I am a springer shooter, no doubt about it. I experimented w/PCP's, got a pump and a 4500psi tank, but a springer lover/fan nonetheless. Here is my quandary. I shoot hunter class in field target events in the States. So therefore I use a small bucket/seat and shooting sticks. My go to sweetheart is my AA Prosport. I also have a RWS 54 in 22cal.
Lately, while we were stuck at home during our quarantine I have been trying to shoot in Field Target positions. Basically I have been trying to mimic Hector Medina's avatar. Shooting a springer off my knee and I am having the hardest time keeping still as to using shooting sticks. To me, IMO, sticks are easier but if you look at the score boards in a lot of FT events, a lot of piston shooters in the FT class still have better scores when just using their bodies instead of piston shooters in Hunter class.
I can honestly say that I am an above average piston shooter and I produce good results when using my sticks. But I have been trying, trying and trying to mimic Hector's position in his avatar and for the life of me, I cannot obtain the results as I do w/sticks. I put a thick knee pad on which brings my rifle up to height but I feel like I am always going to fall over. If I try to muscle it, well you know the answer to that. Pulse rate increase which then in turns moves you which moves the rifle. I then try to lean over to obtain my cheek weld and that puts slight pressure on my diaphragm and well you know how that goes.
I want to give up but I am not a quitter so for the guys who shoot FT any pointers/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
cross posted
Dondiva for the last two years I have been shooting in Hunter class and feel most comfortable in that class off the bucket and sticks. The reason I have been contemplating feel Target war of the American version of field Target positions and what not is because you can use a higher magnification scope which there for AIDS you in better range-finding plus I like to be universal or should I say I want to be universal. Thanks for your reply though brother it's much appreciated. and if there's any mistakes in this writing is because I'm using Google speech to text.
When I first started shooting field target decades ago (before there was a hunter class) I also tried "pretzel sittin'" and had the same issues you're having with "sittin' on a bum bag". Being a bit discouraged I asked one of the top scoring "pretzel sittin' shooters" at the DIFTA FT club how long it took him to get steady on the "bum bag". His reply set me back a bit when he said "it took me TWO YEARS of regular practice to GET COMFORTABLE with a sittin' position".
LOL, that told me all I needed to know because there was no way I was going to spend that much effort TRYIN' to get comfortable with a shootin' position that would never be used when hunting squirrels in the West Virginia woods! My solution was to only shoot "standing class" and TRY to get a double digit score (LOL, more than 9 hits out of 72 shots), at least the standing position was good practice for stalking squirrels in the woods. when starting shooting "standing class" I was terrible but did become mediocre after a while. LOL, in 2002 I even took first place in the standing class at the Shenandoah Valley Championships (club no longer exists)...........
Not long after the Dominion Air Gun Club started offering the hunter class which I embraced since sitting on a bucket restin' the gun on cross sticks could be taken directly to the 'squirrel woods" for late season squirrel sniping when the trees were bare and stalking was difficult.
I do have to say that I haven't shot the "standing class" since the first hunter class match and now my "standing accuracy" is worse than it was when starting to shoot "from the hind legs"!
Anywhoo.....as far as shootin' pretzel style is concerned I'm guessing that getting proficient is only a matter of dedicated practice.
I too shot in the springer class for about 25 years and was unable to master off the knee shooting. As you experienced, all I could reliably do is fall over my back. It might depend on body type and individual flexibility. For me, it was much easier to shoot over my arm which wore a pad at the elbow joint that matched one on my knee. By varying thickness, it was possible to establish a comfortable shooting position. The biggest challenge with non-pcp rifles is losing and having to reacquire the exact same position several times on each lane - while the clock is running.
Might want to give it a try. Most competitors will be happy to coach you. If you are not shooting WFT, jackets and harnesses may be allowed and could help to steady things.
Josh I feel your pain. I’m part of a small club where everyone shoots WFTF or open while I’m content to sit on my bucket in HC. Experienced WFTF shooters do make it look easy but I’ve noticed that they all (for the most part) have 2 things in common: fitness and flexibility. If you’re not very comfortable sitting in the pretzel wearing a leather coat in July maybe WFTF isn’t in the cards. “A man has to know his limitations” Harry Callahan 1973.
