Gold plated HW77 re...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Gold plated HW77 renew plating question?


DonC
 DonC
(@donc)
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 209
Topic starter  

Years ago I mistakenly use Flitz Polish on the gold plating. It removed 40%. Now, I want to have it renewed with new plating.

Can you recommend someone I can send the action to for this???

Thanks so much,

DonC


Quote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1261
 

Ouch.

 

Watching, I'd like to send my Gillette gold toggle off to refinishing also. The prices have gone nuts since I looked last, might be time to go back to a fatboy, take the profits. Think I paid $10? $20? Meh... been using it 15 years. I'd totally take $700, or $1300 if I can find an empty box LOL

Edit, to add a link I found for a 24K gold plating service, while searching toggle prices. I'm guessing the plating community is fairly small, and it never hurts to ask.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/BackRoadsGold?ref=l2-about-shopname


ReplyQuote
Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 326
 
Posted by: @donc

Years ago I mistakenly use Flitz Polish on the gold plating. It removed 40%. Now, I want to have it renewed with new plating.

Can you recommend someone I can send the action to for this???

Thanks so much,

DonC

Remove the rest and have a great trigger. 


ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 529
 

Are you referring to one of 3 ever made?...gulp 😶 

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/weihrauch-the-golden-gun-one-of-only-3-presented-to-director/Air-Guns/1269034

1269034   photo 3 1592558816 img
1269034   photo 2 1592558816 img
1269034   photo 1 1592558816 img

bf1956 thanked
ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1261
 
Posted by: @straitflite

Are you referring to one of 3 ever made?...gulp 😶 

Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

Ouch.

Wow, that was an understatement, by a mile. I thought the toggle prices were stupid... only 3... DonC, Sonnysan, who else has one?

I wonder what the actual gold weight is on something like that? But, the real question, is there one in .20? 🤣 🤣 🤣 


ReplyQuote
KWK
 KWK
(@kwk)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 273
 

Gold plating doesn't hold up anyway. Don't fret over it. If you handled it and shot it it would tarnish anyway. And still need redone. That's probably why you felt the need to polish it. That kind of stuff is for presentation. Not for use. 

About as useful as a gold plated shovel with a silk rope handle.


ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 529
 

Look into cerakoting. It holds up on AR15’s AK’s etc etc. Probably look better than the brand new OEM finish. Pretty tough stuff.

Just a thought.


ReplyQuote
DonC
 DonC
(@donc)
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 209
Topic starter  

@straitflite 

My rifle is not from this lot of 3. It doesn't say Hill Cartrige. Mine is Tyrolean stock beech. Serial number 1181899.

I bought it in mid 90's from Nick Huff owner of airgun shop in Michigan called The Tarpaper Shack.


ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 529
 

@donc 

Gotcha.

According to the Weihrauch database mfg approx 1989 with 25mm comp tube as I'm sure you already knew. I can't find anything on the gold plating from the current bluebook or the catalogs. The catalog's say nothing of the tyrolean option that I can find but Beeman of course did offer stock options in their pricing lists, I'm sure because the bluebook says to add 25% above condition value for the tyro. I've never even seen a picture of one with that stock.

Sounds like a very interesting piece and maybe a one-off?


ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1261
 
Posted by: @straitflite

Look into cerakoting.

Cerakote is the best way to spend $200, turning a $500 gun, into a $300 gun.

Ok ok, it's not so bad for re-finishes, but I wouldn't buy NEW Cerakote, it's just lazy manufacturing, wears like shit.

One bad experience? No. All bad experiences. Over park'd steel, 8 months in my pocket, the flag on my LCP slide is pink, baby blue, or gone.

Chips like a sumbitch on aluminum. Nice for the battlefield pickup look, but it has none of the grace of worn bluing, can't boil it, ect.

Basically, it's the trend away from conversion coatings, and towards DTM epoxy, run amok.

https://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/365/248c17d0-34bb-0132-4087-0ebc4eccb42f.gif?w=320

Posted by: @kwk

If you handled it and shot it it would tarnish anyway.

The fact that OP attempted to polish it supports the above statement, but I'm left a little confused.

Pure gold does not tarnish, and the pictures posted by Straitflite appear to have that 24K hue.

Were there examples with a lesser grade of plating?

This illuminated a hole in my knowledge, I do not know if it's possible to plate gold alloy (I'd have suspected segregation in the bath)

Hmm... off to the source...

 

Coming back to Straitflite's gold trigger, this plating kit source specifically states that it can't do aluminum. Retarded prices, not endorsing.

https://www.goldplating.com/collections/jewelry-plating-kits

And, they absolutely have 14K, 18K, plating solutions. Wonder how THAT works? https://www.goldplating.com/collections/bath-gold

 


ReplyQuote
KWK
 KWK
(@kwk)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 273
 
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr
Posted by: @kwk

If you handled it and shot it it would tarnish anyway.

