For the few who may know of me when competing in field target I participate in hunter class with shooting sticks. When I was at DCFS in southeast Pennsylvania I met some new friends, particularly a guy by the name JD from Tennessee. He and Brian Van Liew (again Brian some if I messed up your last name) suggested that I should shoot open class piston. Now from what I know, open class you cannot use shooting sticks but can use a harness and a rifle 20ft/lbs or less. I have been trying the field target sitting positions and am having THE hardest times keeping steady. I feel like I have a hard time breathing and controlling my breathing. I have been trying different hand and rifle placements like placing the rifle across my left arm and my left hand is grabbing my right forearm while sitting (hope that makes sense). Also I seen Leo Gonzalez, Mike Norris and Hector Medina sit on the ground placing their rifle on their knee pad.
Well my whole issue is aside from practicing what hold/position for a spring rifle is best? I have a prosport with no type of attachment or aftermarket parts on the stock. Any and all help is and will be greatly appreciated.
Cross posted
What class do you intend on shooting in?
If hunter again, does your rifle hold a tight group off of the sticks?
Sometimes the height of your seat can affect how steady you are.
But the one thing about springers is, once you find how the gun likes to be shot. You then have to more or less cater to the guns hold sensitivity.
Another issues is once you find the sweet spot for the hold on sticks or knee pad... You might not be accurate in your forced positions. The rifle might have a different poi.
That being said, a very well tuned gun can somewhat negate most of the issues.
This is why I shoot hunter piston with my HW97K. Tuned at 11.2 +/- ft lbs by a very reputable tuner.
Hi Josh,
I was at that match shooting hunter PCP.
I think you need a harness like JD and Brian have to stabilize you. Guys that shoot open love their harnesses ? They add a lot to stability. then knee pad with cushion, custom stock that fits you. And a lot of practice.
Jacob's suggestions about seat high is very good. Bucket is too high for me. I'd like to keep my seat on such level that both my feet are firmly flat on the ground and my elbows are into my knees and support rifle without any muscle tension.
If you are shooting spring gun and don't want to buy all that stuff needed for open, keep shooting hunter piston. If you are looking to spend money to improve your score, good pellets for practice is probably best bang for the dollar.
I've bough TX 200 from Mike Norris and been shooting it a little bit and it shoots different POI from sticks then sitting down. Standing shots go about 2 MOA higher.
Just set practice field target 50 yards away and try shooting it with different holds. If you can get 10 out of 10 hits, you are good and can move to kneeling and standing at closer range.
Happy shooting, Vasyl.
My bad brother if I didn't already say but I want to shoot or thinking about shooting in open piston. My rifle and I are pretty good off sticks and bucket (wawa milk crate) and it's 11.7ft/lb and tuned by nitrocrushr from the GTA. It has motorhead's delrin spring guides and top hat shooting AA 8.4 @ 785 and jsb 7.87 @ 823. And even though tuned when I shoot in forces positions like off hand my 10yd hold is 1/2 mil as to 10yd off sticks which is 3 1/2 mil. But earlier I tried the FT sitting with knees raised, rifle in crook of my left arm had me breathing like a fat man at a smorgasbord. And every breath showed up in my crosshairs
Vasyl,
Hey brother how you been? I remember that you let me shoot your TX at DCFS. I love the tx stock WAY better than my prosport. Just felt weird cocking it but like everything else you got to get use to it. I remember watching JD, Leo and Hector in their positions but it felt so weird and outta place. Well I'll text you so we don't clutter the board
Had the same issue when I sat on the ground cross legged. Found I was applying too much pressure in my grip and cheek rest. Pressing up to the gun and leaning in put extra pressure on my lungs. And made my breathing pattern heavy and uncontrollable.
To be honest I wish you would stay in the hunter division, or go wftf if you do switch.
Open piston has been slowly falling in numbers over the past years. Out of all but one match attended, I was the lone Hunter piston shooter this year. So I had to be consolidated with the other classes and try for over all high in piston instead lol. No complaints as it has brought my game up.
If you do switch classes I hope you figure out a good position.
Will consider it Jacob. Thanks brother
Josh,
Have you tried using a bum bag? It makes a difference when shooting from a sitting position. It makes it a lot easier and more comfortable. I personally do not rest the rifle on the crook of my forearm as some people showed you to do. You can also try (before you buy) a padded flat top knee pad as well.
