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FWB 124 barrel latching repair

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(@sd5782)
Ohio
Joined: 7 years ago
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Are there qualified smiths out there who can take out the barrel latching detention ball on a vintage FWB 124 and put in a new latching spring and re-stake the ball?

I do nearly all of my own work, but this is beyond what I wish to attempt. I keep this one tuned to perhaps 10fpe because of the weak latching which can cause lots of frustration. 


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
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I've been tuning springers for more than 20 years, and I've worked on a lot of the 124's, so I speak from experience.

I've improved the lock-up on a bunch of them, and not once did I have to do anything to the ball and the spring that pushes against it. Instead, the problem was always associated with the cone-shaped piece that the ball latches against. When I was done, the feel of the lock-up went from a weak 'rollover' to a nice reassuring snap.

Edit: After reading a few of the posts below. I can see that I should clarify my comments. When I wrote that 'nothing' had to do with the lock-up ball and spring parts, or needed done to their operation, I meant nothing in the way of their disassembly or spring replacement. Adding a few drops of oil to those parts, then working the parts free by opening and closing the barrel several times, is just good, common sense in the way of mechanics of any description. Yes, do it.

You still won't get as firm a 'snap' when you close the barrel as you will if you also adjust the fit of the cone detent in the end of the receiver. (End of edit).

I've been asked to post how to do it, and I've declined to do so. One false slip and you've ruined the part. Last I checked, they're not that easy to find, either.

Summary: The barrel lock-up on the the FWB 124 can be noticeably improved. Unless you have a problem I've yet to see, don't waste your time trying to fix It by doing anything to the ball and spring mechanism inside the breech block of the barrel. (Edit: With the exception of lubricating them, and making sure they're operating freely by opening and closing the barrel several times. That's my standard operating procedure for any barrel-cocking gun I work on, no matter the make or model).

I'm not saying that the situation you mentioned is impossible--of course it's possible. I'm just saying that based on what I've seen, it's highly unlikely.

BTW, the problem is so prevalent that I just assume it needs addressed, and I take care of it on every 124 I tune, at no extra cost.

Oops, I almost forgot:.Once modified as I described, a lot of them I worked on did a smooth 12 FPE or so, with no accuracy problems associated with a weak barrel lock-up. It just wasn't an issue. 

Good springer shooting technique? Yes, by all means, still required!


   
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(@airguntunes)
New Hampshire
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Put a few drops of Triflow oil around the ball. The spring and internal channel get sticky and dried out with the factory grease over the years. Then use a block of wood and push the ball in and out several times to work the oil inside.That's the first thing I do on the FWB 124's and 127's when I tune them, in fact I do that on all break barrel springers wether ball, or wedge indent lock-up

You'll likely see an immediate improvement.

Good luck,

Scott


   
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marflow
(@marflow)
Washington
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should i assume you take out part 121221 and shim it out to put more pressure on the ball and spring 


   
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(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
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@scottblair

Yes, that's the same thing that I do.


   
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(@airguntunes)
New Hampshire
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Posted by: @marflow

should i assume you take out part 121221 and shim it out to put more pressure on the ball and spring 

I don't remove the plunger, I simply lubricate it with a deep penetrating oil.

I'm sure I've done over 50 of these classic rifles over the decades, and have never had to remove the plunger. Even with a couple where the plunger was pretty sticky.

Ymmv

Scott

 

 


   
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(@sd5782)
Ohio
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Other projects so I am slow to respond, but thanks for responses. Yes, as Ed said it is a week rollover type of lockup. With gun uncocked give barrel a slight tap to unlatch. Takes very little pressure to lock and unlock at this position compared to my HWs and Dianas. Anything nearing 11-12 fpe would give breech seal leaking and vertical stringing no matter the fit of the seal. It took me awhile to figure this out, but at a nice shooting 10 fpe all was well, but it did irritate me.

I will try to work some oil into the ball detent to eliminate that variable first, but I am interested in that mention of part 121221. I will look into this, but schematics point to this being a non moving part. Is it just a tap in fit? Ed, is this something you address if one sends a barreled action for just that repair? I’m sure you would be reluctant to give out trade secrets.

I’ve actually just learned to live with this for some years but thought I would put it out there. This gun was a nearly new 1980ish gun that also had barrel droop issues. I had to bend the barrel as it wouldn’t even shoot point of aim with the stock barrel sights. It is VERY accurate however, and everyone needs a 124. 

