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California's Lead Free Ammo Law - Recycling Lead Pellets

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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
California
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 142
Topic starter  

My first post here.  I live in the SF Bay area.

California's lead free ammo law, AB711, is less than 1 year away, and it does not include air gun pellets.  The wording is tricky though.  It states that "air guns are not firearms" therefore exempt.  But, other parts of state legislation define "firearms" to include air and BB guns.  So I feel like the writing is on the wall: firearm ammo will be lead free in CA by July 2019, with air gun ammo soon to follow.

This actually does not bother me as I moved to lead free pellets a while ago, just because lead is toxic and I don't like handling it, or having on my premises. 

But I have an accumulation of lead pellets collected from my traps.  I want to do the right thing and recycle properly.  But the recyclers are rather ignorant.  It took a while to convince them to accept the empty steel CO2 canisters when really, they are "standard trash" in CA.   

So any ideas on how or where to properly recycle my dead lead pellets?  And/or ideas on how to convince my local recyclers that this is less toxic than the lead batteries they already recycle?

Now, if I can only find .22 caliber lead free wadcutters, I'd be very happy!  ? 


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
Member of Trade
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 739
 
Posted by: Droidiphile

My first post here.  I live in the SF Bay area.

California's lead free ammo law..air gun pellets...So I feel like the writing is on the wall: firearm ammo will be lead free in CA by July 2019, with air gun ammo soon to follow...

It may be a little premature, but this raises some concerns for me in Texas.  I like the lead ammo I'm shooting now, mostly because it's accurate and has good knockdown power.  In other words I know what to buy and I know what to expect.  So, might we be next?

OTOH, there are some restrictions regarding all sorts of things that have been on the books on California for decades, and they've never made it here--and probably not to the rest of the country, either.  I think I'm correct in stating that your state is definitely the most restrictive of the 50 states in the union.

I'm not in a panic mode about it yet.  I'm in more of a somewhat-hopeful, wait and see mode.  If I have to switch, I will of course.  I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.

BTW, since you've already made the switch, if you have some nuggets of wisdom to lend us as to how you've been able to successfully do so and still get good results, I'd love to read that post.  I'm talking about things like target-accuracy and hunting-effectiveness results you obtained in the field.

Thanks for bring-up the subject.  It needs addressed.  Others of us including myself may be next, and it would be nice to know in advance 'how we can get there from here'.


   
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r1lover
(@r1lover)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 39
 

Post it on Craig's List and some fishermen who casts lead head jigs or sinkers or a powder burner who casts lead bullets might come pick it up, provided you have enough to make it worth their effort to come and get.


   
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Doug_Wall
(@doug_wall)
New York
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 297
 

You have a problem. Lead is hazardous waste, not recycling!

I think that you should just ship them to me. The cost of a flat rate priority mail box is going to be way less than the hazardous waste disposal fees.


   
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 

While a whole lead-acid battery may be more dangerous, due to acid, I'd say spent pellets are overall more dangerous.

More chance of lead powder, dropped pellets, ie. less self contained.

I do not disagree with your sentiments concerning lead.

 

I just helped a friend move, he had WELL over 800-1000Lbs of bullet alloy. Either in ingots or linotype.

It takes 50Lbs or a 5gal bucket to get us interested, scrap lead sells for $2/Lb or slightly more here.

Try the scrap metal recycler, not the tree hugger recycler.

As in, get PAID.

 

 


   
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(@boscoebrea)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 406
 

The metal recycler in Vallejo accepted"clean" lead... the fishermen use it to make sinkers..give it away on Craigs list...


   
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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
California
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 142
Topic starter  

For ekmeister and others interested, I'd be happy to share what I have found about lead free pellets.  I'm sure there are many knowledgeable folks here who know more than I. ?  And what works in my two pistols, may not work for you.  Let me start with cost.

Price: The accurate .22 caliber pellets range from $0.08 to $0.12 or more. That averages $1/10 shots.  So you really have to shop around.  .177 caliber can be had for $0.04 to $0.05 per pellet, or $1 per 20-25 rounds.  If you know of any great deals, pass on the info!

Hardness: not a factor.  The tin alloys used are (mostly) only slightly harder than lead.  At 10 meters, if they hit a steel back plate in a trap, they pancake just like lead.  I've shot about 2500 rounds through my Vigilante and the riflings are pristine.  2240 - ditto with even more rounds fired. ?  The one exception I found was Gamo .177 Lead free Match.  That alloy manifests as much harder and they ricochet on reactive targets and traps - very bad news at 10 meters.

Accuracy: no losses after sighting in on a rest. 

Weight: Depends on distance.  2240 - 15.5 meter public pistol range: H&N Baracuda Green or Predator GTO domed, both ~12gr ... I get better groups than most of the amateur pistoleros.  I can't compete with the officers at the prison though. ?   10 meter range: 2240 - H&N Field Target Trophy Green domed (~10gr) are fantastic.  Vigilante (.177) -  on 10 or 5 meter outdoor/indoor ranges I use H&N Match Green wad cutter at 5.25 gr, and H&N Baracuda Green domed at 6.64 gr.  Surprisingly, no dot sight adjustment needed - they both hit spot on and as good as I can shoot.

Shape: if I could get lead free wad cutters in .22, I'd use them.  I prefer that shape with reactive targets over domed.  I prefer wad cud cutters for all targets in .177.  But that is only a preference.  In .177, shape seems to be a non issue for targets. 

Hunting: Not really - I kill rats.  We live on a creek with poplars, birch and pine.  Rats come out of the tress to eat the bird seed my wife places out.  I hate rats, but I do want to be humane.  So I did a penetration test using thin leather (skin) over a 1" pork chop.  I'm weird, I know.  The meat shredder among lead free pellets is the .22 Predator GTO domed (~12gr).  At 10 meters or less, the rats do a mini flip and drop dead to the ground with a gaping hole.  The pointed rounds did penetrate better, but I find them to be less accurate.   For definitive tissue trauma on rats - Predator GTO domed.

That's all for now.  Go in peace folks !


   
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(@ekmeister)
Texas
Member of Trade
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 739
 
Posted by: Droidiphile

For ekmeister and others interested, I'd be happy to share what I have found about lead free pellets...

