(Disclaimer: I'm sorry, I was absent the day they taught 'how to abbreviate a dissertation'--I would have asked someone else to do it for me, but they probably couldn't have stood to read it. I'll work on it). (If you can read through this, it will pay you some good dividends).
I definitely 'love me some springers', but springer accuracy can be daunting. We all know it, whether fan or foe. There are numerous reasons for that. They range from poor build quality to less-than-ideal hold technique, and everything in-between.
But, I've found that there's one common thread that sort of ties all the other accuracy problems together. It's accuracy problems caused by loose stock screws. You might think the solution is easy: just add a little (blue) Lock-Tite (or generic) to the screws, and snug them up nicely when you install them. Surely, that's going to take care of it, right!!?? Well, maybe not so fast...
I want to start by explaining both the root of the problem and its solution: First, let's assume that you already have your sighting system securely attached to the receiver--Allen screws, all that stuff. So, when I mention, "the receiver" here, I really mean both the receiver and its sights. So...
The Problem, Theory Explained: The stock is the part of a rifle you hold to--hopefully--send the pellet accurately on its way to target. Given: The receiver needs to stay aimed in the same direction you aim the stock, or none of it works right. That's because you don't hold the receiver, it's a separate part. You hold only the stock.
In an ideal world the stock and receiver would always function as a single unit, so that where the stock stayed or went, the receiver did, too. That works. OTOH, if the stock moves in one direction, and the receiver in another, it's going to be a problem. So we need to do something to prevent that from happening.
The Crux of the Solution--i.e. the Stock Screws: Since we don't dip our springer stocks and receivers into a giant vat of epoxy like we would some battered chicken into a big kettle of hot oil, we're forced to 'weld' the stock to the receiver in some other way. Specifically, we have to use our stock screws, usually only 3 or 4 of them, and they're rather small in comparison to the parts they hold and the job they have to do. We ask a lot out of them if you think about it, so, "What can we do to help them do their job in the best way possible?"
The answer is 'simple stupid', and by that I mean no insult to anyone. Now, if you're not having accuracy problems with your springer, and your stock screws are never loose when you check them, feel free to skip this post and have some fun doing something else. Obviously, you're already doing it right. But, some years back I read a method that was described on the Old Yellow for installing stock screws with thread-locking compound, and it was just wrong, period. I've never read anything that corrected the error, either. I would never drop a name. This post is about the method, not the person.
(If your stock is synthetic, you can skip the next couple of paragraphs, because so far I've never run into a synthetic stock whose material compressed under the stock screws like wood does. But, what follows after than about using Lock-Tite on the stock screws still applies. And, please read the "Caution" at the very-bottom of this post to avoid a dangerous situation that will arise if you misuse Lock-Tite on your synthetic stock).
First, Prepare Your Wooden Stock--Hardening the wood near the front screws on your wooden stock:
Before you proceed to install the stock screws themselves, the wood with which they are in contact needs to be hard-enough to keep it from being compressed by the screws when they're tightened, even after those screws have been in there for a good long while. Why? If the wood isn't hard-enough, even if you do everything else correctly, over time the wood will likely compress, and a gap will be left in-between the head of the screw and the wood. (Yes, even worse on soft beech than on hard walnut, maple, etc). When that happens, once again you have loose screws--not good. This primarily tends to be a problem on the front two 5 mm screws on the side of the fore-end of a stock, like the ones on the R1, HW77, RWS/Diana 34 as examples (I won't name them all). There's usually a lot more wood strength due to thickness where the main trigger guard screw is installed, so you can usually torque it down a little more without causing any serious damage.
Preparing to harden the wood: You'll need a small tube of 'runny' or 'thin' Super Glue C/A, 3 or 4 cotton swabs, a paper towel, and a small piece of 4/0 steel wool if you have a spill onto a surface that shows. Don't buy cheap or old glue--you'll be wasting your time. And, don't use the 'gel' versions of Super Glue/ cyanoacrylate--the gel isn't thin-enough to penetrate down into the pores in the wood, and that's what you're after.
For use after you've hardened the wood, you'll also want to buy two 5 mm metric flat washers, one for each side of the stock, to use in-between the head of the screw and the wood. (Screw cups with Allen screws are sort of a different animal, but hardening the wood is still the right thing to do).
Remove the receiver from the stock. If your stock has serrated lock washers on those front 2 screws, or has spring-type lock washers resting directly against the wood, I suggest you throw them away or use them for something else. The serrated type tends to fight you when you try to tighten a screw as much as it helps to keep screw heads from loosening, and either type can chew-up the wood pretty badly over time if it's in direct contact--that's where the new flat washers come in.
Getting ready to move: Give yourself some elbow room, because some of this next part where you apply the Super Glue needs to be done pretty-quickly, even-more-so if you're not too precise as to where you apply the glue, or how much glue you apply. You're going to be doing one side of the stock at a time.
