Hey, I wonder if anybody has any performance information on H&N's Flying Ashtray, the Crow Magnum. ?
I'm interested in the following (on the .22 variety):
▪Maximum muzzle velocity at which you still get good accuracy/precision (plz, define, 1" at 10y, or 30y)
▪Ballistic coefficient (at what velocities?)
▪Expansion of the hollow point in either flesh or ballistic gel (10%) (at what impact velocity?)
Thanks!
Matthias
Decades ago I read a thread on the "old yeller forum" where it was stated that a .20 cal Crow magnum at 14fpe me would double the "killzone size" vs a .177 cal dome so I tested out the CMs with my .20 R9 stiffly tuned to shoot 'em at 775fps (roughly 17fpe) and actually hunted squirrels with them for a whole week when living in West Virginia.
First thing I noticed was that the .20 CM wasn't very accurate and past 25 yards they "went their own way", plus the pellet didn't "double the killzone size" vs the .177 CPL I used with my .177 R9. This was proven during the week of squirrel hunting where my hit to retrieve ratio was a piddly 50% vs the 95% normal "hit to retrieve ratio" of the plain CPL dome.
I did however find that when the .20 CM DID hit the vitals it was "pure poison", however the lack of accuracy made that possibility rather unlikely past 25 yards. Here are a couple pics of a nicely mushroomed .20 CP that was removed from the hapless squirrel............
Anywhoo....never again used the .20 CM pellet after that week of testing.
1. few rifles actually shot them well. Were some, but usually we’d look for something that shot them well enough to use. That didn’t happen as often as we liked, but it can happen.
2. The BC is way low….almost like shooting WC’s. That doesn’t have to be a bad thing in some situations.
3. Expansion is directly tied to impact velocity (which is true for any HP). Because of #2 above, that might be sooner rather than later, but at least they punched a WC type hole.
Had them...they sat in the “orphan” or “2nd rate” pellet section of the locker. Would take them out and give them a try oin any new rifle that came my way.
Sooner or later (in this case, later), found a rifle would that did “USEFUL” with them. Enough accuracy, enough velocity at impact to expand them. WHY that rifle did better with the “orphans” I cannot say, but once I found one that would…..I shot them up.
(this happens to be in .25….and I got lucky with the Crow Mags with this rifle)
My experience with the .22 Crow Magnums was similar. Insufficient accuracy from something like 6 different barrels past 20 yards or so which rendered them useless to me. They look mean so that was a disappointment.
The closest thing to them I’ve found that will hit the target are the Spanish-made Daisy hollow points. A couple of groups at 30 yards:
I never had any luck with CM's in any caliber or gun. I do remember them being marketed heavily by doc Beeman in .25 for the Kodiak and Crow Magnum rifles back in the day. Those tins are still sitting on the shelf.
The hollowpoint to purchase nowadays is the Hades. I've shot them lights out in a few Daystate Air Rangers. Very impressive.
I heard the JSB trashcan, the ultra shock, is pretty good too. However, I've never shot them.
Hello I have used them in 177 in the following guns FWB700(factory specs), CZ200 (750 fps),and FWB300s (factory specs) all with poor results at 20 yds 5 rd groups averaged between 3/4 and an inch. I switched to RWS super Hpoint and groups shrunk to 1/4 to 1/2 inch. In 22 cal I have also had good experience with RWS super Hpoint in the following guns Prod (factory specs), RWS 52, Airforce Talon ss. Right now I am using JSB hades exclusively in all my 22 cal guns RTI priest 1/4-1/2 LCS19 1/2- 3/4 AirArms 510 1/2 talon ss 3/4-1 inch (heavy trigger) all groups for the Hades are at 45 yds just my experience hope this helps Eric
Interesting experiences. I'm sorry to hear so many not getting good precision with this pellet.
I haven't been able to test it for precision in my guns — I did a few expansion test of half a dozen HP pellets, though, with the Crow Magnum included. I should be doing a write-up....
? Jason, interesting you mention the Daisy Hollow Point (yes, Spanish made, pic above). It seems to be softer lead (for better HP expansion) than the H&N pellet.
And it is significantly lighter, 15.40gr vs. 18.21gr.
Now the Daisy HP managed to loose weight over the Crow Mg, and still successfully retain its un-aerodynamical shape: Therefore, the BC is probably in the same weed-overgrown ballpark... — with the Daisy HP I'd estimate 0.018, and the Crow Mg a tad higher at say 0.021 (since it's got more weight; H&N publishes 0.022).
? Running the numbers for my 26FPE .22cal Skyhawk I have our chick Daisy beating the socks of the Crows (well, their feathers at least). I explain:
If I wanted to get an impact velocity of at least 750fpsto ensure HP expansion, the Crows only fly 11 yards far before slowing to that velocity (ooops). The Daisies go for twice that far — 21y! ?
If my terminal ballistic tests eventually confirmed that a 700fps impact velocity still makes these two HP expand significantly — well, then the Crows can reach out to 24y, and the Daisies out to 31y, still a significant difference.
? Anybody has a tip as to who has the Daisy HP's in stock at less the extortionist ebay-reseller prices?
Matthias, your BC estimate of 0.018 for the Daisy HPs is good. I had gotten 0.017 using the delta V method at 30 yards.
Regarding the velocity necessary to get them to open up, this example I shared a while back was with a terminal velocity of only about 650fps (800fps muzzle velocity at 30 yards). It was recovered from a gray squirrel and represents an expansion of 26%.