For all of that, especially considering the time I know it must have taken to put together your post with all those details, I want to sincerely thank you.  That gives me a good start and maybe things will work-out better than I have been imagining since this new lead-free ammo and lead-free sinkers appeared on the market, with their implications.  Of course, with fishing sinkers I'm not nearly as concerned about the change detrimentally affecting this size of my groups. 🙂

I don't need to copy your post.  I know it's here so I can refer back to it.

Thanks Again!


   
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(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 

At the ranges you shoot, you are quite right in preferring the WC's.

For farther ranges, you are also right, the GTO outperforms almost every other Non-lead pellet out there in most riflings.

SOME barrels will shoot the Barracuda Green's better, but they are usually on the tight side and powerful rifles.

You can read a little more and see test groups here:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-mauser-am03-and-shooting-the-reconstructed-original-field-course-in-delaware-co-pa  

and here:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/second-round-with-the-diana-mauser-am-03-shooting-at-difta-on-cinco-de-mayo  

Hope you enjoy!

 

HM

 


   
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Frank_in_Fairfield
(@frank_in_fairfield)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 407
 

Many big bore airgunners are casting their own pellets.

Offer it to them for shipping cost...


   
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 

Correction, scrap lead is going for $0.40-$0.50/Lb based on an internet search.

I have no idea why my friend was paid $2/Lb, but I saw the ticket. He was after my hoard!

 

This lead free idea is interesting, 2% tin makes for a much nicer wheel weight bullet alloy. I'd been using rummage sale pewter.

I would like to shoot inside more, with an LDC of course, but lead has prevented me. Perhaps I can kill 2 birds...

 

Those .177 pellet weights are also interesting.

Are these shapes identical to common lead pellets, and makers just changed the alloy?

 

Thanks for the large post on lead free, hope Cali leads the way and prices come down.

Not saying "I hope to live in Kali-Florida" but that lead IS dangerous, and I wouldn't mind reducing exposure.

Teaching kids to shoot is a great example, hands all in their face and whatnot.

 


   
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(@dcw)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 78
 

i have not read the "new" law but the existing law is air gun pellets are exempt and it was for hunting big game with powder burners.

many powder burners are turning to copper or brass for projectiles.


   
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 

With all due respect, it's California.

The steel core ammo ban also did not effect airgunners.

What it DID was give ranges a good reason to ban internally, and I expect a similar trend with lead.

Talk to a prospective range owner, or look into opening one yourself, the environmental concerns are $$$$$$$ or more.

I see no reason that ranges, NEW ranges would want lead, much simpler/safer to ban it.

Old ranges are "Grandfathered" in, but a trend will eventually emerge among new ranges.

 

We've been on a long match towards reduced toxicity, and lead is slowly, systematically being eliminated from all sorts of goods.

The trend is established, and it will march forward.

 

I suspect the areas of Cali SS which name airguns as fiearms has to do with violent crime, many states already have these laws.

Rob a 7-11 with a Red Ryder and you'll see 😉

 

WHO ELSE SHOOTS LEAD FREE HERE?

Is this a de-facto performance increase for the R9?

Which of the .177 wadcutters is softest? Heaviest?

 

I'm going to see if PA filters a search by lead free....

 


   
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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
California
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 142
Topic starter  
Posted by: dcw

i have not read the "new" law but the existing law is air gun pellets are exempt and it was for hunting big game with powder burners.

many powder burners are turning to copper or brass for projectiles.

The law is being phased in over time.  If I understand it correctly, it started out with bird shot, progressed to all ammo in the CA condor habitat, culminating on July 2019 with a complete ban on lead ammo for all "firearms".  Currently, the state language does not include air guns in their definition of "firearm", that's true.  But if you read county and local ordinances, they are written broadly and include everything, even a blow gun with darts, as a "firearm".  Then they say what you can and cannot do with a "firearm". 

Now factor in that air gun use is increasing, from the officers here at Vacaville training with cheaper alternatives, to citizens avoiding "firearm" restrictions, and our local legislators are taking a closer look. Language like "air guns may not be used in a manner that would cause harm" was changed to simply, "no firearms may be discharged except at licensed facilities".  Gun sales via home businesses were recently banned in my city. 

So yeah, I don't think it's a stretch to project a future devoid of lead pellets in my county and city.  CA can simply change their definition of "firearm" to include air guns and we air gunners will be lead free by law.

Go in peace, good people !


   
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 

It goes like this.....

09 4c

 

Everything which looks like a normal pellet, from PA.

Sorted by price Lowest-->Highest

lead free1
lead free 2
lead free 3

   
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Beezer
(@beezer)
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 19
 

Man am I glad I don't live in California. 

Lead projectiles have been used by shooters for generations.  Lead is still in use as water piping in many cities and townships. 

Lead can be safely handled if you simply follow some normal hygiene procedures.

My suggestion would be to list it on e bay, then sell it to a powder burner who casts lead bullets. 

 

 


   
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 
Posted by: Beezer

Man am I glad I don't live in C̶a̶l̶i̶f̶o̶r̶n̶i̶a̶  Flint!

 Lead is still in use as water piping in many cities and townships. 

FTFY! 😉

It's important to remember that the world is staffed by these sort of folks.

http://www.guzer.com/pictures/forklift-bomb-fail.jpg

and the TRUE reason for all those dented pellets...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jTbJ12rL9L8/U0_ZJyCMXFI/AAAAAAAATE8/7YL1fKCtnHM/s1600/warehouse+crash+fail+funny.gif


   
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Frank_in_Fairfield
(@frank_in_fairfield)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 407
 

The lead ban is for hunting only. Condors and alledgedly other animals ingest the guts and remains of shot animals and the lead gets into their system that way. There is no restriction on lead use at ranges or when target shooting..California’s ignornce lies in the fact the bans began to protect the Condor. California ignored the evidence that the California Condor has been tracked and seen in Utah, Arizona and Colorado. More is the pity.


   
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Pzhills
(@pzhills)
Wisconsin
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 85
 

So you have fallen for that political bullcrap about how bad lead is for you.  I got this from a toxicologist that explains the real and not-s0-real hazards of handling lead.  Don't be a fraidy-cat.  Take a vacation trip once a year to another state and buy all the pellets you can.

"Much of the information out there about lead poisoning is nothing more than alarmist science. I work in a toxicology lab and am always amazed at the bad rap that lead gets. Let's look at a few things:

- The lead in lead paint is in the form of organic lead and lead salts, NOT METALLIC LEAD. Both organic lead and lead salts are easily absorbed if you eat something contaminated with it or put your fingers in your mouth after handling something contaminated with it.

