to use the lever, to keep from ever having the problem again.

As you've already seen, the ball and spring are held into the end of the lever by a crimp on the end of the lever. If the crimp gives away, the ball and spring fly out, just like you had happen.

If you're in the habit of quickly opening the lever, even to the point of jerking it open, that ball bearing hits the crimp very hard, every time you open the lever. Sooner or later, the crimp is going to give out.

Owners who have learned to gently squeeze the lever closed, and gently open it past the lock up, have found that they don't have that problem anymore, as a rule. That's the key. A gentle opening, and a gentle squeeze shut.

However you take care of your problem, I hope it doesn't happen to you again. That kind of thing is much more than annoying, to say the least. It can stop a good day of planned shooting dead in its tracks. You don't want that.


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Ed Canoles
(@nced)
Joined: 2 months ago
Posts: 24
August 3, 2020 08:32:33  

@ekmeister

Interesting thread because I had the same thing happen with my HW77k  when it was practically new (less than a year old).

My "let loose" happened upstairs when practicing so I was able to retrieve my parts and this is the fix I did..........

 

I noticed that from the factory the "plunger" was retained by only a weak c-clip that let go, however, to replace the bad c-clip with a good one the "plunger assembly" needed to be removed from the cocking lever. The "plunger retaining assembly" was retained by "staking" the lever tube into the "plunger retaining assembly. There was no way to remove the "plunger retaining assembly" without some "surgery" so the above pic shows my fix which was reliable for over a decade till I sold the HW77k shortly after moving to North carolina.

As the pic explains, I first drilled out the "cocking lever staking" which allowed the "plunger retaining assembly" to be removed. I reassembled the plunger, spring and a home made steel ring to replace the lost c-clip. The steel ring was then crimped into the "c-clip retaining groove" to never "let loose" again without cutting the ring. To retain the "plunger assembly" in the cocking lever tube I used a cut off spring pin in the drilled out "factory staking" and pressed it in place.


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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Posts: 663
August 3, 2020 13:58:20  

@nced

I enjoyed your post. 

I know there's not much in the way of a mechanical fix thats above and beyond your 'tinkering' capabilities. You would be among the group of a select few, that is, those who I said could actually repair that contraption.

Thanks again for the nice tutorial, including the photo.


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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 52
August 3, 2020 15:05:02  

@ekmeister

I sent it for repair to John Thomas (John in PA) and he did repair that latch along with tuning the rifle. Don't know whether he checks this forum but he might be able to explain how he did it. I don't think he took the front sight base off; if he did he put it back without any sign of removal. He also did a very fine job of tuning an already fantastic airgun and made it near perfect at least for my needs.

Since then-- almost two years now-- I have shot at least another thousand pellets through that HW77 and it has worked flawlessly. However I have been careful while opening and closing the underlever since that experience. I will be even more careful after you explained how it can recur if one is too quick. This HW77 is really my most loved airgun with phenomenal accuracy and I don't want it to go back for repair again any time soon. 


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bf1956
(@bf1956)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 200
August 3, 2020 15:22:27  

 I have always opened and closed with a push of the detent button, kind of like you would never slap your SxS or o/u, revolver closed.


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airmojo
(@airmojo)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 223
August 3, 2020 16:01:09  

When and which version of the HW77 eliminated the steel ball & spring ? The MK4 ?

Looks like there are different setups between the MK1, MK2, and MK3 using the steel ball & spring.

I have Beeman import HW77K that has a thumb lever on the underside of the front sight assembly that releases the cocking lever...

Just trying to figure out what version it is... I haven't been able to find a schematic and parts diagram for it... jut the MK1,2,3 version.


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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August 3, 2020 16:33:41  

@functor

Thanks for the recommendation of your tuner's capabilities.

It would be rare that I would ever ask for tutoring to do this work from another tuner, especially on an air rifle that I already have a lot of experience with. Plus, I've done quite a bit of paid tuning work myself over these past 20 years or so, as well as a lot of other mechanical work that goes back decades further than that. And, some of it was pretty complicated stuff.

Let me explain my position on how I approach taking care of the broken cocking lever problem on the HW77.

I feel 100% sure I could handle the repair. But, since it seems I almost always have other work waiting, I'm usually just going to recommend that someone buy a new cocking lever, or, perhaps repair it themselves, if they have that ability.

Besides, while I know the lever isn't cheap, my charge to do the repair wouldn't be cheap, either, since it would take quite a bit of my time. I'm assuming here that someone would feel it's fair to charge for the labor that's above the scope of a normal tuning job. Another poster further up the thread describes what is involved, and I certainly feel it would be fair to pay him for doing that.

Don't get me wrong. When I have the time for it, and someone is getting my better tuning job, or I'm just plain feeling bored and generous, lol, I've even thrown in such things for free, or almost for free. That's especially been true in the case of my repeat customers.

But, I can't do that on a regular basis, and justify how it's keeping me away from the work of my other paying customers, or just plain taking me away from my personal time to do other things. Friends and family time is a priority for me, for instance, and I sure wouldn't want to neglect that if I can help it. Hopefully, people consider that position to be understandable.

Again, though, thanks.


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functor
(@functor)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 52
August 3, 2020 17:34:31  

@ekmeister

I feel I have offended you. I certainly did not wish to. I apologize if it seemed I was recommending any tuner to you. I had, in fact, quite forgotten about this thread until it was resurrected recently and it seemed fair to share my experience of how my problem was solved and give credit where it was due. I was certainly not questioning your ability. I am very sorry if that's the impression I gave. 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
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August 3, 2020 18:07:29  

@functor

It's nice of you to be considerate of my position and feelings. However, you didn't do anything wrong. You were just sharing your own experience, and trying to be helpful. I know that, and, there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

Let me explain a little more about what I wrote, then you'll probably understand why I wrote it.

There's been more than one thread on this forum where I made a comment, being a tuner myself you understand, and someone recommended another tuner for doing the work that I just described in my post. And, it wasn't John, either. It was someone else. Then, another someone else. And, on and on it goes.

I may not be the most famous tuner. In fact, I know I'm not. But, I have been doing the work for a long time, and, I am competent, having worked on at least a couple of hundred air guns over the years. And, there have been many posters on this very forum who have used my services, and have been pleased with the results.

Therefore, I just didn't want it to look like I didn't know how to rectify the problem that was described. I had a concern that some might have gotten that impression.  The thing is, I have my own way of approaching the problem. I feel like it is to the benefit of both my customers, and myself.

So, no harm, no foul. Thanks again for being nice enough to make your post. Your etiquette is sterling, and a good example of how to be a good and positive contributor on a forum like this.


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