The fact that OP attempted to polish it supports the above statement, but I'm left a little confused.

Pure gold does not tarnish, and the pictures posted by Straitflite appear to have that 24K hue.

 

 

Gold doesn't tarnish but plating allows molecules of the base metal to contaminate the gold layer. Plating will tarnish


ReplyQuote
straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 529
 
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

Cerakote is the best way to spend $200, turning a $500 gun, into a $300 gun.

With that statement my P1 should be near worthless. Cerakote cost for gun, scope, mounts, scope stop, all pin ends etc was around $250. Could have saved that and got 2 real Beeman's from walmart...I'm a dumbass.

Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

One bad experience? No. All bad experiences.

Do tell...

Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

Chips like a sumbitch on aluminum.

I missed 'slid' more than once with steel punes punching extremely tight P1 pins upon reassembly and my heart skipped several beats. Not a single scratch on its aluminum alloy frame so that statement is wrong. But then I do not have a PHD in metallurgy.

Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

can't boil it, ect.

Run out of rations on the battlefield?

Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

Basically, it's the trend away from conversion coatings, and towards DTM epoxy, run amok

I did not know that.

18 p1

The only original finish on this one is the scope's glass and ugly blue ring not blending well in the scheme.

@donc

Don, I don't have any sledgehammer wit/knowledge with multiple embedded meanings to cause confusion & twitching, I can only say time will tell and so far this one refuses to show any marking or wearing of any kind. I have visited enough gun shops and talked to MANY people who are aware of this guys work and all feedback was total gleaming with positive words. Too many people have had work done by him in far reaches of the region and not ONE bad word of the results from firearm shooters...not one. Bragging was the norm. He is usually backed up mostly with government contracts and Sig Sauer amongst others such as Colt. He stopped taking new work because the backlog got crazy, unless you were already a customer that had previous work done. May have changed by now...dunno. I do know that if anyone is considering cerakote (tm), look for a "licensed" dealer. Your HW77 sounds (to me) like it would be worth consideration? If you sell it to me, I'd do it in a heartbeat and it would be no safe queen. I'm certainly no expert but it wouldn't hurt to research it. Like anything on the web as in real life, mitigating circumstances will yield yays and nays if you look for either long enough I suppose. Pride of ownership should prevail regardless of which direction you choose. I'd love to have it!

Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

Pure gold does not tarnish, and the pictures posted by Straitflite appear to have that 24K hue.

That R7 Rekord was not cerakote, I have no idea what crap that was.

https://tomscustomguns.com/

 


ReplyQuote
Derrick
(@derrick)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 35
 

How about gold titanium nitride?  I don't think you could wear it off by handling it.  Lot of tool makers use it.  


ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1261
 

Oh boy.. I knew I should have put a big disclaimer on that... fine fine... I'll upload some pics... do a sciency writeup.

Posted by: @straitflite 
But then I do not have a PHD in metallurgy.

Don't be too hard on yourself, I didn't finish highschool, because reasons.

Posted by: @straitflite
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

Cerakote is the best way to spend $200, turning a $500 gun, into a $300 gun.

With that statement my P1 should be near worthless.

The value of the P1 is not derived from market wankateering or the schmoo you've schmeared it in, but from it's reputation, the reputation of Weirauch, popularity of the 1911, and from your own personal attachment.

I also stated, I thought clearly, that cerakote was OK for re-finishes. Cover every square inch of a pig with lipstick, I'd still eat the bacon. 🤣 

Regarding your slip of the punch... firstly, your punch faces should wear a mirror finish, it'll save 75% of the potential marks. Secondly, you were applying compressive force, at 90 degrees to the surface. The sorts of chips I'm referring to are generated by shear forces.

Posted by: @kwk

Gold doesn't tarnish but plating allows molecules of the base metal to contaminate the gold layer. Plating will tarnish

This makes perfect sense. (slaps himself in the forehead) Thanks!

Posted by: @derrick

How about gold titanium nitride?  I don't think you could wear it off by handling it.  Lot of tool makers use it.  

This is an excellent suggestion, and IIRC, TiN is a vapor deposition, so the item size will be less of a hangup than gold plate (bath)

Ti is self-passivating, so the level of oxidization should be very stable over time. To my eyes, the slightly orange-e-ness of TiN is closer to 24K than legit 14K alloy.


ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1261
 

So... long boring post that has nothing to do with gold... here goes!

In the beginning, there was ore. Extracting and refining metal ore in to pure metals, and the development of alloys, is IMHO, mankind's greatest engineering success. Bar none, metals are THE dominant technology driving civilization. (not gold, that's a sickness)

I can't remember a time when I wasn't trying to work metal. Wood, I do not like to work with at all. Gimme the shiny slivers, please.

 

The problem arises when pure metals are exposed to time, ions, atmosphere, and oxygen.

