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FT accuracy

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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

I’m currently happy with my mid range accuracy. I’m about to push out to 50 yards with my 10FPE springer.  What kind of 50 yard accuracy should one expect out of a decent Springer FT gun?


   
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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
California
Member of Trade
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 389
 

Having witnessed a few times a Spring gun competitor hang with the PCP guys, tho not common ... doing so has you needing to be @ 2 moa accuracy or better which loosely translates to an inch at 50 yards.

 

Pending match shot you will generally see a 1 1/2" minimum to a full 2" at 50 and beyond.  Do your part in doping the wind and accurate as to range ... your in the game with the big boys.

 

 JMO

Scott S


   
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(@jfs)
Maryland
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 44
 

   My experience with quality springers since about 2002....  I am an average shooter.

I agree with MH... 2 MOA is very good average for a large group at 50 yards on your average day.   You can shoot MOA for a group or two at that range but don't be fooled by small sample sizes, they are not representative of overall capability.   I usually use 5 or more 5 shot groups and average them to get a better representation (arbitrary choice but statistically superior).   

 

50 yards:   Under the best possible circumstances I've seen just under 1.5 MOA average at 50 yards, could not... for sure do that every day by a long shot.  This is with typical FT type guns at 13 to 15 ft lbs in .177 caliber and is really about my best effort, not my average one!

40 yards:   I've seen  0.50" average or less at 40 yards which is I think, less than 1.2MOA under ideal conditions for 10 groups, but again... this was a good day with excellent or ideal conditions. 

35 yards:    I shot 11 groups (using 5 shot groups again) and averaged .384" for these groups, just over 1 MOA!   But this was under the best conditions and I could not do it over and over again (a good day).

 

Basically, given a perfect day and having my gun in great shape... with great ammo and perfect concentration... I could likely do something close to these numbers... maybe.  

 

Range matters and conditions.  50 yards is considerably more difficult than 35 for a springer.  Lower power may also make it tougher at longer ranges as well, but don't tell the Brits.   Springers can be a challenge! 

   As the range drops it gets easier to average MOA, to a point.   My guess is that somewhere around 25 yards, shooting a good springer on a perfect day with a good technique and excellent ammo... you might reliably get close to averaging 1 MOA groups with a reasonable sample size.   I should give this a go?!   

 

Just food for thought,

John


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

Thanks for the info. I now have something to aspire to. I’ve been on par with the groups to 35 so far. I’ve only been shooting 20-35 yards lately. 

Last time I shot this gun at 50 I got 2 1.5 inch groups. I only shot those 2 groups at that range. I know it’s shooting better now so I’m getting pretty curious about stretching it out. 


   
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(@jfs)
Maryland
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 44
 

50 is much more difficult, any wind will make it tricky and as the distance increases, a more perfect technique is required as well as excellent ammunition.  Very tough for me to get to 1.5 MOA with a large sample size using FT type guns at full power, but I'm sure others can do it more often.  Keep shooting and have fun.  

 

Regards,

John


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

Thanks again guys. I think I figured out my way forward based off of this information. I’ll set up for about 55 more pellets to test consistency at exactly 35 yards before moving to 50. Usually I can get 4 of 5 under .2 at that range with the 5th making it .25 roughly which always impresses me. Once I’m satisfied at that range and have more of a baseline then I’ll begin at exactly 50. I have ZERO wind reading experience so this will be quite a learning experience especially considering I’m only at 10FPE and only way to increase would be to increase transfer port size which I won’t do to this gun. If it continues to do well then I’ll start setting it up for FT and maybe get involved one day. I posted a video of my last outing on YouTube and a couple other forums so I guess I can link it here too. This was just a willy nilly day shooting criss cross from the back of my car lol. I’m pretty happy with how tame I’ve got the recoil now  


   
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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
California
Member of Trade
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 389
 

Based upon the ABOVE picture .... NOT shooting in form with perhaps a seat, sticks , bag, harness etc to what and how you will in competition .... miens little.

100% of all practice, learning how to shoot said gun accurately in what even class your going to shoot needs to be in practice / application to said class all the time !!!