 


   
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(@sd5782)
Ohio
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Upon further observations, the weak rollover feel with gun uncocked is the ball at final lockup camming over the receiver shelf at final lock position. I did work some “break free” lube into the ball detent and it seemed to make a more positive latching feel with overall lockup. I need to get some tri flow as I also hear that mentioned for my vintage bicycle hobby too. 

I do like the power level and feel of my lower power tune, so I will leave it there, especially in light of this weak area. Interestingly my Dianas with this setup are rock solid. The camming angles and such are probably what comes into play here.


   
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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
California
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FWIW ... as a tuner myself and having serviced dozens of 124's  What also needs to be paid attention too, is .... using the correct breech seal o-ring and NOT having it sitting too proud / tall within its groove.  Even a slight sanding on one side to thin can help. ( Fitted to groove side )  Action closed over a Strip of wax paper that you pull out can greatly help in feeling how tight the o-ring is getting squeezed.

These rifles lock up upon a Shelf against Shelf mechanical stop. Once mechanically bound up on said shelf edges the breech gap that o-ring breech seal must seal, is a FIXED DIMENSION.

If o-ring / breech seal is too thick unable to be compressed enough to allow the mechanical stop to solidly bottom out, you have a wiggly barrel and one that will far easier move and sometime snap barrel open and also subject to change POI being how hard you slap close the action.  To thin or worn in this breech o-ring / seal and you just get a leak.

While i have played with minor profile changes on the lock side of ramp ( & it does work ) Found it not necessary with correct breech seal fitment.

 

Just some more freebee how-too for you self tuners

 

 

Scott S


   
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(@ekmeister)
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@sd5782

Yes, I can take care of it if all I get is the action. I can't really test accuracy and overall operation like that, of course. The fit of the stock is very important for that. But, if someone isn' t worried about my looking at that, it's OK by me.

If you read my post about hardening the holes at the forend of the stock, that procedure is extremely important on the 124. They are notorious for having the forks pull together, and rub against the breech block, when you tighten the 2 screws on the front. Then, you have to sand-relieve the inside of the forks, and re-stain and top coat the wood there, to keep the forks from binding the breech block when you close the barrel.

Of course, I'm talking about the OEM beech stock. If you buy a walnut or maple stock, the wood should be a good deal harder.

The information that's been posted about not having an over-sized breech seal O-ring is good stuff. It's just that there's a little more margin for error if you get a very-firm lock-up because the steel parts are doing their job.

FWIW, not posting idetailed how-to instructions is not just a matter of it being a trade secret, although I do want to address that subject.

It took me a lot of hours, ruining a hard-to-find part, and locating and buying a replacement overseas to take care of it to learn how to do the job right. So, I would like to recover a little bit of my R+D cost.

However...

What I briefly mentioned above, in a previous post, is 100% true.

When it comes to that modification, the margin between success and total failure is very small. If I post the procedure, and things go bad, I won't have done either one of us any favors. The person who did it will have a ruined part to deal with, like I did. And, I'll probably get blamed for the failure by at least some people. That's a lose-lose situation.

Along those same lines, I've been asked why I don't write a complete, comprehensive tuning manual. Let me give you the 30 second answer.

If I did do all that work, I know what would happen, because I've seen it in action, up close. (Re: Someone I met at my place of employment, decades ago, and one of the CAD programs out there).

One or two people would buy it, they'd copy it, then send it to all their friends. I will have invested all that effort, only to lose a bunch of potential tuning work, AND not get any book sales revenue, either.

But, what about copyrights? That's usually a dead end. Lawyers cost a lot of money, and the chances of my winning a lawsuit and collecting damages would be small. 

Before you think I'm greedy, my word not yours, do a search here, and on the old forum, and see what I've posted over the years. It's already enough to fill a small book.

I'll tell the rest of it.

I've had more than one tuning customer get multiple air guns tuned. One of them was pretty handy at doing mechanical work. There came a point in time where I talked him through doing a couple of his own tunes, over the phone. He shared info with me about other things, so I never felt slighted in the least.


   
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(@sd5782)
Ohio
Joined: 7 years ago
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Topic starter  

@motorhead

Oh yes on that o ring seal. Actually, that is where the weak lockup became apparent. Much, much time and experimenting to get just the right fit on this one. It became apparent that this was a weakness on mine at least.