- Lead poisoning of waterfowl after eating the metallic lead. This is actually true and why I think so many folks are so scared of metallic lead. But there is a big difference between waterfowl and humans. Waterfowl have gizzards. The lead shot that the bird eats gets trapped in the gizard and very slowly erodes, is converted into bioavailable lead salts thanks to digestive acids, and is absorbed into the circulation. This can only occur because the lead shot gets stuck in the gizzard and is continuously ground releasing microscopic lead particles into the digestive tract.

Humans do not have a gizzard and thus a lead pellet and other metallic lead will pass thru quickly and no harm will come of it.

- But I know PB enthusiasts that have suffered lead poisoning from handling lead bullets. No you don't. The biggest problem that PB enthusiasts have with lead is from the propellant. When the propellant burns it gives off vapors of lead salts (again, not metallic lead). These lead salts are dangerous and why you should not routinely shoot a PB indoors, except in a very well ventilated range.

- What about lead dust? What if you inhale lead dust?

Have you ever seen lead dust? I bet you really haven't. It is still lead and no matter how fine a dust particle it is ground in to, it is still many, many, many, many, many times heavier than air and immediately falls to the floor. Now I'm sure that you could devise a way to inhale lead dust, but it would need to be intentionally done.

- What about that black stuff I get on my fingers after handling CPL and CPH pellets. That stuff is not lead (IIRC it is actually graphite) and even if it was lead your body has no easy way of absorbing metallic lead.

- Lead vapors, what about lead vapors? I heard they are extremely toxic. And if we are melting lead to cast our own pellets, or bullets, or fishing sinkers, then we will die.

No you won't, unless you have a really, really hot smelting furnace. Lead melts at 328 Celsius (622 F) but doesn't vaporize until around 1,700 Celsius (3,092 F). Now should you actually reach the vaporization temperature, you will have a problem.

I could go on, but will stop at this point."


   
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Frank_in_Fairfield
(@frank_in_fairfield)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 407
 
Posted by: Paul Stakun

So you have fallen for that political bullcrap about how bad lead is for you.  I got this from a toxicologist that explains the real and not-s0-real hazards of handling lead.  Don't be a fraidy-cat.  Take a vacation trip once a year to another state and buy all the pellets you can.

"Much of the information out there about lead poisoning is nothing more than alarmist science. I work in a toxicology lab and am always amazed at the bad rap that lead gets. Let's look at a few things:

- The lead in lead paint is in the form of organic lead and lead salts, NOT METALLIC LEAD. Both organic lead and lead salts are easily absorbed if you eat something contaminated with it or put your fingers in your mouth after handling something contaminated with it.

- Lead poisoning of waterfowl after eating the metallic lead. This is actually true and why I think so many folks are so scared of metallic lead. But there is a big difference between waterfowl and humans. Waterfowl have gizzards. The lead shot that the bird eats gets trapped in the gizard and very slowly erodes, is converted into bioavailable lead salts thanks to digestive acids, and is absorbed into the circulation. This can only occur because the lead shot gets stuck in the gizzard and is continuously ground releasing microscopic lead particles into the digestive tract.

Humans do not have a gizzard and thus a lead pellet and other metallic lead will pass thru quickly and no harm will come of it.

- But I know PB enthusiasts that have suffered lead poisoning from handling lead bullets. No you don't. The biggest problem that PB enthusiasts have with lead is from the propellant. When the propellant burns it gives off vapors of lead salts (again, not metallic lead). These lead salts are dangerous and why you should not routinely shoot a PB indoors, except in a very well ventilated range.

- What about lead dust? What if you inhale lead dust?

Have you ever seen lead dust? I bet you really haven't. It is still lead and no matter how fine a dust particle it is ground in to, it is still many, many, many, many, many times heavier than air and immediately falls to the floor. Now I'm sure that you could devise a way to inhale lead dust, but it would need to be intentionally done.

- What about that black stuff I get on my fingers after handling CPL and CPH pellets. That stuff is not lead (IIRC it is actually graphite) and even if it was lead your body has no easy way of absorbing metallic lead.

- Lead vapors, what about lead vapors? I heard they are extremely toxic. And if we are melting lead to cast our own pellets, or bullets, or fishing sinkers, then we will die.

No you won't, unless you have a really, really hot smelting furnace. Lead melts at 328 Celsius (622 F) but doesn't vaporize until around 1,700 Celsius (3,092 F). Now should you actually reach the vaporization temperature, you will have a problem.

I could go on, but will stop at this point."

Paul, you are absolutely correct. Clearly you were not educated in California. #46 on a list of 50 lowest educated states..


   
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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
California
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 142
Topic starter  

I'm sorry to disagree with the quote above.  First off, there is no citation - we don't know who is stating that information.  The statements above are contradicted in peer-reviewed medical research.  Here are a few quotes from an article on MedScape:

"Sites and occupations associated with lead exposure include pipe cutting, lead mining and ore crushing, lead and copper smelting, welding operations, construction, the rubber industry, the plastic industry, radiator repair, battery manufacturing, soldering of lead products, the printing industry, glass manufacture, organic lead production, solid waste combustion, frit manufacture, and paint and pigment manufacture. Persons employed in these occupations may also expose family members to lead by transporting lead dust from the workplace to their homes." <-- so this section confirms nonmetallic lead, but also metallic lead from just working with it.

"Some hobbies are associated with exposures to lead. These hobbies may include making bullets, making fishing-weights, soldering, indoor firearm shooting, and remodeling older homes."  <-- So again, the medical science contradicts the above quotation in that simply handling metallic lead can cause toxicity, and verifies exposure from non metallic lead sources.

High soil levels of lead at ranges is proven long ago.  Here is a quote from RMIT univeristy, "While there is no safe level of lead exposure, US health bodies regard 5 micrograms per deciliter of blood as the level that is cause for concern. This research finds that people using shooting ranges can record blood-lead levels as high as 40 micrograms."  If that hard core medical data does not convince you, hey man, it's your body.

Also, there is the risk analysis.  Lead exposure is so damaging that taking any risks, however trivial, are not justifiable in my mind.  Of course, it is completely your choice.

Back to the law as recently signed by Brown, it now applies to taking of all wildlife across the state of CA.  "Requires use of nonlead ammunition for taking of all wildlife in California, including game mammals, game birds, non game birds, and non game mammals, with any firearm."  So this now includes rim fire cartridges, when the previous phase was center fire only.  Even rats?  Yup. ? 