Lay the stock down on either side first, and have the paper towel ready to soak-up any runs that occur onto the finish of the stock as quickly as possible. FWIW, I always wear a pair of reading glasses when I do this, because precision is a big plus. Drop about 2 or 3 drops of glue down onto the 'open' wood grain where the screw head rests when installed, and quickly whirl a cotton swab around the perimeter so the whole area is covered, and any excess glue is soaked-up. While the swab is still wet, you can swirl the swab around the ID of the hole itself to harden that part of the wood, too. That gives the area even more strength. (Note: I tend to stay ready to move my face away from the stock if necessary, because the C/A apparently reacts with polyurethane, and fumes often start to rise in a small plume of smoke. I don't know that breathing the odiferous gas is a good idea).
Immediately look-for any glue that runs down through the screw hole and wipe it up ASAP with the paper towel. Also, if you accidentally got some glue on the side of the stock that's facing the ceiling, wipe that off ASAP too. (Any small traces can be removed after the glue is set, with some VERY-careful buffing of the finish with the 0000 steel wool).
The glue will usually be fully-set in less than 1 minute at the most. At that point you can start any clean-up that needs done. Then, turn the stock over and repeat the same process on the wood down inside the other screw hole. With that, you're done.
Now, if you read all of that and can stand to read any further, this gets a lot easier. It still needs to be done right. This is where that method I read about on the Old Yellow fell short in a pretty-big way.
It said to carefully-de-grease the threads of the stock screws and in the receiver with something like acetone (correct), apply a small amount of Lock-Tite to both the male and female threads (correct, and I've found that a toothpick is very-good for removing any excess Lock-Tite on the threads), then install the screws until snug (yes), and let the rifle sit overnight before doing any shooting (nope-nope-nope--lol).
What's wrong with that?
If you do it exactly as described in that last step, after you've shot your first 5 or 10 pellets, the receiver will have immediately jumped-around inside the stock, and moved to its 'favorite', 'original', or hollowed-out spot inside the stock, and there will be gaps formed in-between the screw heads and the wood. That means all stock screws, front and rear. With the stock and receiver not able to remain in unison as was your original intent, inaccuracy will surely be the result. (You PCP guys are getting a good laugh out of this, aren't you? It's OK).
Instead, do it this way...
Actual Stock Screw Installation: Assuming you've already hardened the wood (if that applies to your stock), de-greased all related threads, and have applied the Lock-Tite to the threads, go ahead and install the screws and snug them up nicely. There's no need to 'gorilla-hand' the tightness of the screws, especially not yet, and especially if your screws have Allen heads. It's easy to over-tighten an Allen type stock screw if you're using the long-arm part of an Allen wrench, because it allows you to use so-much torque compared to a regular screwdriver).
Now, immediately shoot 5 or 6 pellets into a backstop or whatever, and check the screws again to see if they're still snug. If your rifle is like every one I've ever worked on, you'll be able to tighten the screws by another 1/10 of a turn or so. Then immediately shoot 5 more pellets, and check the screws again. They'll probably move just a little more, which is good. But, go ahead and do it a 3rd time. With that step, you probably won't get much more movement out of the screw head. That tells you the stock has 'found its home in the stock' for the most part. If you found you got a lot of movement in the previous tries, it won't hurt anything to do it again, etc. But, I think you'll soon find there's no more tightness to be had.
At that point you can let the Lock-Tite set-up as per the directions on the label. Even a few hours is pretty-good, but, yes, overnight is great.
After the rifle has sat overnight, you can check the screws one more time to see if anything has changed with any looseness of the screws. Keep in mind a couple of things about the blue version of Lock-Tite: 1. When you go to check it after its set-up, you may have to give the screw just a tiny bit more torque than you might think is necessary, to break the bond and allow the screw to move to its new position. 2. You might think that doing that (breaking the bond) will have destroyed the grip it can maintain on the threads, but IME that's not the case. The set-up compound that remains on the screws will hold again at its new position after being moved and still keep the screws tight.
It doesn't hurt to re-check the stock screws after 50 more shots, and maybe again after a couple of hundred more shots. If you see what I'm getting at, things should stabilize pretty-quickly with a little time and shooting.
I should add one last point: I mentioned that it can take a little extra torque to get a screw moving once it's been set-up in Lock-Tite, and that's true. But, it can be easy to mistake 'some needed tightening' for the crushing and thus damaging wood fibers under the head of a screw. So, again, while you want to have your screws properly-tight, you definitely don't want to damage your stock. I've seen that before: I had one stock come in here whose wood was so-thin at the front screw holes that I had to rebuild them to a proper thickness using JB Weld. It's even possible to pull a screw all the way through the stock at that front end location where the wood tends to be fairly thin. Then, a full-blow repair--like drilling out the wood and gluing-in pieces of a dowel rod--has to be done so the rifle can be shot again. When I send a tuned rifle back to a customer, and include a note to remind him to check the stock screws from time to time, I often tell him: think 'snug', NOT 'tight'.