You can still shoot hunter piston class. Vasyl's recommendations are a very good starting point. Try different height seats. I personally would use a bum bag with sticks in Hunter Class.
Shooting WFTF or Open sitting position is similar to doing sit ups.
Regards,
Leo
Bumbag? Dont have one but was thinking of just trying a 6 or 8 inch small step that kids use or a small lady around the kitchen. I have some knee pads but non flat top.
Vasyl does have some good points as well. Leo im pretty good all around in hunter class. I know where my rifle does best in the sticks and the height of the milk crate is bout perfect. But JD and Brian made me think that I would/could do better in open. Not much competition in open springer and I am a above average shot so as long as I keep practicing. But I got tonstart asking Mike if I can car pool with him or Tom from New Jersey
I am one of only 2 registered Open Piston for Nationals and only just the past 2 years been getting serious about FT. I shoot a TX with a custom stock similar to what customstocks.co.uk sells. I bought it from an long time shooter. My first expense would be a scope you do not mention what scope you have. I had a BSA Platinum but it cratored on me this summer. I ended up buying a Sightron, I also tried the Hawke but after shooting with the sightron would not go back to the Hawke. You really need the harness and Bum bag they make things MUCH easier. I have tried to shoot off my left arm as you mention but find it harder and harder to get there anymore. I have a Turkey hunting pad or a kneeling roll that I use on my knee to shoot off of. From my experience the scope is the biggest issue for success.
Mark
Mark I just got a air max 30 sf 4-16. I tried clicking with it and it takes 2-3 shots for it to go and stay where I clicked to. SMH. As for the knee pad, I think that's what I need. It would keep me from compressing my diaphragm probably. Is their a height restriction on that?
roger that firemarshal
For a knee riser I have been using a small kneeling roll. I had 2 other open shooters borrowing it from me during the ROT shoot because they were having trouble getting up to the elevated targets.
Great idea CM
Hey Josh,
I shoot open PCP and open Piston and prefer the piston gun......most of the time. I still like my PCP guns, but piston is more fun to shoot.....in my opinion.
As for positions, I tried a bunch, but always use a harness to support my lower back. I used to try to shoot with my legs spread apart, but that put too much pressure on my hips, so I am now shooting cross-legged and a I sit on a bum bag. I have also played with the harness to get as comfortable as possible.
I tried shooting across my left forearm with my left hand lightly gripping my right forearm, but like you, found it not steady enough. I use a Styrofoam block wrapped in duct tape. It is 2 inches thick, 4 inches wide, and 6 inches tall and rest it on my knee. I place the gun on top of it and now have 3 different height positions that I can use. I primarily use the 6" side because it allows me to sit up straighter and most importantly, to breathe easier. That alone will help steady your aim. I cut a piece of neoprene mouse pad to act a cushion between gun and "knee riser", and have it double face taped to the Styrofoam block.
I wouldn't mind shooting hunter piston, but these old eyes just don't work well at distance using a 16X scope. I use a 24X scope now but think I should go higher to distinguish distance better between 40 and 55 yards. 24X is OK most of the time, but some of those dark targets drive me nuts.
Hope this helps. Glad to hear that you are considering Open Piston. I wish others would, too.
Mark
That was some of the best ideas for getting the different heights. Thanks brother.
For the few who may know of me when competing in field target I participate in hunter class with shooting sticks. When I was at DCFS in southeast Pennsylvania I met some new friends, particularly a guy by the name JD from Tennessee. He and Brian Van Liew (again Brian some if I messed up your last name) suggested that I should shoot open class piston. Now from what I know, open class you cannot use shooting sticks but can use a harness and a rifle 20ft/lbs or less. I have been trying the field target sitting positions and am having THE hardest times keeping steady. I feel like I have a hard time breathing and controlling my breathing. I have been trying different hand and rifle placements like placing the rifle across my left arm and my left hand is grabbing my right forearm while sitting (hope that makes sense). Also I seen Leo Gonzalez, Mike Norris and Hector Medina sit on the ground placing their rifle on their knee pad.
Well my whole issue is aside from practicing what hold/position for a spring rifle is best? I have a prosport with no type of attachment or aftermarket parts on the stock. Any and all help is and will be greatly appreciated.
Cross posted
Josh;
It was great to see you at DCFS PA State Championships.
I THINK that Open Piston is the most challenging form of FT.
While you are allowed to use the full power (up to 20 ft-lbs), the truth is that performing the artillery hold while scrunched up "Pretzel style" is not easy at all.