As I said way above, my city has already altered their statutes from separate definitions for "firearms" and "airguns" to lump them all together as "firearms".  Now that the lead ban applies to "any firearm", the laws are set up to easily change language to include air guns under "any firearm", as my city did, and subsequently prohibit lead ammo regardless of use. 

Use a lead pellet ... go to jail!  ? Go in peace good people!

 


   
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 

Dear Paul,

with all due respect, when you quote morons and demagogues, you yourself look like a moron and/or demagogue.

Your quote is so full of misinformation ...  where to begin?

 

Let's begin with argumentation.

Your statement begins with a logical fallacy know as "Appeal to Authority."

Anyone can look it up, and catch the first whiff of taint!

Next!
Correct reasoning, using sound premises.
#1 Socrates is a man.

#2 All men are mortal.

Correct conclusion, Socrates is mortal.

 

Inference, using sound premises.

#1 Lead is heavier than air.

#2 The human eye often fails to detect airborne lead.

Incorrect conclusion, lead cannot become airborne.

 

Does that sound legit? Lead cannot become airborne?

If that sounds fishy to you.... you might be on an airgun forum!

How about if we impart some energy to the air? 🙂

 

How about something we ALL have? Dust!

Dust is a fine particle commonly defined as less than 500 microns, and more commonly defined as capable of becoming airborne, and remaining suspended.

This alleged toxicologist does not understand the basic definition of "dust", or how particles interact with moving air. Fail, at the most basic level?

Placing graphite (a flake type dust) in a can of lead pellets effectively "dopes" the graphite with lead.

There is substantial data on heavy metal doped dust, and the high rates of absorption through inhalation. Graphite is low danger, similar pathology to silicosis, but lead etc. is readily absorbed.

News flash, no one had to eat the paint chips!

 

This alleged toxicologist's comments on metallic vs ????? are equally laughable, but if people here were interested in chemistry... nuff said... it's LOL/facepalm/crawl-under-a rock-in-shame territory. Truly.

 

Or.... I can put it in layman's terms.

Has anyone ever seen mercury float in water?

Then how do fish contain mercury?

Yes they do.

 

 

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone and I'm FAR FAR from being a treehugger.

There isn't always a lot I can contribute here, so I lurk.

Providing a logical path to the truth is the best I could do today.

 


   
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 

BTW, this thread was supposed to be about pellets and or lead.

Not "California is my Dad, and he beats me!"

 

I'd love to do some testing, but before I buy $200 worth of pellets...gonna be needin a new chrony. IIa bullet resistant would be nice. X-(

Seriously though.There might be some potential to improve BC with lighter than lead alloys allowing a more traditional bullet form.
I'm envisioning a 6.5 inspired .177 heavy dome.

Time to go look at that thread about pellet BC charting!


   
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(@jeff-c)
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 28
 

I did not read all these post but it reminds me of the lead ban 20 plus years ago when I went out and bought a big bunch of lead fishing weights. I don't think I been fishing since but it was so cheap at the time and still feel good about it. I can't afford pellets right now. I know they cam make good pellets with something other than lead but its gonna cost more than I can afford and like the guy said its hunting only at this point but they keep chipping away at it but you know me I don 't complain. Ca guy

 

Side note the new stuff will probably turn out to be 10 times worse in years to come. we eat bad food and live with toxins and bad air but Humans still get bigger and stronger and smarter every year. 50 years from now I predict a world full of giants. Its happened before.


   
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(@miles_m)
United Kingdom
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 67
 
Posted by: Gratewhitehuntr

Seriously though.There might be some potential to improve BC with lighter than lead alloys allowing a more traditional bullet form.
I'm envisioning a 6.5 inspired .177 heavy dome.

Time to go look at that thread about pellet BC charting!

The problem with making true bullet shaped pellets out of none lead materials is that the twist rates on most airgun barrels are insufficient for stability. The popular way to get around this problem is to move the centre of gravity forward by making the back of the projectile hollow. However, in doing this you are changing the ballistic properties (moments of inertia, aerodynamic overturning moments etc.) to less favourable values thus losing a lot of the advantages. Drag will still be lower but accuracy may be difficult to obtain unless the projectile is matched to the barrel.


   
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RedFeather
(@redfeather)
Virginia
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 199
 

Virginia Tech conducted a test of lead oxidation rates on bullets in the ground. The coating only goes so deep and then stabilizes. A Minie ball shot 150 years ago has no thicker costing than a pellet from the last few years. End result: the oxide prevents further leaching into the soil. Still, my range has to replace the surface of the berms every so many years, just to play it safe.

My interest in guns started over forty years ago with muzzle loading. Back then, shooters at a match might keep roundballs at the ready in their mouths. Not any more! We started getting careful in handling lead a long time ago, be it casting, storing or shooting. Even smokeless shooters are now taking precautions. Another local range has a special hand soap in the rest rooms with instructions to use cold water to close your pores. Lead poisoning is no joke. Oh, and regarding the above "ex-spurt" quote, I'd buy a ticket to see someone shoot black powder indoors.

Back on topic, I'm curious about rate of twist. The Greenhill formula uses a constant for the specific gravity of a lead cored bullet. When the possibility of a lead ban first arose, companies came up with copper alloys such as Barnes's X bullet. Different specific gravities yet they still shot very well in standard twist guns. I'm guessing non-lead pellets would have similar accuracy.


   
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T3P-Ranch
(@t3p-ranch)
Texas
Member of Trade
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 18
 

Dust is a fine particle commonly defined as less than 500 microns, and more commonly defined as capable of becoming airborne, and remaining suspended.

The above  statement is WRONG! An aluminum drink can is 70 to 80 microns thick. Dust is typically 5 microns and smaller particle size.


   
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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Florida
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1882
 

Please provide a citation which disputes 500 microns, or .002",  an arbitrary number, likely related to flammability concerns.

It might be worth noticing the common sense definition immediately following?

Or...

Perhaps your energy would be better spent debating the authors of this chart?

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/particle-sizes-d_934.html500

 

You'll kindly notice the size of a period (.) listed as 615 microns, lead dust at 0.1-0.7 microns and red blood cells 5-10 microns.

Quite a few entries exceed the arbitrary 500 micron mark, yet still feature due to "particle size distribution".