If you use the above tips, I absolutely believe that you will eventually-encounter a springer somewhere whose accuracy was thought to be beyond reach, but that just needed the stock screw remedy(s) correctly-applied. (R7's et al are so-calm they aren't as subject to loose screw problems, and the R7/HW30s doesn't even have any screws on the front and sides of its stock). I think I can say this better: the harder recoiling your springer is, the more it will be subject to the screw-tightness problem I described, and the more important the solution I described will become.
(A caution re: the use of Lock-Tite on 'plastic' or 'synthetic' stocks, like the RWS 34 Panther, and some Gamo models, for instance: Lock-Tite and other thread-locking compounds with the same base liquid: Lock-Tite can dissolve a plastic stock, and it can do it fast! It says it right on the tube or bottle. If that happens, your air rifle may become dangerous to cock and or shoot. There was a case years ago where someone's Gamo stock dissolved/melted and when they went to cock the gun, the main trigger screw pulled-through the stock and the receiver hit them in the forehead, causing serious injury. You might want to search for another thread-locking compound that doesn't have the problem. Or, you might be like one of my past customers, and choose to use Teflon tape on your stock screws, instead. I own an RWS 34 Panther myself. In my case, I was able to avoid a problem by applying 2 thick coats of polyurethane varnish all around the areas wherever the Lock-Tite could come into contact with the stock material. I've had the gun apart since then, and there were no signs of damage). (End of this caution).
My thanks to Marc for suggesting his superior method to me of how to harden the wood near screw holes--the way I did it before I started using his method worked, but it took a lot longer.
Ed... sounds like good sound advice.
On my R1, HW77K, R9TK, and HW95TK, I installed the brass screw cups from M**1 that also came with the hex head screws... got these many years ago, and they seem to work well, but I best check them for snugness again.
I have other springers where the screw cups were not available, at least back then, so I'm definitely going to try your "hardening the wood" method.
The first spring-piston air rifle that I bought was a Beeman FX-2, made in Spain, probably by Norica, back in 1989. I shot that thing a lot, with just open sights, and eventually discovered that the stock screws kept getting loose, so I would crank them back down... I figured they just vibrated loose... I don't think they had any kind of washer installed from the factory, but maybe they did... I think I may have added them myself... may have actually got this advice from one of the first airgun forums, like the Airgun Letter, or JM's Delphi Airgun forum... pretty sure, I used some blue Loc-Tite too.
Fortunately the wood never got smashed by the screws... this will be one of the first airguns that I will try the Super-Glue hardening method... I will also see if I can find better screws with allen heads... I have several others to consider doing as well that do not have brass screw cups installed.
While reading your post, I was wondering about hardening the other side of the hole, near the "receiver"... seems like that would make sense too, especially on the stocks that I already have the brass screw cups installed... a little hardening sure couldn't hurt, you think ?
If you were going to install brass screw cups, it seems like it would be a good idea to do the hardening beforehand as well.
Are brass screw cups still available from vendors ?
I know guys often machine their own, but I'm not setup to do that.
Ed... sounds like good sound advice.
On my R1, HW77K, R9TK, and HW95TK...but I best check them for snugness again.
I have other springers...so I'm definitely going to try your "hardening the wood" method.
The first spring-piston air rifle that I bought was a Beeman FX-2, made in Spain...and eventually discovered that the stock screws kept getting loose, so I would crank them back down... I figured they just vibrated loose... I don't think they had any kind of washer installed from the factory, but maybe they did... I think I may have added them myself... may have actually got this advice from one of the first airgun forums, like the Airgun Letter, or JM's Delphi Airgun forum... pretty sure, I used some blue Loc-Tite too.
Fortunately the wood never got smashed by the screws... this will be one of the first airguns that I will try the Super-Glue hardening method... I will also see if I can find better screws with allen heads....
While reading your post, I was wondering about hardening the other side of the hole, near the "receiver"... seems like that would make sense too, especially on the stocks that I already have the brass screw cups installed... a little hardening sure couldn't hurt, you think ?...
Ken, just note that if you got one of the HW77's with a laminated stock (or was that only the HW97?--I can't remember), the laminates aren't as susceptible to crushing of the wood as a regular wooden stock. Those lams are pretty-hard. I think that's because of the way almost all wood laminates are made--layers of wood held-together-by, pressure-treated-with, or maybe even immersed-in epoxy at some point in the manufacturing process.
That said, I worked on a blue-gray laminate stock on which I had to do a stock repair, that one was a nickel-plated HW97 for sure. When I wanted to touch-up/hide the repaired area, I was able to successfully do that very-easily by using some polyurethane. The stock soaked it right up slicker than a whistle. My point is that the Super Glue should also easily soak into the wood. Now, as to whether it's really NEEDED on a hard laminate stock, I can't say for sure. But it's an easy and cheap fix, so it's not going to hurt anything. Call it "some extra insurance" at the very-worst.
I seem to remember that the FX-2 was a Norica rifle. I think I saw and worked-on a grand total of 1 (that's ONE) of them in the past 20 years. So, washers are always a good idea, but for all I remember, they might have had 4 mm stock screws on the front, or some other size.