If you shoot your gun outside of this it is for fun and education of HOW it shoots outside of what will be normal in competition.

 

Don't shoot the messenger ....

 

 


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

I do plan on buying a bucket and sticks.  Maybe a bum bag. I’ve shot with well enough with a bucket and sticks before but I NEED to practice and LEARN the FT shooting techniques. I’ve just never had a gun I thought would qualify let alone be accurate enough. 


   
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(@rich177)
Pennsylvania
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 175
 

Motorhead,

There are two schools of thought about practice.  I generally follow what you said.  If I am practicing for FT I shoot at field targets, if practicing for silhouette I shoot at silhouettes and for bullseye I shoot at paper targets.  I think that any shooting helps with shooting for any discipline to some extent.  The same goes for shooting different rifles.

Some disagree.

Rick


   
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(@donc)
Illinois
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 442
 

Why have you selected 10 ft/lb? WFTF is 12 ft/lb. I'll bet if you tuned to just under 12, you would still like the tameness of recoil. 11.9 ft/lbs tune would make you a little more competitive.


   
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gonzav
(@gonzav)
Connecticut
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 306
 

Purchase a field target with a 40mm (1.575”) kill zone - Gamo squirrel, Umarex Deer Target or Air Venturi Rat. Place it anywhere from 40 to 55 yards. Shoot at it using all of the equipment needed for your class. Try getting 10 knockdowns in a row. It is more than just about group size. It is also about shot placement especially in the wind.


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

I need to buy a field target for sure. I’m sadly aware that moving from shooting for precision groups to accurate shot placement will be hard for me. I hope to get a lot of practice in. I’m an airgunner by blood (obsessed since very young age) but never thought about a disciplined sport like FT before my recent entrance back into airguns  

The gun is at 10FPE for a couple reasons. I played with piston weight and preload a little before settling where it’s at now. It’s much easier to get small groups the way it is now. The most substantial reason why it’s not close to 12... I believe there is a transfer port restriction. I’ve put several springs in and preload and nothing makes it go too far above 11. Also not too many people own this gun and I suspect the ones that do are not the type to care to open it up and measure details such as the transfer port. I’d prefer not to enlarge the TP without first getting measurements from one that’s closer to 12FPE. Gamo for whatever reason made the CFR to shoot 150+ FPS slower then the ACCU and the CFX. After all of my experiments I’m certain it’s TP. 


   
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gonzav
(@gonzav)
Connecticut
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 306
 

There is nothing wrong shooting a springer at 10 FPE. If you get the best accuracy and consistency at that power level, keep it that way. John Farbrother, an English piston shooter won 2019 Pyramyd Air Cup at 10 FPE with his TX200. He also placed third at 2019 World Field Target Championship (piston class) in England. My LGU was shooting at 10.5 FPE when I went to England last year and placed 4th.


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

That is definitely inspirational information Gonzav, thanks. Thank you too Yo2 🙂  I have been worried about shooting at 50 while staying competitive. I started this project in hopes of building an FT worthy gun from a low cost/unconventional  perspective. So far I’m probably around 300 or a little more into it. After this learning experience then I’ll probably move up to something German.  

Ive been putting more emphasis on what the paper is telling me lately then trying to figure out my ballistics, which is opposite of how I thought initially when I wanted to move from 20ish yards out to 35ish. 


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

I was 270windude then out of the blue one day it changed to two70windude. I’m going to stop using that forum entirely.    If you start a post titled hw30 you’ll get 10,000 comments about nothing. Post something substantive and crickets....  here there seems to be a higher IQ level with shooting. 


   
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(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1298
 

I wrote this 7 years ago:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/its-all-about-accuracy  

And I still think it holds. If you go to the FT section you will see that the WFTF version of the game IDEALLY requires 1/3 mrad (about 1.03 MOA's ) and the AAFTA version IDEALLY requires 1/6 mrad (about 0.55 MOA's), this is taking into account all the OTHER variables.

Truth is that once you are out there in the open, the wind, light and geography play a much bigger role than you can imagine.