 

I'd encourage you to take you mic out and measure some cans, to verify the info you posted. If you did already, then your mic may need calibrated, or you need a larger sample of cans.

I'm getting between .0003" and .0005" or  7-13 microns approx, on side walls.

Notice that these measurements include pigmented plastic coating and such small measurements are problematic by nature, but I'm NOT off by a factor of 10
Get your facts straight, if you can. 😉

 

Regarding twist rates...

If evoltions in powder burners will likely be ammo related, and twist will follow however it needs to, I just assumed that airguns would go the same way.

Job security!

 

Red, you are basically correct, as we would expect.

However, the Minnie which bit the dirt is not apples/apples. No one during the Civil War was ringing a gong till  their thumb got tired of loading mags.
I've been continually impressed by how thoroughly even medium powered airguns can powderize pellets, often with near zero recoverable remains.

 

 

Empirical data.

I've  cleaned no less that 30 chickens grown in my own yard, semi-freerange.

Not once have I found a lead pellet in a gizzard, never.

Several birds had upwards of a dozen steel BBs, and accompanying signs of metal toxicity.

Once a bird stole/ate some stainless hardware, with a smug look on her face. "HA! Holdin out on me EH?"

More than a few peeps suffocated in a bucket of dihydrogen monoxide.

Never 1 pellet, this leads me to suspect that upland type birds do not willingly injest lead. Smaller pellets might yeild different results.

 

 

 

 


   
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(@miles_m)
United Kingdom
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 67
 

Air rifle twist rates tend to be much lower than they are in firearm rifles of comperable calibres. This is because they are driven by the needs of diabolo pellets many of which are aerodynamically stable at normal air rifle speeds and thus do not need high twist rates. In fact, because their aerodynamic stability is marginal, many are aerogyro stabilised using a combination of aero stabilisation supplemented by gyro stabilisation.

Typical twist rates for many air rifles are around one turn in 16 inches or more. Studies I carried out on the effects of twist rates on sub 12FPE rifles suggested the optimum twist rate was between one turn in 16 to 50 inches for .22 calibre. This only looked at one pellet type and one type of error so results may well be different for different diabolo pellet designs but it was encouraging that it agreed with the results of evolutionary design in air guns.

For twist rates of one turn in less than 16 inches there was a rapid increase in errors which would give larger group sizes. For solid bullet shaped projectiles without a hollow rear twist rates of one turn in 12 inches or less will probably be required for gyroscopic stability which would make the rifle unsuitable for diabolo pellet use and thus restrict its market appeal.

When I was working we tested and tracked some solid none lead bullets from military rifles. It was one of these which was the only bullet I have seen go completely unstable after a short distance from the gun. It was tracked by multiple systems so we knew it was a real event, not an instrumentation failure.


   
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Pzhills
(@pzhills)
Wisconsin
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 85
 
Posted by: Gratewhitehuntr

Dear Paul,

with all due respect, when you quote morons and demagogues, you yourself look like a moron and/or demagogue.

Your quote is so full of misinformation ...  where to begin?

Let's begin with argumentation.

Your statement begins with a logical fallacy know as "Appeal to Authority."

Anyone can look it up, and catch the first whiff of taint!

Next!
Correct reasoning, using sound premises.
#1 Socrates is a man.

#2 All men are mortal.

Correct conclusion, Socrates is mortal.

 

Inference, using sound premises.

#1 Lead is heavier than air.

#2 The human eye often fails to detect airborne lead.

Incorrect conclusion, lead cannot become airborne.

 

Does that sound legit? Lead cannot become airborne?

If that sounds fishy to you.... you might be on an airgun forum!

How about if we impart some energy to the air? 🙂

 

How about something we ALL have? Dust!

Dust is a fine particle commonly defined as less than 500 microns, and more commonly defined as capable of becoming airborne, and remaining suspended.

This alleged toxicologist does not understand the basic definition of "dust", or how particles interact with moving air. Fail, at the most basic level?

Placing graphite (a flake type dust) in a can of lead pellets effectively "dopes" the graphite with lead.

There is substantial data on heavy metal doped dust, and the high rates of absorption through inhalation. Graphite is low danger, similar pathology to silicosis, but lead etc. is readily absorbed.

News flash, no one had to eat the paint chips!

 

This alleged toxicologist's comments on metallic vs ????? are equally laughable, but if people here were interested in chemistry... nuff said... it's LOL/facepalm/crawl-under-a rock-in-shame territory. Truly.

 

Or.... I can put it in layman's terms.

Has anyone ever seen mercury float in water?

Then how do fish contain mercury?

Yes they do.

 

 

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone and I'm FAR FAR from being a treehugger.

There isn't always a lot I can contribute here, so I lurk.

Providing a logical path to the truth is the best I could do today.

 

Due respect?  Hey, not so grate white hunter, I only quoted someone claiming to be a toxicologist, who makes some valid points, IMO.  If you don't agree, you don't have to behave like a sphincter.


   
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(@dcw)
California
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 78
 

jeeeeeeee...

like my dad used to say: "If you listen to doctors, you'd be living in a vacuum."

i recently had cancer removed from my, one and only, kidney. i was told it was from either my smoking (which i terminated over 50 years ago) or working with natural gas and/or it's by products from combustion (heat, water vapor and carbon dioxide) for 32 years.

i've also been told my hearing loss is result of  being around gun fire and heavy artillery without hearing protection.

i've handled firearms, ammo, propellants and projectiles since i was a youth in jr high school not once have i been told that my ailments were a result of lead bullets/pellets or fishing sinkers...

i think anything you want to find, you can find if you look hard enough; it depends mostly on how much time, effort and $$$$ you're willing to spend looking for it. is the cure worse than the disease? i think legislators are worse than many things they legislate against.

lead (metallic) has been mentioned as being one of the factors of the fall of the roman empire due to the extensive use of it as eating utensils, plumbing and ornamental; it was said Nero had lead poisoning symptoms as did other rulers, causing erratic behavior patterns. in today's world...we do not eat from lead plates and drink from lead cups...

it's also a fact that sheet lead was used as water reservoirs in 17th and 18th century france's ruling aristocracy mansions and palaces...

i think the biggest threat from lead (bullets/pellets) is if they are shot at you...