You're right. Hardening the other side of the stock hole/'fork' can't hurt anything. Just don't let the glue run all over the place and make a mess--it's easy to do on that wide flat surface. I always check for damage there, but I've seldom seen any large amount of it to that side of the stock. I think it's because there's usually a large tab or bracket on that side. On the screw head side, there's only the smaller surface area of a 5 mm washer, so it's easier for the washer to dig down into the wood.
You can simply try applying some glue to that area and see if it gets soaked-up, or you can do it like I have before: look for noticeably-deep, sunken square or rectangular-shaped impression on the wood where the tab/bracket contacts the wood. If you see damage, apply some glue. It only takes a few drops, but the improvement is pretty-amazing.
If a barrel-cocking air rifle you own has too-much damage at the inside of the forks, you'll know it based-on something else: the fork or forks will rub the stock when you try to cock the gun. That's a sure sign that you have stock damage opposite the screw head side, and you have to apply glue to keep it from getting even worse. And, not only do you have to apply the glue to the damaged area, but you have to sand the fork(s) so there's enough room for the breech block to clear the fork(s) again. Don't sand the area where the tabs support the stock in the 'open-fork' position, or you'll just re-create the problem all over again, with even less good wood to work-with the second time around.
HTH.
Ed... my HW77K (carbine) is an older one, like the one in this Beeman Precision Airgun Guide Edition 16 1990-91, and it's a .20 just like the one that Doc Beeman recommended in the guide.
I bought it used from an estate sale about 20 years ago, so the original owner more than likely may have drooled over the same page... it came with a nice Beeman aperture sight with a Merit Iris disc and trigger shoe... sadly, the original rear sight was not included, so who knows where that went, but I would have removed it for a scope anyways... I think he may have had it "super-tuned" by Beeman too, because it really does shoot nice, even after all these years... I've been playing with it recently !
And I added the M**1 brass screw cups !
I've been using, and recommending, a similar wood hardening for springers for a good decade at least, and I'd add a couple steps...
I'll use a dental pick to poke tiny holes in the screw pocket, to get more depth of that wood hardened with the cyanoacrylate.
I'll also do the receiver side, and on stubborn guns, dremel out a shallow pocket around the screw holes inside the stock, where the compression tube contacts, and bed the tube in epoxy putty at those points A single layer of electrical tape on either side of each set of holes will usually make sure these pads are the only contact to the compression tube. Wax the metal in the pad area well, to prevent a glued together gun.
A tiny thread doughnut of putty under your flat washers (in the screw pocket) at the last moment before snugging the screws will ensure those washers are perfectly supported.
Ed,
Such a good post for springer. "Make sure all your stock screws are tight" advice is rarely preceeded by your advice of hardening the wood under the screws and either adding a washer or screw cups.
Respectfully, the only thing I would advise is using VIBRATITE on the screws rather than loctite or its many knockoffs.
Ed,
Such a good post for springer. "Make sure all your stock screws are tight" advice is rarely preceeded by your advice of hardening the wood under the screws and either adding a washer or screw cups.
Respectfully, the only thing I would advise is using VIBRATITE on the screws rather than loctite or its many knockoffs.
Kevin, I don't know if you remember Brian Enoch but I think he was the one who told me his favorite threadlocker was vibra-tite. The main thing is to use something to hold those screws in place once you have them where you want them. I know I tried the vibra-tite then stopped using it for some reason. But I do remember that it wasn't because vibra-tite didn't hold. I remember that it held quite well.
Hello Ed,
I wouldn't worry about 'abbreviating a dissertation' and in fact I'm grateful to you for not doing so, on such an important subject. With your words there was nothing left to guess in my 'minds eye' (lots of empty space in there LOL).
I am wondering if one uses Loctite (or what have you), would the integrity of the Loctite be lost if the screws were turned after that" took set"?
Also, what are your feelings on having a springer stock glass beaded?
Thank you sir for all you do for us!
Bo
Hello Ed,
I wouldn't worry about 'abbreviating a dissertation'...
I am wondering if one uses Loctite (or what have you), would the integrity of the Loctite be lost if the screws were turned after that" took set"?
Also, what are your feelings on having a springer stock glass beaded?
Thank you sir for all you do for us!
Bo
The Lock-Tite will hold the screw at its new position, whether you adjust it after a day or after a year. Still, if you've moved the screw several times, and you don't feel any resistance the next time you move the screw, it couldn't hurt to remove it or them and add another drop on them before reinstalling them. That's right, you don't even have to remove the existing residue from the threads, and they'll still hold. But, if your OCD starts to beating up on you, you can clean the threads and start over from scratch if that feels better to you.
You're Welcome!
Ed
Hello Ed,
...Also, what are your feelings on having a springer stock glass beaded?
Thank you sir for all you do for us!