 

😉

 

 

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM


   
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(@hotair)
California
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 891
 

The more power the harder to shoot accurately. 10 foot pounds should be plenty enough for 55 yards IMO.


   
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Motorhead
(@motorhead)
California
Member of Trade
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 389
 
Posted by: @rich177

Motorhead,

There are two schools of thought about practice.  I generally follow what you said.  If I am practicing for FT I shoot at field targets, if practicing for silhouette I shoot at silhouettes and for bullseye I shoot at paper targets.  I think that any shooting helps with shooting for any discipline to some extent.  The same goes for shooting different rifles.

Some disagree.

Rick

It has nothing to do with what you shoot at ..... It is the way in WHICH YOU SHOOT, HOLD THE GUN & SIT that stays in sync with how you will shoot it once competing. 

 


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

I will for sure be practicing the right way once I establish my gun is ready. I should have been doing it all along to hone my skills but I’m still in the process of tinkering. Although I think I’m settled for now. I was going to do a glass bedding and I prepped the stock for it so it’s almost entirely floating right now and seems to be the best it’s been since I started. I’m also glad that the best pellets changed from deep yet consistent FTT to JSB exacts seated flush. 


   
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(@josh3rd)
Pennsylvania
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 278
 

I would like to add that although although we like to shoot in premier weather like no wind the temperature is just right the sun is not in your eyes and such. But when you go to a match you don't always get what you want regarding weather. I for one like to shoot in the wind, I like to shoot in the rain, I like to shoot when it's cold and I like to shoot when it's hot.

 

I am far from being the best piston shooter but I am okay and I believe that with the opinions and suggestions from experience shooters like gonzav, Motorhead, Hector Medina and such,  will offer their opinions and advice because it is what they have learned and what they have seen that's good for themselves. So you could probably take a little bit from everybody to build you a perfect base to start on but only you know I should say only you will know what works for you as I have been asking them their suggestions about just field Target positions.

NowI think I found mine so now I have to incorporate it into these different types of weather conditions and see if I can still hold true to what I do. Hope that helps.


   
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(@dogsbestfriend)
Georgia U.S.
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 16
 

 

C5E6FA15 3F93 4151 B8A5 4C1062C59995
878A1B70 32CB 48E9 8A85 AACEF7AD2476

I have some field targets and on occasion l will put out several lanes but one thing I enjoy is shooting at woody’s targets.It gives you something a little closer to field targets but much less hassle and it is something range able and with a bunch of stickers they can be used many times.


   
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nced
(@nced)
North Carolina
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 144
 
Posted by: @two70windude

I’m currently happy with my mid range accuracy. I’m about to push out to 50 yards with my 10FPE springer.  What kind of 50 yard accuracy should one expect out of a decent Springer FT gun?

I shoot hunter class with a .177 R9 or .177 HW95 and when sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks I'm satisfied with 1 1/4"ish 5 shot groups at 50 yards (my home shooting lane max distance is 53 yards). Here is a target I shot a few years ago at distances of 10 yards to 50 yards, 265 consecutive shots, simply to check my trajectory "real world" vs the ChairGun calculated trajectory ('puter calcs weren't accurate at all) aiming directly at the bulls............

I have shot a few "bucket and sticks dumb luck braggin' groups" but the above target is more representative of "normal for me"........

 

Even for the longer targets I find that the accuracy of my scope rangefinding and wind doping at a 16x scope setting to be a bigger hindrance than simply raw grouping ability! At my back yard shooting lane I can knock down my 50 yard target almost every time, however when I get to the FT lanes it's a completely different story!

Here is my simple practice lane target setup that I shoot at different distances from 10 yards to an occasional 53 yards..........

The target on the left has a full size 1 5/8" diameter killzone and is shot from 50 -53 yards.

The target in the middle has a home made 3/8" reducer and it's shot from 10 yards to 20 yards.

The target on the right has a home made 3/4" reducer and it's shot from 30 to 50 yards.

 

LOL....on one particular day when I was steady on the "bucket and sticks" I put 15 out of 20 CPLs through the 3/4" reducer at 50 yards and haven't been able to repeat it since........