 

 


   
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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
California
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 142
Topic starter  
Posted by: Miles_M
Posted by: Gratewhitehuntr

Seriously though.There might be some potential to improve BC with lighter than lead alloys allowing a more traditional bullet form.
I'm envisioning a 6.5 inspired .177 heavy dome.

Time to go look at that thread about pellet BC charting!

The problem with making true bullet shaped pellets out of none lead materials is that the twist rates on most airgun barrels are insufficient for stability. The popular way to get around this problem is to move the centre of gravity forward by making the back of the projectile hollow. However, in doing this you are changing the ballistic properties (moments of inertia, aerodynamic overturning moments etc.) to less favourable values thus losing a lot of the advantages. Drag will still be lower but accuracy may be difficult to obtain unless the projectile is matched to the barrel.

With regard to twist rate for pellets: for ballistic stability, the center of gravity must be in front of the center of pressure - with reference to the direction of travel, of course. There is no center of pressure until the object starts flying through air, hence this relationship does not occur until the projectile is moving.  On missiles, you can easily adjust this placement of the "two centers" by putting passive fins on the rear of the fuselage and/or a weight in the nose.  On a pellet, one way to accomplish this is by the exact proportions of the diabolo --> you want most weight in the head and most aerodynamic drag on the tail.  The waist of the diabolo shape naturally creates excellent weight distribution.  Also, the waist causes eddy currents that create so much dense air that it acts like a solid and external air slips over it, similar to a bullet shape.  On a solid bullet shape you have no control over placement of the "centers" via weight distribution (toward the front) or drag (toward the rear).  So, for a bullet shape, the twist rate becomes much more important for stability - Omega or rotational inertia.  A diabolo shape almost has inherent aerodynamic stability.  Put twist on it, and you start to see that accuracy we have come to to expect from modern pellets. 

Some of the changes I would like to see are simply longer lead free diabolo shaped pellets.  This could/would make them heavier, and should improve stability.  The drawbacks are more cost (more materials) and size limitations on the breech/magazines/clips.

By all means, please comment!

This thread seems to have taken a new road - but at least we are still talking about lead free pellets!  ?


   
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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Louisiana
Rest In Peace
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 510
 

Without getting on the "right" or "wrong" of the lead question, just keeping to the PERCEPTION of lead contamination.

 

Lets pose a question (and really not an out of bounds question).

LEts say you lived on the property for 10-15 years. Being an avid airgunner, have likely shoot AT LEAT 3,000 shots a year (and +20,000 wouldn't surprise me in the slightest).

Plinking, spinners, steel targets,field targets, etc. Just Pharting around in the back yard (lets call that a genrous 1/2 ac.

So every year, likly 1/2the pellets aren't in self-contained pellet traps. So lets go with 3K shots a year (call it 6 tins of 500 pellets), at something like an average of 15gr.a pellet. Which is more like 6.5 pounds of lead. Lets say only 1/4 of that was shot at back-yard reactive targets...call that 1.6 pounds of lead.

Do that for 10 years, and that's 16 pounds of lead spread over 1/2 ac. Yeah...likely that would be spread over the back 20% of that 1/2 ac. as that's where the "splatter" or "plinking" targets were.

So it comes time to sell, and home sales are really major money...and you live in a "paranoid state" (although they'll all be freaked out).

Do you:

1. discose the information (and most states require you to do)?
2. don't discolse the information and hope no one ever checks until after you are dead and gone?
3. Spend the $ to remediate the lead layer? (clean up or encapsulation).
4. Don't give a rat's rump, as I've no inttnion of ever moving and I'm not all that fond of my heirs.

It's a serious question, how serious depends on (1) you locaation and (2) how freaked out potential buyers are about haz mat.

We've seen it with lead based paint....with asbestos...lead free primers....even with mercury thermostats/light switches...etc.  Doesn't really matter if "they" are right or wrong (although I notice we are all buying lead-free gasoline).

So fellas...self containing lead traps. If you are addticed to steel "spatter targets" then set them in a wide-door enclosure (like one of the little self-standing garden tool outdoor lockers) so you can collect it rather than just spread it around.

Personally...I'm going with #4 above.


   
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(@miles_m)
United Kingdom
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 67
 
Posted by: Droidiphile
 
With regard to twist rate for pellets: for ballistic stability, the center of gravity must be in front of the center of pressure - with reference to the direction of travel, of course. There is no center of pressure until the object starts flying through air, hence this relationship does not occur until the projectile is moving.  On missiles, you can easily adjust this placement of the "two centers" by putting passive fins on the rear of the fuselage and/or a weight in the nose.  On a pellet, one way to accomplish this is by the exact proportions of the diabolo --> you want most weight in the head and most aerodynamic drag on the tail.  The waist of the diabolo shape naturally creates excellent weight distribution.  Also, the waist causes eddy currents that create so much dense air that it acts like a solid and external air slips over it, similar to a bullet shape.  On a solid bullet shape you have no control over placement of the "centers" via weight distribution (toward the front) or drag (toward the rear).  So, for a bullet shape, the twist rate becomes much more important for stability - Omega or rotational inertia.  A diabolo shape almost has inherent aerodynamic stability.  Put twist on it, and you start to see that accuracy we have come to to expect from modern pellets. Some of the changes I would like to see are simply longer lead free diabolo shaped pellets.  This could/would make them heavier, and should improve stability.  The drawbacks are more cost (more materials) and size limitations on the breech/magazines/clips.
By all means, please comment!
This thread seems to have taken a new road - but at least we are still talking about lead free pellets!  ?

By ballistic stability I assume you are talking about aerodynamic stability. Apart from a few bomblets I don't know of any projectiles which employ drag stability. Pellets are not drag stabilised and the position of the centre of pressure has practically nothing to do with drag. If pellets were drag stabilised because the tail drag is greater than the nose drag at subsonic speeds then the same would be true of slug type pellets since they too have a base drag greater than the nose drag.

Aerodynamic stability is governed by aerodynamic moments, not forces and the drag force on a fixed tail such as that on a pellet has only a tiny moment arm, if any, and thus cannot provide any stabilising moments. However, as soon as a pellet is at an angle of yaw then the flare tail produces lift which has a long moment arm and thus produces a stabilising moment.

It is easier to understand if you consider normal and axial forces based on the pellets axis system rather than lift and drag. The axial force has no moment arm about the centre of gravity where as the normal force has a relatively large moment arm. The recent YouTube publication claiming to explain pellet stability from South Africa was completely wrong in its attempts at explanation. I counted over twenty basic mistakes in that one video.