Bo
Hey Bo, I misunderstood the last question in your post, hence I failed to respond. But, after reading hkshooter's post just now, the light bulb went on. I.e, you were referring to 'glass bedding', not 'glass beading' ( I wondered why anyone would want to glass bead an air gun stock--lol).
When done right, glass bedding definitely provides a great means of assuring a good receiver-to-stock fit over their entire shared surface(s). But, I've only HAD to use it once or twice in a few extreme cases of a mismatch between the two parts. One of those situations was where I was installing a custom-made, 3rd party stock onto a receiver 'when the 2 parts had never seen each other before', and the other was after a broken stock repair whereby the shape of the inletting in the stock had significantly-changed from its factory fit.
As a general rule, like 98% of the time, I've found that the factory fit is good enough in Euro-made (and even most other-made) springer brands and models to where I didn't need to bed the stocks to get very-good accuracy.
I'd sum-up my experience with glass bedding this way: it's a lot of work and usually not necessary to obtain good accuracy, so I almost never bother to do it. But, if in doubt, or if all else fails once I've tried the 'regular method' of installing stock screws, glass bedding remains a useful-tool in my bag of tricks.
Footnote: I want to mention that I've been told by more than one person who knows the powder-burner world, that in certain corners--like long-range hunting and target competitions--glass bedding is considered a must-do, not just an option, if you hope to humanely-take-down/seriously-compete and win. Putting it another way, I think bedding is considered the ultimate method of insuring the fit of a receiver inside a stock, for the maximum possible accuracy, where every single micro-MOA counts. But, you probably don't have to go that far to get good good accuracy out of the typical, well-made air rifle in most-typical shooting situations.
And, you're welcome!
Nice post Ed. We often work on getting the internals tight and linear, but the externals can be just as important, to the point where poor fitting stock or loose screws can offset some of the tuning improvements. It all has to work together. My HW77K is already tuned and pretty accurate, but even a small gain can be worthwhile so I'll look into doing this treatment.
Nice post Ed. We often work on getting the internals tight and linear, but the externals can be just as important, to the point where poor fitting stock or loose screws can offset some of the tuning improvements. It all has to work together. My HW77K is already tuned and pretty accurate, but even a small gain can be worthwhile so I'll look into doing this treatment.
Thank you. Your point is well-taken, pretty-much what I was trying to say, but with different words. However, I thought of emphasizing this next point before, and I think I better do it now.
Please don't let me throw a monkey-wrench into your system by introducing a new wrinkle that may be unnecessary, or worse. I'm talking about the old saying, "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
If your accuracy is pretty-good as is, you may want to save my recommendations for the next time you have occasion to take your rifle apart, or for the next rifle that gets added to your collection.
That said, if you do it right, it shouldn't hurt anything to follow the procedures I described. I just hate to think of how you may be 'cussing me out' and thus be causing my ears to burn when you put your HW77K back together and the accuracy actually gets worse---lol.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to tell you when I say that. Thanks.
Hey Bo, I misunderstood the last question in your post, hence I failed to respond. But, after reading hkshooter's post just now, the light bulb went on. I.e, you were referring to 'glass bedding', not 'glass beading' ( I wondered why anyone would want to glass bead an air gun stock--lol).
Ed,
my bad...yes, I meant to say glass bedding. "Beading" could mean hanging shiny Mardi Gras beads from the stock, perhaps to dazzle the squirrels into coming closer for a shorter range shot. Now you know why I don't write articles for Popular Science! LOL
Good to know that the factory Euro rifles would rarely need glass bedding for any accuracy improvement. Doesn't sound likely necessary for other maker's guns either. I've had several and never really gave it a thought until recently. Your original post makes the best sense, and quite frankly, a relief compared to bedding. Sorry for the confusion.
Bo
Hey Bo, I misunderstood the last question in your post, hence I failed to respond. But, after reading hkshooter's post just now, the light bulb went on. I.e, you were referring to 'glass bedding', not 'glass beading' ( I wondered why anyone would want to glass bead an air gun stock--lol).
Ed,
my bad...yes, I meant to say glass bedding. "Beading" could mean hanging shiny Mardi Gras beads from the stock, perhaps to dazzle the squirrels into coming closer for a shorter range shot. Now you know why I don't write articles for Popular Science! LOL
Good to know that the factory Euro rifles would rarely need glass bedding for any accuracy improvement. Doesn't sound likely necessary for other maker's guns either. I've had several and never really gave it a thought until recently. Your original post makes the best sense, and quite frankly, a relief compared to bedding. Sorry for the confusion.
Bo
Your reply about using glass beads to entrance or Mesmerize squirrels is humorous, but I was thinking of a process that actually does exist, and that has some possible applications in the world of air guns.
If you do a search on bead blasting, you'll find that it's a process whereby rusty metal can be bombarded by a stream of glass beads to remove the rust. It can also be used on a soft metal like aluminum, to give it some texture. It's been mentioned before on the forum, or at least on the old forum. And, that's what I thought you might be referring to when it came to glass beading. I thought, "Hey that would mess up the finish on a nice stock". Hence, I didn't understand why anyone would want to do it. So the process isn't so mythical after all--lol. (But, please DO let me know how it works-out with the squirrel thing :).