There are so few Open Piston shooters that no MD would be too obnoxious with the rules, but if you read the rules closely, the Open Division rules for position ALLOWS all types of clothing, but no artificial support of the gun. Straps and harnesses are to support the BODY of the shooter, not the rifle.
Also, Open shooters are ALLOWED to use a seat of up to 6" max height, but nothing else.
SO, in a very strict application of the letter of the rules, if it is not part of your clothing, or a harness that can only touch your body, everything else is artificial support of the gun.
That is why some Open PCP shooters use extra thick kneepads and elbow pads in conjunction, to obtain the height needed for comfortable shooting.
All the advice above is good, I will touch on those points not mentioned by other shooters.
If you look closely at my "form" you will see that the rifle has an adjustable hamster that has a curved under surface that has been lined with medium hardness foam. I do NOT rest the gun on my knee directly. The foam is more forgiving. Also, the actual position of the hamster attachment to the gun does NOT change from free to forced positions and so POI does not change. The hamster position changes, but not the interfase with the gun.
I shoot using a more "Open" position because that is what I am used to in the field. Years of field work and shooting HP, and the recoil of the 7.62X51, taught me to be as low as possible, and as "open" as possible. It is a habit of mine, in no way it is the only way to shoot, as you have seen from one of our best FT shooters (Leo Gonzales and Mark Kauffman). At my age, habits are hard to break.
Because I use a D54, the artillery hold is performed by the stock, not by me. I can and SHOULD hold the stock fairly firmly, with no real stress in the trigger hand, but a firm grip on the forward hand and a firm cheekweld. So, the rifle is, FOR ME, part of a "structure" It is part of the stability equation.
To shoot your Pro-Sport, you really DO NEED a harness. If you do not want to buy one, just buy a back brace for weight lifting/furniture moving as sold in some pharmacies, and add nylon webbing straps to hold your knees in place attached to the wide part of the back brace.
IF you like that you can then buy the "Price" harness.
Remember that you need to get into the harness and ensure that you are in your natural shooting position (NSP). I ensure that with a white line in my bumbag that needs to aim at the targets, while my seating position is anchored by another line that needs to be aligned with my shoulders just before sitting. Getting this straight saves me precious time because when I get my gun up, it is usually aiming at the target. No need to search for it. If I cannot find the target immediately in the crosshairs, it means that I am seated in a faulty position, and it is better to correct that from the start, than fighting a non-natural shooting position.
Pratice a LOT getting into and out of position BEFORE even cocking the gun or firing a shot.
Once you have your position mastered, then you can start worrying about precision shooting, and that will require the artillery hold for your P-S.
The Estonians, Lithuanians, and some Italians, are great fans of the P-S so they have fashioned hamsters that have slots that allow the lever to be opened for cocking, or that are offset for the same purpose and supported from the sides. But you need to find exactly where is the preferred support point for your gun, so that you can tailor the solution to the gun you have.
Some guns like to be supported at their balance point, some prefer a little forwards, or backwards, it is very individual to the gun because it depends on the balance of masses (gun, scope, shooter's free upper body, attachments) and power/recoil. You need to find this before deciding how to create a hamster that will not interfere with the P-S mechanics, and still allow you to achieve your NSP with the harness and seat of your choice.
As for scope, if you don't want to invest in a SIGHTRON, then do try the Vortex Diamondback Tactical 6-24X50 FFP, it will allow you to use the same holdoffs that you use in HFT and it is built like a tank. Warranty is absolutely flawless.
Hope you persevere with the Open Piston Class.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I too occasionally shoot in open PCP. I have found my best results come when shooting similar to Mark. The block that I use between the knee and gun, and similar to what Mark described as using, is simply five or so of the square pyramid air pellet packaging foams taped together. I personally see this as a simple hamster that is not connected to the gun but I have been questioned about whether or not it is legal. Were the block attached firmly to the gun it would simply be a knee riser (hamster) like any other. Since this post seems to have attracted the few of us that shoot open PCP, what is the general consensus about a knee riser that isn't connected to the gun? (If it's an issue that it isn't connected, what would keep a guy from running duct tape around the top of the receiver and the bottom of the foam knee riser to "attach" it to the gun... at that point the argument could be made that it's just like a knee riser similar to a Rowan, etc).
Jesus Hector, that was a great wealth of information and knowledge. Thank you very much
Frank, I definitely wanna try those ideas