As for a long diabolo pellet made of none lead materials you would have a very high drag from such a design giving poor energy retention and very poor wind response. The ballistic properties could also be compromised in such a design due to the poor moments of inertia ratios causing poor yaw behaviour.

 


   
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James_D
(@james_d)
Pennsylvania
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 101
 

I'll leave the ballistic sciences to the above posters, and ask what a good source of learning is for me on such things. 

For Ribbonstone's post. Very good questions. Your scenario is higher than my reality but I'm asking as my 19 month old boy allegedly has an elevated reading. They wish to drawl blood from a vein & GCMS to type where it came from. If it comes back as processed pellet lead, I'm going to feel beyond really bad. He's fine in all aspects, and we were told it's only slightly elevated (PPB??? tell me Doc!) and that higher readings are normal in this part of PA.

I own 1.58 acres and in every direction out is fields or woods. Neighbors all are friends who allow me to pest/hunt/plink their land anytime. I don't hunt anymore but I do pest & Red Squirrels are a current problem. Back on topic.

I wised up quite awhile ago & realized throwing it everywhere just isn't responsible. I then made capture traps for basement, and back stops (man made or natural berms are required in this Township for firearm use) for my pellets with 2 astro turf carpets laid out in front. I easily recover 1/2 or more of all lead shot this way. Saved for possible casting in future.

If you looked at a satellite photo of my area, you'd see our well is placed at a low water flow choke point. This is my 1st house but everything passed tests (allegedly) and I'm going to an environmental lab on my own to find out if it be the water, or if a stray pellet found it's way into my boys mouth & system.

Wife, Daughter, I, haven't been tested. I could see my levels being elevated. At 18-19 months old though, and main consumption was formula, milk, bottled water, I can only surmise he somehow ingested a pellet. All of my lead is in tins, in a safe. It's not impossible that a pellet in one of my pockets fell out somewhere though. I wash my hands after shooting; but did I do it good enough? 

Also, I plan on asking for details, not just the answer they gave the wife. What's considered elevated in Parts per million or billion per nanoliter?


   
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(@miles_m)
United Kingdom
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 67
 
Posted by: James Dingle

I'll leave the ballistic sciences to the above posters, and ask what a good source of learning is for me on such things. 

 

It depends on the level of complication and maths you want to use. I worked for nearly 40 years on projectile external ballistics and aerodynamics having obtained a degree in aeronautics so that is the basis of my comments. There is McCoy's book on external ballistics but like most others it is maths heavy and does contain some typing mistakes.

The best advice I can give anyone is:-

1. Ignore anything you see or hear on YouTube on the subject.

2. Ignore 99.99%  of what is printed in magazines on the subject.

In both cases the people presenting the "expert" views show a distinct lack of knowledge on the subject. There are a few people who do know about the subject and probably the best thing to do is to just ask on some of the forums, including the UK based forums. I have written a few explanations on basic concepts such as stability and wind response on the UK based airgunforum.

Getting back to none lead pellets what is required is a scientific approach to projectile design by people with a full knowledge of the problem and the theory behind projectile design. Unfortunately it has been my personal experience that such knowledge is distinctly lacking in the small arms ammunition industry in general and the airgun industry in particular.


   
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(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 
Miles, you wrote:

"As for a long diabolo pellet made of none lead materials you would have a very high drag from such a design giving poor energy retention and very poor wind response. The ballistic properties could also be compromised in such a design due to the poor moments of inertia ratios causing poor yaw behaviour."

I am not so sure I agree with you.

Take the 0.177" JSB EXACTS and the FT Premiums:

BOTH are 8.44 grs.

BOTH have the same head design

The Premiums are made using the Express  (&.89 grs) external die with a shorter punch, so they are shorter than the EXACTS

Yet, they consistently show a decreased BC (increased drag) than the original EXACTS.

I think that if your statement was right, then the reverse would be the case. ¿no?

Would appreciate any comment back.

Thanks in advance!

 

HM


   
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(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 
Posted by: James Dingle

I'll leave the ballistic sciences to the above posters, and ask what a good source of learning is for me on such things. 

For Ribbonstone's post. Very good questions. Your scenario is higher than my reality but I'm asking as my 19 month old boy allegedly has an elevated reading. They wish to drawl blood from a vein & GCMS to type where it came from. If it comes back as processed pellet lead, I'm going to feel beyond really bad. He's fine in all aspects, and we were told it's only slightly elevated (PPB??? tell me Doc!) and that higher readings are normal in this part of PA.

I own 1.58 acres and in every direction out is fields or woods. Neighbors all are friends who allow me to pest/hunt/plink their land anytime. I don't hunt anymore but I do pest & Red Squirrels are a current problem. Back on topic.

I wised up quite awhile ago & realized throwing it everywhere just isn't responsible. I then made capture traps for basement, and back stops (man made or natural berms are required in this Township for firearm use) for my pellets with 2 astro turf carpets laid out in front. I easily recover 1/2 or more of all lead shot this way. Saved for possible casting in future.

If you looked at a satellite photo of my area, you'd see our well is placed at a low water flow choke point. This is my 1st house but everything passed tests (allegedly) and I'm going to an environmental lab on my own to find out if it be the water, or if a stray pellet found it's way into my boys mouth & system.

Wife, Daughter, I, haven't been tested. I could see my levels being elevated. At 18-19 months old though, and main consumption was formula, milk, bottled water, I can only surmise he somehow ingested a pellet. All of my lead is in tins, in a safe. It's not impossible that a pellet in one of my pockets fell out somewhere though. I wash my hands after shooting; but did I do it good enough? 

Also, I plan on asking for details, not just the answer they gave the wife. What's considered elevated in Parts per million or billion per nanoliter?

James, 

I have the same problem.

My kids usually test "high" at the Peds' office, but test perfectly normal once the blood is drawn.

IIUC, the "normal" lead level is between 1 and 4 Ug (Micrograms) per deciliter of blood, 5 requires action.

My kids tested 5 and 7 at the Ped's office, but tested 1 or less than 1 when blood was drawn.

I SUSPECT that what really happens is that shooting lead pellets at current MV's will produce lead DUST. That dust IS metallic and therefore sticks to skin. It does not penetrate, nor gets assimilated, but it does stick to skin.