That process using glass beads would be in contrast to shot-peening, another actual process, whereby small balls of metal shot like BB's or ball bearings are used to bombard harder steel materials to eliminate any tiny flaws in the steel and thus make it less susceptible to breakage and also to give a slight textured appearance to that steel. You'll find that process has also been mentioned on the forum here, in regard to treating helical coil mainsprings like the ones that are commonly-used in springer-type air guns to diminish the tendency for spring breakage. You can search this forum, or do a wider search using the words shot-peen or shot-peening and you should find some information about it.
As stated, I'm with you. I'm glad we don't have to glass bed all of our air guns in the stocks. It's too much work and time that could be spent doing more enjoyable things.
Ed, what a great post! Most educational and insightful, thank you for taking the time to post it.
I would add two tiny details:
1. Be sure the surfaces of the wood inletting which touch the action are smooth. Mass-produced stocks will often have spots of raised grain, varnish runs, or other imperfections that can act as a fulcrum for the action to move about. Even just a few quick swipes of fine sandpaper or a 3M pad can make a big difference.
2. I like to add a very small dab of dry lube (lithium grease works fine) between the screw head and the washer or cup beneath. This acts as a bond-breaker to help keep the screw from being moved, and gives you a better touch when tightening the screw. I.e., what you “feel” is more of the tension on the threads, and less of the friction under the head.
Ed, what a great post! Most educational and insightful, thank you for taking the time to post it.
I would add two tiny details:
1. Be sure the surfaces of the wood inletting which touch the action are smooth. Mass-produced stocks will often have spots of raised grain, varnish runs, or other imperfections that can act as a fulcrum for the action to move about. Even just a few quick swipes of fine sandpaper or a 3M pad can make a big difference.
2. I like to add a very small dab of dry lube (lithium grease works fine) between the screw head and the washer or cup beneath. This acts as a bond-breaker to help keep the screw from being moved, and gives you a better touch when tightening the screw. I.e., what you “feel” is more of the tension on the threads, and less of the friction under the head.
Thanks Mike. And, for the extra tips, too, especially since dry lithium lube seldom gets mentioned.
I've got two "springers" (Beeman RX and an HW90) and had one, a Benjamin trail NP, that I tired of tightening stock screws on.
I drilled and tapped the mounts to 1/4x20 and made steel "cups" and use a Wheeler FAT to torque.
they hold OK but I do check and re-torque, if needed, regularly.
Ed,
So the 5mm washers that you mentioned in your original post, do they go in the screw hole while glue is wet? Or do they go between the inside of the stock and the action of the springer or just go as a normal washer would between hole and screw? Sorry if your answer is obvious but just wanted to make sure.
Josh,
Totally-understandable question.
The washers are inserted as a normal stock washer would, in-between the hole and the head of the screw, not on the inside of the action.
That glue is probably going to dry in less than 30 seconds. You'd be hard pressed to put the washers in-place before the glue dries, and that's not required anyway.
The glue is there to harden the wood fibers and thus provide a hard, durable surface for the washers to rest against, not to hold the washers in any way.
Great writeup! I had to do this on my HW90 but didn't do the loctite steps yet. What would be nice is a way to bed the receiver like you'd do a centerfire rifle to really lock things down and minimize the "wiggle room". I have not read a post on that anywhere, maybe not worth the trouble.
I'm glad you enjoyed the post. Assuming you meant mine!
At first when I read your comment, and read the model HW90, a laminated stock immediately came to mind. Those aren't quite as subject to the problem, because of the glue that's used to hold the layers together. But, of course, The HW90 isn't the model that has the laminated stock, if I remember correctly. It's 'plain old' regular wood. I seem to remember it was the Beeman RX2, and maybe some late model RX1's, that had the laminated stock.
I refer to it as an HW90, but it's actually a Beeman RX-1 with the soft beech stock. The RX-2 is indeed laminated. These guns are a tuner's and tinkerer's dream BUT ya gotta spring for a pump and pressure gauge otherwise you never know for sure if it's set up correctly. But until I learned this screw tightening trick you described in great detail, all the fiddling in the world could never get it to shoot to its potential. I thank you sir !
I'm guessing that it's 25% urethane. MSDS is vague, mostly solvent.
Super glue would be stronger... you know what? I never considered thin-ability of superglue.
Gonna look that up.
If you really want something to soak in, run a gouge round the inside of the hole first. Sanding will clog the end grain, maybe it'd blow out with air.
Edit, oh, it's a sticky! Golly, wish I'd said something smarter...
You can heat the superglue bottle, or buy thinner (3 viscosities available) superglue.
Mixing solvents into superglue will probably reduce it's strength, though perhaps not enough to matter in this application.
The general answer is "No, don't thin superglue."
As a new springer owner (2 weeks TX200) I found your post to be very interesting as several of your points had already crossed my mind.