   
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Limbshaker
(@limbshaker)
Alabama
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If you really want to improve the lockup on the FWB124, dicking around the detent is the band-aid. They will still suffer from POI shift issues due to the spongy breech shim arrangement. Counterboring the breech for fitted bronze bearings allows for a lower barrel tension. And this in turn lets the ball bearing make a sturdier lockup by taking advantage of all the tension it can offer. Early models didn't even have a wear washer opposite the spring washer and the breech block just rubbed on the forks. And consequently the breech wasn't centered in the forks.  

Another thing, sometimes the ball can protrude varying amounts from gun to gun. The "peen" is what determines how far the ball pokes out of the breech. And this can vary the tension it's able to apply for the lockup. If yours never feels "crisp" you may benefit from filing the base of the breech block where it contacts the detent lug. Or, it may need shimmed depending on what it needs.  

I've also had two so far that the detent lug had basically fallen out of the receiver. Once this thing gets loose, it will never shoot right till its fixed. Best way I have found is to TIG weld it in place. It's unbelievable what a cheesy setup FWB used on this part considering how important it is.

Finally, if you are trying to tinker with breech lockup, do it with the breech seal out to make sure it's not interfering.

 

  

 


   
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Limbshaker
(@limbshaker)
Alabama
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I'd like to add that the idea for the breech inserts came from Paul Watts, which he provided for all to see. Although he was using the technique on a different model. He is the best in the business, if you are looking to have it fixed the best it can be. He doesn't need to keep many "trade secrets" or type a paragraph to quantify the quality of his work either. 

Something to consider. 


   
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(@sd5782)
Ohio
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Yes, the whole lockup on that gun isn’t great. Diana uses a ball lock up with no problems. I believe it is a matter of geometry on those guns. Despite what people say, the fwb trigger leaves a lot to be desired too. All that being said, the barrels are fantastic.


   
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(@hkshooter)
Indiana
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I've wanted a 124D since 1983 when I first saw it. But I have to say, with all these problems and potential problems I don't believe I'd buy one. Especially for the premium they seem to bring. I appreciate all the additional info that I've never heard before. 


   
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(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
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@sd5782

 

I've only worked on a couple, and was not impressed one bit with them.

I cannot believe the prices they bring now days!


   
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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
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Have too laugh a bit on some of the responses  reading as if all that has been written about these rifles over the years was some sort of smoke screen to hide some unspoken truths on how there made and how well they work.

 

IF .. one has an issue with a FWB 124/127 it is more times than not RELATED to these rifles being operated by the HAM FIST types who violently OVER COCK the action, SLAM /SLAP close the action, seldom if ever lubricated the Yoke pivot and simply just shot them over & over & over gain ..... DAMN these rifles for many are 40 +/- YEARS OLD !!!

 

There a mechanical devise and wear out like any thing else that has moving parts. Much as we would like to think they should or will .... they won't last forever if being used / shot regularly.

 

just keeping it real ...

Scott S

 

 


   
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(@airguntunes)
New Hampshire
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Well said Motorhead.

I own both the 124 & 127, and have resealed well over 50 during the past 25 years or so.

They are wonderful rifles, with very accurate barrels. still highly sought after.

They would be one of the last to go from my collection.


   
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Limbshaker
(@limbshaker)
Alabama
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The breech shim arrangement is janky. The barrel latch detent is weak and janky. The trigger is crude, although crisp. The safety mechanism is janky, although resettable, when it works. They don't make great power and are hold sensitive as hell when they do. And of their legendary build quality: the rear sights were plastic. As was the trigger for many years. 

They do handle very nicely, and have great barrels. Otherwise, they are a flimsy design all around. 

They look a lot nicer through the rose colored glasses from those caught up in the nostalgia of it. 

They are absolutely not worth what they are listed for these days. 

 


   
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(@jim_bentley)
Indiana
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@limbshaker

True.


   
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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
California
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No different than folks who collect or restore vintage cars or motorbikes.

By today standards in evolved mechanics or design, much of whats old are not what hyped to be or just POS !!  Yet due to nostalgia and folks still wanting them the market flourishes.

and NO they too are not worth what they sell for in the market place !! 