When the kids roam around the house, get into the workshop, or rub against clothing that is used while shooting or handling pellet traps, or other places where lead dust is present, it rubs onto their skin.
Ped's use the prick in finger test to get an indication, but the test is intrinsically weak if there is surface skin contamination.

It is heart-wrenching to see your little one cry when blood is being drawn, but it is absolutely necessary to do so.

If the kid is ingesting the dust that is rubbed from you/your clothes onto him/her, then you need to know.

After two "false-positives" we're re-thinking the way we get the kids tested for lead as part of his and her wellness visits.

HTH

 

 

 

 

HM


   
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(@miles_m)
United Kingdom
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 67
 
Posted by: Hector J Medina G
Miles, you wrote:

"As for a long diabolo pellet made of none lead materials you would have a very high drag from such a design giving poor energy retention and very poor wind response. The ballistic properties could also be compromised in such a design due to the poor moments of inertia ratios causing poor yaw behaviour."

I am not so sure I agree with you.

Take the 0.177" JSB EXACTS and the FT Premiums:

BOTH are 8.44 grs.

BOTH have the same head design

The Premiums are made using the Express  (&.89 grs) external die with a shorter punch, so they are shorter than the EXACTS

Yet, they consistently show a decreased BC (increased drag) than the original EXACTS.

I think that if your statement was right, then the reverse would be the case. ¿no?

Would appreciate any comment back.

Thanks in advance!

 

HM

HM

The Premium is a pellet I don't have detailed information on but looking at what detailed information there is on the Express, which you say is the same shape, there are some things which stand out immediately. According to photographs and dimensioned drawings of sectioned pellets the noses are not quite the same, one being .35 calibres long and the other being .3. The difference is only small but could be significant at higher speeds above the 12FPE limit. However, having said that, some pictures tend to suggest the nose is the same on both pellets so it looks to me as if the shape may be a bit variable from batch to batch.

The JSB Express also has a reputation in the UK for having a very low drag compared to similar JSB products, some very high values of BC having been measured by different testers. This would tend to go against what you have said but, it is all for sub 12FPE in the UK.

Slight differences in the nose shape would have more significance than just the drag on the nose itself. The shorter nose will have a sharper angle for the air to turn through when it reaches the shoulder. This will affect the airflow over the back of the pellet and may not be favourable if the airflow does not see the back of the pellet at all.

The extra weight of the Premium in a shorter pellet may have several additional effects. For one the shape of the pellet after it has left the barrel. On the Exacts distortion of the flare is fairly common, producing a more cylindrical shape at the rear which will increase base pressure and thus reduce drag. The Premium being shorter and stiffer may not have as much distortion and thus not have the drag benefit, but should be more consistent. Finally, though perhaps more improbable, the Premium will have different longitudinal moments of inertia and aerodynamic moments due to the change in the CG position which may produce different yawing bahaviour. Now knowing haw sensitive pellets are to any yaw I would not expect there to be any significant precession yaw but nutation yaw could be present without affecting group size significantly but slightly increasing yaw drag, particularly at longer ranges.

Getting back to long none lead pellets, many years ago I managed to get some shapes tested in one of the subsonic wind tunnels we had at that time. They were flare stabilised bomblets and it was pure coincidence that they happened to look just like pellets. Honest. The results from those tests suggested the air turned through around 5 degrees behind the pellet shoulder to meet the flare close to the back of the pellet. The longer the pellet the more of the flare the air would see and that is why I believe the drag will increase, both on the flare itself and the base drag. Data measured by Gerald Cardew many years ago which he gave to me to analyse also suggested long heavy pellets had higher drag coefficients than shorter lighter pellets. This was not just at lower speeds but also at high pellet speeds though of course the results were dependent on the particular pellet designs he was testing. Thus, for a long none lead pellet, I would expect the flare to be exposed to a lot of the airflow and thus produce more drag which will not have any benefit in stability but will increase energy loss.

Miles


   
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(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 

There is a three part analysis of the JSB FT Premium pellets,  first part in my blog,  the two other parts in Tom Gaylord's blog:

First part is here:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/is-this-the-beginning-of-a-legend  

Second part is here:

https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2015/07/field-target-team-usas-test-of-the-jsb-ft-premium-pellets-part-1/  

Third part is here:

https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2015/07/field-target-team-usas-test-of-the-jsb-ft-premium-pellets-part-2/  

 

We concluded, from our tests (4 shooters, 5 guns -all at WFTF level-, 600 pellets and one air-gauger), that the shorter pellets did have a lower BC than the longer pellets of the same weight.

I do agree with you that nutation COULD be skewing these results as they make the rear end of the pellet appear bigger to the airflow.

I don't know how much confidence you have in that 5 degree angle between trailing edge of head and leading edge of skirt, but it COULD point a good way to design longer pellets to be made out tin.

Now, if we are truly candid, what determines which pellets can have a tin version is the success of the lead model. Economies and demand are not at the point where we can ask manufacturers to come up with specially designed pellets in tin.

Thanks for your thoughtful and enlightening answer. Greatly appreciated.

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM

 

 


   
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(@miles_m)
United Kingdom
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 67
 
Posted by: Hector J Medina G

There is a three part analysis of the JSB FT Premium pellets,  first part in my blog,  the two other parts in Tom Gaylord's blog:

First part is here:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/is-this-the-beginning-of-a-legend  

 

HM

 

 

Looking at the photographs of the Express and the Premium in your blog with a projectile aerodynamicist's eye I would say that the Premiums are a significantly less aerodynamic shape and am not surprised that they came out worse.

But then I would say that knowing the results. ? 

As for the 5 degrees, it is a function of the nose shape, on a reasonable nose shape it should not be far away, certainly for a true hemisphere. The wind tunnel tests were carried out at pellet type Reynolds numbers.

Miles


   
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(@hector_j_medina_g)
Maryland
Moderator
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1292
 

Excellent info, Miles!

Thanks again!

 

 

 

HM


   
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James_D
(@james_d)
Pennsylvania
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 101
 

Thank you very much Hector. The exact numbers, full explanation is very good to know and would make sense. I don't shoot around the children, but I'm his caretaker 24/7 so I can see the skin contamination. Again, thank you, I feel much better & will let you know of results. I also know now what to ask Doctors instead of just accepting there incomplete answer.

Thank you Miles on The book reference. Ever think about coming out of retirement so we don't have anymore flyers? LOL, GB ya all. Happy Turkey Day


   
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