 

 

 

 


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

Thanks to everyone for the replies thus far. I managed to try a LITTLE 50 yards shooting on my weekend (Tuesday and Wednesday). I was mostly shooting at 34 yards again (coincidence I wound up at 34 and not 35 and wasn’t going to move stuff around). I went back to 50 and was shooting in no particular form. I was squatted like they do in Afghanistan with both feet flat on the ground, I had my elbow supported with my knee. I thought I was doing great,2nd and third shot were very close to each other and the bulls eye.  THEN... my group opened up a very strange amount vertically. I remembered I had a bad velocity spread with this gun compared to my others. I passed it off due to the crappy breech design on the CFR compared to ACCU/CFX, and my poor replacement seals. Well I only shot 6 pellets through the chrony to realize I need to tighten the spread to hit at 50!!!  706, 697, 686, 699, 705, 701. 

While that spread can kick butt at sub 35 it really has an effect at 50. Looks like I’m back to tearing it down and probably order the correct seals this time if I can find them. 


   
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(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1298
 

Josh.- you are absolutely right!  😉

 

270WinDude.- While SOME uniformity of MV is necessary, it is not SUFFICIENT condition to ensure a precise and accurate system.

You also need to understand how "initial conditions" affect things, as well as how much OTHER things related to the MV change the POI.

For example: An 8.44 pellet at 800 fps, with a high MV of 806, a low of 786 (20 fps difference), the difference in POI from the highest MV to the lowest is barely 0.25"

If you plug into the same ballistic program YOUR numbers, at 706 and 686; SAME 20 fps difference between max and min, for the same pellets, the difference only grows to 3/8" at 50 yards.

What MAY be changing in those 20 fps is the MOMENT of exit of the pellet from the barrel and the actual, spatial, orientation of the barrel in relation to the scope's LOS.

If the "strange" amount you are referring to exceeds by much the 3/8" then you need to look elsewhere because NO AIRGUN is completely uniform in MV's. The BEST airguns I've seen, on average, can keep SD's of 2 to 4 fps., and that means an extreme spread between 6 and 12 fps.

The SD that corresponds, more or less closely when shooting 20 shot strings, usually goes proportionally to 1/3 of the ES.

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM


   
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(@_270windude)
Oregon
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 61
Topic starter  

Hector thank you so much for your time and guidance here. I hadn’t plugged the info into chairgun because I was too cocky thinking my theory was right, even though it wasn’t. 

I’m certainly glad to hear you mention velocity the way you did. I’ve seen many threads where people are blaming accuracy issues on fluctuations in velocity without mentioning the ancillaries like you have. My experience here is limited to one gun I had that had quite wild velocity spreads yet hit the target every time I pulled the trigger. I was doing a lot of 10 yard shooting back then and out to 20 max but that gun was, if not my most accurate, my second most accurate at 10 yards and definitely the most accurate at 20. 

Side note: I was debating on something that touches on your remarks about other variables that correlate to velocity. I removed the pointless (at least to me) baffles inside the “whisper” muzzle break and now have some room to experiment. I was debating on installing some sort of variable barrel contact device. Not sure it would have any effect but I thought it couldn’t hurt once I make the move from 35 to 45 or 50 as my standard set up and shoot distance. 


   
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(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1298
 

@two70windude Those are excellent ideas!

Depending on the SHAPE of the hollow you have, you might also want to experiment with the LOCATION of a weight.

Look into lamp parts and search for "socket/lamp threaded bushing" this is a tube that is threaded, the tube is about 0.40" cal, so the pellets can pass through it, and the thread is fairly standard, you can get all sorts of lamp parts threaded for that. Some hollow, some solid, lots of ready threaded material to start with.

Even with hand tools you will be able to create some interesting stuff.

Keep well, shoot straight, and keep us posted!

 

 

 

 

 

 

HM


   
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AirSmithCA
(@airsmithca)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 38
 

with my HW97, when I could practice a lot, 1/2" groups at 50yds were possible but not probable.

 

It takes a lot of practice with very high amount of attention to detail and consistency with your breathing, trigger pull, and shot follow through..


   
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