   
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(@hkshooter)
Indiana
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Posted by: @limbshaker

The breech shim arrangement is janky. The barrel latch detent is weak and janky. The trigger is crude, although crisp. The safety mechanism is janky, although resettable, when it works. They don't make great power and are hold sensitive as hell when they do. And of their legendary build quality: the rear sights were plastic. As was the trigger for many years. 

They do handle very nicely, and have great barrels. Otherwise, they are a flimsy design all around. 

They look a lot nicer through the rose colored glasses from those caught up in the nostalgia of it. 

They are absolutely not worth what they are listed for these days. 

 

Seem to be some wadded panties over this topic. Hmmm. 

The post I quoted above are about all of the complaints I've read about recently that I never knew were problems concerning the FWB 124/127. Note that to the best of my knowledge none of these issues have ever been mentioned concerning Weihrauch-Beeman built rifles, my only springers, even to this day. Note that the Weihrauch-Beeman rifles are just as old as the FWB rifles. 

Now maybe that's not an apples to apples comparison in some eyes. Ok. But the Weihrauch-Beeman rifles are just as old as the FWB rifles people are defending with the old age excuse. I had an R1 fail on me once. Accuracy went to hell, nothing I did found the problem, just refused to shoot. Scope went to Burris, rifle went to California. Scope came back perfect and refurbished, found nothing wrong but they cleaned it up, refilled the worn gold inlay stadia and nomenclature, and lubed up a stiff adjustable objective. 

Rifle was the problem. Nothing broke or came loose, trigger was perfect, screws were tight, nothing stripped, everything was rock solid. The only thing they did was replaced a completely destroyed mainspring along with a new piston seal. I had completely worn the thing out, thousands of shots, years of use took it's toll on that spring. A new one put it right back where is used to be and I was a happy camper. 

With all due respect, the "it's old" thing means squat in most cases. Properly engineered and built to start with, things will last generations and be passed down as an heirloom. Built janky and with more cost cutting measures doesn't translate to a long legged life of use or support being passed down to sons and grandsons.

 

 


   
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Prairie_Farmer
(@prairie_farmer)
Illinois
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Chase makes some good points above and he knows well, good reason why the HW break barrels are alive and well, and the FWB's have drifted into yesteryear.  The HW break barrels are workhorses.  Even the new 30mm FWB sport, attempt to listen to the customer, was a failed attempt.  Thoe the lock up issue was addressed, the powerplant is a mess.

Prairie Farmer


   
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(@tk171)
South Carolina
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Correct barrel tension and proper lubrication and proper breech seal fitment go a very long way with the FWB Sporter. As an owner of a few of the older Sporters, i have never experienced any issues with my guns as described above nor would i down grade their build quality. Great solid lightweight air rifles that still put out plenty of  power. The reason Feinwerkbau didnt use a wedge detent design is because it wasnt needed with this rifle. The only reason I replaced the plastic trigger on my 127 was because the macarri blades gave just a slightly better and more fine adjustability. Ok, that makes me a trigger snob. In all reality  for the average ag shooter, The plastic FWB trigger, just like the plastic trigger on my t05 diana 34 is pretty much a non issue. I own several HW made springers, a couple Dianas along with fwb’s and all are top notch guns fit and finish. My 2¢. 
PS: a new macarri pivot bolt assembly may be needed if the original bolt has work over the years due to lack of lubrication. Hth ?


   
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(@airguntunes)
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Posted by: @tk171

Correct barrel tension and proper lubrication and proper breech seal fitment go a very long way with the FWB Sporter. As an owner of a few of the older Sporters, i have never experienced any issues with my guns as described above nor would i down grade their build quality. Great solid lightweight air rifles that still put out plenty of  power. The reason Feinwerkbau didnt use a wedge detent design is because it wasnt needed with this rifle. The only reason I replaced the plastic trigger on my 127 was because the macarri blades gave just a slightly better and more fine adjustability. Ok, that makes me a trigger snob. In all reality  for the average ag shooter, The plastic FWB trigger, just like the plastic trigger on my t05 diana 34 is pretty much a non issue. I own several HW made springers, a couple Dianas along with fwb’s and all are top notch guns fit and finish. My 2¢. 
PS: a new macarri pivot bolt assembly may be needed if the original bolt has work over the years due to lack of lubrication. Hth ?

I agree completely with TK above.

My personal FWB 124 & 127 have zero problems with the lockup, and in all the ones I've resealed and tuned over the years, never seen an issue! Just need to keep the detent ball lubricated.

Scott


   
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