Ponder this. Silicon is a metal, sand is (nominally, generally, for the purpose of this discussion) silicon dioxide. Is the silicon in the sand reactive? Not really, because any reaction which might take place upon exposure to atmosphere, already has. The entire beach is oxidized metal.

Next, we'll move to iron, FE. Is the iron reactive? We all know, iron FE forms red rust which is a progressive cancer, red oxide Fe2O3.

How about, if SOMETHING had already been done to the surface, to reduce the reactive nature of the iron? "Passivation" EVEN MORE BETTER, we could use a metal with self passivating behavior, such as stainless, aluminum, or titanium, or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar_of_Delhi#Scientific_analysis

With a little extra energy and some chems, we can convert iron directly to a black rust called magnetite, Fe3O4, colloquially know as "bluing" or "black oxide." There is another process "rust blue" for converting iron which entails intentionally rusting the iron with acids, then boiling or steaming, which again produces magnetite. 

Someone might ask "How does 300 degree lye/sodium nitrate, and rust/boil end up with the same result?" 

I don't know. Look it up, let me know. Seriously.

Posted by: @straitflite
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

can't boil it, ect.

Run out of rations on the battlefield?

Again, we can boil EXISTING red rust, and convert SOME of it, to black. A blued gun which has been rusted, can be partially restored, and the rust stopped, by boiling. Here are some AK receivers I boiled for around 10 mins, and completely stopped the red rust.

  

Last year I purchased a few guns to practice caustic hot bluing, late 60s to early 70s, sidearms for an unknown overseas police dept.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

All of these contained large amounts of OILED RUST. ALL that orange-ish on the outside is RUST. NOT PATINA!!! (you shut your mouth 🤣 )

[img] [/img]

Here was a pitted example, no hope of a good refinish, so I opted to rust blue with nitric acid, and FL humidity.

Rust bluing is SLOW, and absolutely does not belong in modern manufacturing.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Jeez John, you ruin't it!

Here is the FIRST THING I EVER HOT BLUED. There was a LOT of light pitting, so I tried glass beading it.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Here is the SECOND thing I ever hot blued. WOW, the color is SO much better! :Steep learning curve has entered the chat...

[img] [/img]

Here is one which was ONLY boiled/carded, happens to be 1968 production. Came out very nice.

[img] [/img]

So, in the half-century contest of hot blue vs paint... can you SEE all the dents in those guns? They were used as hammers, one had the trigger guard closed up from being used as a whip, and another did a running faceplant on the concrete. There is no paint which could possibly hold up this well. It WOULD look like 50 years of unwashed PEELING ass, full stop.

I'm gonna start a 2nd post, on phosphating and anodizing, before I lose all this while editing...


ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1261
 

moved down so the post is fresher and I don't get locked out of editing, can't delete, for whatever reason


ReplyQuote
KWK
 KWK
(@kwk)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 273
 

🤔 But wait, he wants it gold, John.

Couldn't you just melt down about a pound of gold and dunk it in there? 🤓

Or would that make the gun too heavy?


ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1261
 
Posted by: @kwk

🤔 But wait, he wants it gold, John.

If you don't know where you are, and you don't know where you 've come from, then you can't know where you are going. This is commonly known as being lost. I'll get round to cerakote shortly.

 

 

Caustic hot blue is (depending on your tolerance for risk) not a very nice process. You're dealing with a literal vat of boiling lye, around 300 degrees, spitting and sputtering the whole time. There is a smell, and SUBSTANTIAL thermal input required to heat the entire bath.

Add to that, it's far from the be-all end-all of passivation, and does rust. Hot blue does not work on stainless, and severely damages aluminum.

A very desirable quality of bluing, it's non-dimensional. This allows tight tolerances, and a coating which does not cause binding.

 

 

Since we're still on iron... enter manganese phosphate, aka Park, parkerization,  phosphating, aka Mn3(PO4)

Park is done at 195-ish degrees, we can see already that less thermal input is required. It's thicker than blue, holds oil, and makes an EXCELLENT substrate for paint. You know phosphated steel finish, as the official finish of drywall screws.

 

Damn... I've gotta do some work... maybe I'll have some 3am freetime to work on this post...


ReplyQuote
Razor
(@razor)
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 65
 

Try this option for plating small parts. I used to use this method when I did allot of firearm restorations. Perfect for triggers, extractors, hammers etc... It works. It's affordable and the results are quite good when the surfaces have been prepped properly. I would NOT recommend this for doing entire guns. It's a thin plate which doesn't wear too well on large items that see allot of handling. Might be good for touching up the worn areas of your rifle. 

https://www.bevfitchett.us/home-gunsmithing/this-relatively-inexpensive-kit-can-create-a-gold-or-silver-finish-on-your-favorite-firearm.html


ReplyQuote