@donc Nice thing about a harness, you can add lifting points , just in case.
JW, I just got done using my ol' lady's exercising rubber bands which I kinda used like a harness and it helped greatly. Without it I tend to almost just roll over, lol. I do like the feeling of the laying it over the arm type position. that felt comfortable and did it without the rubber bands
Uglyjohn, i am in pretty good shape cardio wise but putting that springer on top of my knee is very awkward. I tried over the arm thing and its now bad. I also tried the "dead man" position i think its called and thats very weird feeling. I also believe that I need higher mounts even though I already have high bkl double strap 2-piece mounts. Tonight i'm going to try a thicker knee pad or put more pyramyd air foam pads atop of the knee pad
You need to get both feet flat on the ground. It might help if you at some pictures of different people shooting WFTF and open. Not everyone shoots the same. There are some REALLY good shooters in WFTF and open that are a bit on the large size so l don't body size has a bearing on ability. Body size and fitness may have a bearing on style. JMHO, Don
Hey Josh, I know what you are going through. I cannot sit with my legs splayed apart like that, so I don't do that.
I use a harness and bum bag. I cross my legs. this allows my midsection some place to settle which relieves pressure on my diaphram.
I also have a TX200 and a (CCA) Diana 54 (Miss Diana) both in .177 and I shoot them pretty well, but have been experimenting with various positions and variations of positions until I found something that works for me. The cross legged position does that, although I try to keep my knees up and pulled together with the harness.
Also, look at repositioning the rifle to allow your head to stay straighter. Easier to breathe that way, as well. Drop the butt pad, raise the cheek piece, add a hamster, again, experiment. There is no one hard and fast position that must be maintained.
If I lost some weight, I could probably get into a semblance of that position, but would have to stop eating for quite a while to accomplish that. that ain't gonna happen, so I use the harness and cross my legs. Don't be afraid to experiment a bit to find what works best for you.
HTH,
Mark
Again thanks to EVERYONE who took their time, offered their advice and posted great feedback. but i have another question.
Can I raise the height of my knee pad with anything? Can it be whatever height or is there a limit? Lastly I believe that I have found a position that I am comfortable in and for can be in it for three hours minus 5min breaks every 30min. I put 3 PA black plastic things that they ship the tins in. I put them underneath the Husky knee pad on my left knee. Its weird but feels good and what i'm talking about is laying my right leg on the ground stretched out. I didn't know if thats allowed or not. Also no matter what, it seems that the springer has to be placed near or right on by the trigger guard. Good for repeatability but what if your springer doesn't like to be held/placed there? Are you SOL?
cross posted
Josh, your biggest help will be to go to the AAFTA website, read and understand the rules for whatever class you wish to shoot.
It is the best resource that all of us use to answer our own questions. Hunter piston is different from Open Piston is different from WFTF piston.
Your best ally is to read the rules and adapt your position and equipment based on that. Not trying to be a smartass, but the rules are in print for your use.
Once you understand the rules, check out pictures in the various match reports to see how individuals position themselves to accomodate those rules.
If there are still questions, we are still here to help.
HTH
Mark
Again thanks to EVERYONE who took their time, offered their advice and posted great feedback. but i have another question.
Can I raise the height of my knee pad with anything? Can it be whatever height or is there a limit? Lastly I believe that I have found a position that I am comfortable in and for can be in it for three hours minus 5min breaks every 30min. I put 3 PA black plastic things that they ship the tins in. I put them underneath the Husky knee pad on my left knee. Its weird but feels good and what i'm talking about is laying my right leg on the ground stretched out. I didn't know if thats allowed or not. Also no matter what, it seems that the springer has to be placed near or right on by the trigger guard. Good for repeatability but what if your springer doesn't like to be held/placed there? Are you SOL?
cross posted
Josh
Richard Bassett shoots with his right leg outstretched, no problems with the rules there.