1st I wondered about torque values. I've always thought a company who didn't provide torque values for the assemble/reassembly of it's products was lacking in the engineering department?
2nd Was bedding the stock. I prefer using Devcon rather than fiberglass YMMV. The goal is the same with either. and both will definitely lock it in place.
3rd Regarding thread sealants. "In the old days" it was not uncommon to set scope screws with clear nail polish. I thought that seeking the opinion of one's respective other that with the "advances" in acrylic nails and so on there may be other products outside the box that might bear consideration? I'm glad to learn about Vibratite as well.
4th Since we're talking about stocks, I was pleased and a little surprised how nicely figured the walnut on my stock is. It is a little light in color IMHO and I wondered if anyone had any advice to offer for a finish change. I'm sure it will change naturally as it ages, but I'm interested in the best options available if I choose to accelerate the change?
FWIW I'm enjoying the springer experience. I started out in my airgun career with a Benjamin pump pistol decades ago and after an accident a few years ago I purchased a CZ S200 to allow myself some trigger time. I also purchased a Benjamin Tempest in the '80's when I enjoyed pistol competitions in Wyoming. The tempest had the same weight, similar grip shape, and an adjustable trigger that allowed me to practice in the basement during those long and often subzero Wyoming winters.
Thanks for the interesting post.
You bring up an excellent point.
I've been asked about torque settings for stock screws a lot of times over the years. I've never given any. There's a good reason for that.
Steel, other metal, and even some plastics can often have such numbers assigned. But, in this case, we're usually talking about a material with one of the largest variables that exists: wood.
Not only do types of wood vary as to hardness (I.e. beech, walnut, maple, etc), but 2 different specimens of the same type of wood can be drastically different from one another. And, while I described hardening the wood with Superglue, the hardness of the end result will also vary.
Still, you want the screws correctly tightened. So, if not a torque wrench, which tool(s) do you use to set the screws? Two of the most important tools in your toolbox--the feel of the screwdriver in your hand, and experience.
As you tighten the screws, and in this case I'm mostly talking about the front 2 screws more than the others, you'll reach a point where you can feel the wood start to 'yield' under the torque of the screwdriver or allen wrench you're using. That's a good place to stop.
Why?:
You've ceased successfully tightening the screws, and have started to compress (or, crush!) the wood under the head of the screw and/or flat washer. While a very slight yield is ok, more than that is counterproductive, or even destructive.
Any stock screws located on the bottom of the stock, like those at the trigger guard, usually won't compress the wood much, if at all. You probably won't have the problem I just described with those. That's because they're pressing against the edge or end of the wood grain.
OTOH, the screws on the side of the stock are pressing against the side of the grain of the wood. That's not nearly as hard as the edge or the end of it.
Crushing the wood: I've seen instances where the side screws have been tightened so much, the wood underneath them was compressed--crushed to be too thin for proper strength. Fortunately, in the ones I had here, I was always able to rebuild the wood with epoxy, then re-drill the hole.
Had the wood been any thinner, I probably would have had to drill larger holes all the way through the sides of the stock, and glue-in new hardwood dowels. Then the dowels would have needed drilled to accept the screws. Of course, the finish would have needed repaired. It can be done. But, ugh!
To sum up, IME, think in terms of what feels right, in place of using a torque wrench.
HTH.
Ed,
I followed your procedure to the letter for 2 HW50's & a 57. Replaced all star washers with flats. This is the glue that I snagged off Amazon:
Has consistency of almost water like and soaked into the wood easily, quickly followed with Q-tip to prevent any unseen build up. The tiny tips that came with this glue made applying very easy. Did have one streak that made it to the finish but as per your post, the 0000 steel wool made it disappear. Of course I was watching for that and got to it quickly. I did the exterior trigger guard area as well.
Tried the Vibratite but the Permatex blue Locktite seems to have better "hold" characteristics.
Then you did a pretty good bit of work. I hope it helped.
This a great thread and very educational for me. I ordered myself a bottle of thin super glue from amazon immediately after reading it. I have a brand spanking new HW50S that'll benefit from me having a better grasp of what a wood stock springer needs.
I'd still like to replace the slotted screws with hex/Allen screws. I'm a bit ham-handed with a straight bit screwdriver in the best of circumstances (and I do have a good selection of hollow ground screwdriver bits, so it's not the tool). I much prefer hex or torx, and I have a much better feel with T-handle drivers. So if there's a sticky topic or thread I can be pointed to, I'll head there.
Finally, thoughts about using Brownell's steel bedding to create a threaded pillar bed in the stock wood for the higher torque screws? I might not have said that right (and nothing I hope I ever need think about with the new Weihrauch!), but when the screw/bolt hole's been hogged out or damaged or the grain's not ideal for holding anything other than a low stress/low torque screw. I've done this on firearms as part of bedding actions on one-piece stocks as well as the single forearm screw on break-open single shot's. I was surprised not to have seen it mentioned by other posters in this thread given the overall level of expertise in this forum.
Thanks. Scott
@wsjones
As to bedding, I've done some. I've installed a few pillars. The overall theory is sound, of course. I find the extra work to be cumbersome if it's not absolutely necessary. I usually shoot first to see what kind of accuracy I'm getting. If it ain't broke, I don't try fix it.
You mentioned grain. It sounds like some of what you're describing is a screw threaded into a wooden stock, to securely hold the action.
Most of the high stress air gun applications I deal with are steel screws installed through the wood, into machine threaded metal parts--not wood So, I don't see it much. A few guns have a wood screw holding a piece of trim, like the rear trigger guard screw on an older RWS 34, 36, etc. The front screw still installs into threaded metal, with machine threads.
I am prone to replace wood screws with sheet metal screws, even for wood applications. They're harder, and less likely to strip at the head. But, even some of the screws for wood trim are often supplied with hardened screws
If it was my one and only prize target rifle, and I thought there was room for more accuracy, I'd consider it then.
Torx wrenches are great for many uses. Some of them aren't about screws that were made to accept one. A screw that's normally driven by an Allen wrench, and on the brink of stripping, will often yield to a good-fitting Torx headed driver. Sometimes I do it that way from the start, when head stripping isn't an issue.
A lesson learned there for me is not to do it unless I'm sure of the fit. A poorly fitted Torx driver can tear up an Allen socket even faster than an Allen wrench.
I also discovered that all Torx tips and drivers aren't created equal. For occasional use, maybe ok. But, I went through more than one driver before I switched to those with T2 steel parts. I think that the cost difference is well worth it.
I use this one simple trick to avoid stripped Allen head fasteners. Hardware companies hate it! 🤣
Take your buggered up Allen key to the bench grinder, grind off the ugly. Viola! Good as new!
Especially powerful if combined with the taper present in Torx bits (and a whammer) when a s-l-i-g-h-t-l-y larger bite is needed.
Meanwhile in the Land of Chinesium... https://www.reddit.com/r/Chinesium/new/ 😘
The advent of cordless hex-drive impact drivers has made clear the disparity in tip qualities. Milwaukee Fuel for the breakage 😯 my goodness.
The 'Makita Gold' are the best tips I've found, period. Normally I would 🙄 at endorsing a specific model/brand. 1000% endorsement here.
3 year review, for gunsmithing. Hard enough to pound into stripped heads. Haven't twisted one. Haven't rounded one off.
I've snapped one tiny T# fighting problem screws, par for the course. I usually replace those fasteners, with a more favorable head config.
They truly shine in the case of wallowed out #2 Phillips, or off-angle engagement. Stuff that'd turn a generic tip ugly in a single use.
In the case of one special #2 fastener, I tapped a block and re-formed the head with hammers and a file. Excellent, compared to nothing 😬
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Makita-Impact-Gold-Drive-Bit-Set-40-Piece-B-65383/305513416
I'm a bit ham-handed
One of my pet peeves is tool marks on... anything. Slip-joint pliers are the work of the Devil, you'll never convince me otherwise.
When attempting to preserve the finish or patina on fasteners, a bit of brown paper will both increase grip, guard the fastener, and sometimes (dependent on the method of curing your hams underwent) prevent gouging the surrounding material. FWIW, paper is not all the same. Waxed is worst, craft paper/packing paper/brown paper is best. Thicker is better, within reason. Synthetic cloth is no good, cotton is OK. Look for a square weave and high density, with a sock being worst, and an old sheet being very good. Cleaning patches?
You can give it a light tap to really tighten things up. Use a new bit of paper each time, since tapping and torque cause the paper to flow.
This works less-well with a slotted screwdriver, but if you're very mindful of your sacrificial paper, it does help. You can also ever-so-slightly round the ends of the flat screwdriver (counterclockwise corners) then use paper laid over cloth. If you reverse this, cloth over paper, the corners will slide right through. Paper-over-cloth prevents this. I try VERY hard not to bugger fasteners OR the holes around them, but in the case of impact tools (hand impact screwdriver) the slotted screws can be a real PITA.
Ed thanks for a great write up - great insight.
Folks - Please use a properly fitting Screwdriver. How often do we see a scarred bolt face or screw face?
And if the screwdriver doesn't fit well, it'll slip out & scar the surrounding materials, be they wood or metal. Screwdrivers are relatively inexpensive - please "splurge" & buy one that fits the application.
Thanks again!
Ed thanks for a great write up - great insight.
Folks - Please use a properly fitting Screwdriver. How often do we see a scarred bolt face or screw face?
And if the screwdriver doesn't fit well, it'll slip out & scar the surrounding materials, be they wood or metal. Screwdrivers are relatively inexpensive - please "splurge" & buy one that fits the application.
Thanks again!
I have a set of Chapman hollow ground gunsmithing screwdriver bits:
https://chapmanmfg.com/products/8900-standard-set-12-slotted-bits?variant=906785635
@ekmeister I hadn't heard of hardening the wood before, but it sounds like a good idea. I'm going to try it.