If you see other pictures of my position, the gun is not resting DIRECTLY on my knee. I used an industrial floorer's kneepad; one model or another for a number of years.
For the past three years I have been using a "hamster" made by Pete Brooks, and that has a "cushion" that I built into the riser. So I do not need to wear anything. This is due to WFTF MARSHALLING, not the rules, but the interpretation of the rules. It is so spotty and inconsistent, that what is legal one year in Lithuania becomes illegal next year in Wales, so to preclude any problem I abide by the rules as stringently as I can.
Here are a few more "up to date" photos:
Hope these help!
HM
While the shown positions above can work well on flat ground ..... When your targets are UP or DOWN angles of various amounts you need to have options or just set up differently to deal with it.
A somewhat leaned back sitting position works well on a down slope shot allowing one to straighten up. Shoot an up slope shot and you will fall over.
Ideally the more you can try and keep you head above your crotch having you somewhat distributing your weight over BOTH butt cheeks the more stable you will feel with sight picture being less wobbly.
modest to extreme FORWARD scope mounting helps eliminate the outboard lean when on the ground / bag. In this position SHORTER the scopes eye relief the better.
JMO .. nuttin more.
Scott S
They greatly do. I just don't know how you can lean back so far and be comfortable. It's like you're three quarters up in a sit up position and staying there.
That's the advantage of the 54, Josh.
The rifle is a STRUCTURAL part of the building.
It acts like a tension element and links my forward knee to my torso via the forward hand.
No "artillery hold" here.
😉
HM
While the shown positions above can work well on flat ground ..... When your targets are UP or DOWN angles of various amounts you need to have options or just set up differently to deal with it.
A somewhat leaned back sitting position works well on a down slope shot allowing one to straighten up. Shoot an up slope shot and you will fall over.
Ideally the more you can try and keep you head above your crotch having you somewhat distributing your weight over BOTH butt cheeks the more stable you will feel with sight picture being less wobbly.
modest to extreme FORWARD scope mounting helps eliminate the outboard lean when on the ground / bag. In this position SHORTER the scopes eye relief the better.
JMO .. nuttin more.
Scott S
Just stay fit. 😉
HM
Yes, the rifle ties together my position. It is, therefore, a "firm" hold on the forward hand. The trigger hand ONLY has force between the ball at the base of the thumb, and the index finger, everything else is relaxed.
BTW, I have tuned a Walther LGV to shoot well also in this position/hold, LOL!
Perhaps I will write an entry about the tune as it is VERY different from anything I have done before, and it is an experiment to lead into the best tune possible for the FWB Sport (My wife's, LOL!)
Boots are Duluth Trading. Were on sale before last winter. Dunno if they are available still.
Yes they are good boots, LOL!
😉
HM
Yes, Josh, that is unavoidable for all of us, unless you are Dracula. ;-P
Even using a harness I can see my pulse. I do have a strong pulse, result of growing up at 9,000 FASL. 🙂
There are shooters that like to "time" their release to the pulse, but I have never been able to do it, I prefer to simply "let my finger do the thinking". When I want to do the thinking/squeezing, shot goes to where it shouldn't, LOL!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Lately, while we were stuck at home during our quarantine I have been trying to shoot in Field Target positions. Basically I have been trying to mimic Hector Medina's avatar.
There is no such thing as a standard sitting FT position. If you go to the pics of World shooters you'll see what I mean.
You have to find what works for you. The main positions are developed shooting off the arm(crossed arms), shooting off the knee (rifle posted directly on the knee), and the Indian position( crossed legs with rifle resting on the legs & Bicep)
There are variations of the three main positions. I'd recommend trying different variations to get control of what is driving your pulse effect. Once you know that you can refine your seated position.
Knobs
I struggled with that for several years. When I got started in Field Target there wad only OPEN division and I had to use those Man Bra straps to shoot in the seated position. Ironically, i didnt realize how "not flexible" I was until rehabbing a bulging disc injury. Took about three years of Physical Therapy and Chiropractic care but after all that PT stretching and mild core training I can actually shoot in that FT position fairly well with an ergonomically correct rifle and scope.