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Beeman Crow Magnum vs. Theoben Eliminator Power Specs  

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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 292
May 18, 2020 13:38:26  

For many years I thought the Crow Magnum was just an Eliminator with a different stock.  After looking through the Blue Book 12th edition I see some discrepancies:

1.  Crow Magnum velocities are higher compared to the eliminator.

2.  Theoben Eliminator section says the eliminator model incorporated an improved barrel design featuring pronounced rifling for higher velocity pellets.

** Sold all my crow magnums, so I cannot make a visual comparison now**

Claim #2 doesn't make sense to me since the Crow magnum is more powerful on paper. 

Eliminator specs - from blue book 12th edition:

.177 1100 fps, .22 900 fps

Crow Magnum specs:

.20 1060 fps, .22 1035 fps, .25 815 fps.

Another question is the type of pellets used go generate these numbers.  According to Beeman's literature, they were using Beeman Laser pellets to establish power specs for their guns.

If that is the case, how do we know what is a safe power range when these guns need to be rebuilt?

Example:  Eliminator

.22 (13.36) laser pellet fired at 900 fps:  24.04 ft. lbs.

.22 (21.14) kodiak pellet fired at 900 fps: 38.03 ft. lbs.

I recently replaced the Schrader valve in a Beeman RX-1.   Average chrony fps is 1007 with Kodiak match pellet:  23.99 ft. lbs.  Gun is incredibly accurate at this pressure.

RX-1 specs according to Blue book:

.177 1125

.177 (7.1gr) Beeman laser at 1125 is 19.96 ft. lbs.

.177 (10.65) Beeman Kodiak at 1125 is 29.94 ft. lbs.

So if we stay within the minimum and maximum specs (and the gun is accurate) we won't burn out seals or over stress parts?

 

 

 

 


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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
May 18, 2020 14:34:57  

Sonny I suspect that CM specs were based on Doc Beeman wanting to sell the fast gun in town. I was told at the Theoben factory that other than the markings and the stock the guns were identical. This was later confirmed to me by Don Walker (service foreman at Beeman) and Dave Slade.

Based on that, I have always used Theoben's specs and have never had an issue on several RX's, CM's and Eliminator's.


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straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 200
May 18, 2020 18:06:07  

This should paint a closer picture; I believe Kevin & Craig used a pair of Ohlers:

https://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ourtakeeliminator.html

I'd like to have another Eliminator but it might be a tough call between that and the current Weihrauch HW90. I can't help but think they have got it right as far as power from the powerplant. It has been in production for an awfully looong time. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the RX2 the same as the HW90? It looks pretty good in .22 for ME. Looks to be a pretty flat shooter in .177.

https://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ourtakerx2.html

What's the differences between the RX1 and RX2?

 


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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
May 18, 2020 18:37:29  
Posted by: @straitflite

This should paint a closer picture; I believe Kevin & Craig used a pair of Ohlers:

https://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ourtakeeliminator.html

I'd like to have another Eliminator but it might be a tough call between that and the current Weihrauch HW90. I can't help but think they have got it right as far as power from the powerplant. It has been in production for an awfully looong time. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the RX2 the same as the HW90? It looks pretty good in .22 for ME. Looks to be a pretty flat shooter in .177.

https://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ourtakerx2.html

What's the differences between the RX1 and RX2?

 

I found that SS RX gun was weak in .20 versus Theobens specs. The RX and the HW 90 is the same gun, but back in the Beeman days was not supposed to be imported to the US. Beeman put a premium on his guns and didn't want the same gun sold cheaper. The only difference that I'm aware of is the RX2 came with the laminated (very heavy) stock that some people found easier to shoot.

 


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Jim in Mich
(@jim-in-mich)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 27
May 20, 2020 05:28:37  

I've played around with power settings on my .22 Eliminator and with its favorite pellet 15.89 JSBs it likes 810fps which is 23 fpe...gun is pretty docile and dead nuts accurate at that setting! The trigger on this gun is also the best I've ever had on any Theoben...

Jim in Mich 


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Beeman22
(@beeman22)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 111
May 20, 2020 13:48:52  

In addition to Doc Beeman's marketing strategy, the numbers may also not be apples-to-apples because I think there were actually 4 different variants of the CM/Eliminator. As I recall, the seal design and some other internal changes took place with each new version. I also think that the power potential was reduced in the 3rd and fourth variants, at least that's my recollection. I'll need to dig out my old beeman catalogs later today and look. 


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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
May 20, 2020 14:18:25  
Posted by: @beeman22

In addition to Doc Beeman's marketing strategy, the numbers may also not be apples-to-apples because I think there were actually 4 different variants of the CM/Eliminator. As I recall, the seal design and some other internal changes took place with each new version. I also think that the power potential was reduced in the 3rd and fourth variants, at least that's my recollection. I'll need to dig out my old beeman catalogs later today and look. 

I think you are correct. There was over pressuring issues created by owners that caused the seals to burn in some of the early modes. I recently learned that they also changed the ram retention to the tube from a cross pin to a snap ring in the last versions.

 


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straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 200
May 20, 2020 20:42:19  

I seem to recall that the Dampa mount may have been responsible for, or part of one of the revisions.


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Cruisers
(@cruisers)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 89
May 23, 2020 21:09:20  

Sonny when you replaced the Schrader valve on the RX what pressure did you wind up leaving it? Also, from many sources I learned that Beeman arrived at their magazine velocity figures using the Beeman Silver Bear. I remember using them and the figures I got were very close to the mag figures.


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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 292
May 24, 2020 00:43:42  

I left it at 1000fps using a Kodiak Match pellet.  Tried it on a few critters to confirm potency and accuracy.  Cocking and recoil is now significant for this RX.  I'm used to these heavy hitters so it doesn't bother me one bit. 

I remember reading somewhere the silver bear was standard too, but I looked at the 20th anniversary airgun guide and it said the laser was the baseline - so I stuck with that.


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Cruisers
(@cruisers)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 89
May 25, 2020 10:18:48  

Sonny, I know your speed would depend a lot on the pellet used. What I was asking was the final Pressure you left it charged to.


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sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 292
May 25, 2020 17:07:55  

I have the pressure gauge but I suspect something like that will alter the pressure when unscrewing it.  So I'm working with general velocity and pellet weight guidelines from the net, blue book, and beeman literature.  My goal is as much power as accurately possible before I get too old to cock these guns.  I've read 23 or 24 bar max for the rx series.  I wonder what David slade's process is.  Does he just use the gauge and not shoot the gun, or does he shoot the gun until it reaches a velocity sweet spot based on experience?        


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Talldog
(@talldog)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 43
May 27, 2020 19:44:27  
Posted by: @sonnysan

For many years I thought the Crow Magnum was just an Eliminator with a different stock.  After looking through the Blue Book 12th edition I see some discrepancies:

1.  Crow Magnum velocities are higher compared to the eliminator.

2.  Theoben Eliminator section says the eliminator model incorporated an improved barrel design featuring pronounced rifling for higher velocity pellets.

** Sold all my crow magnums, so I cannot make a visual comparison now**

Claim #2 doesn't make sense to me since the Crow magnum is more powerful on paper. 

Eliminator specs - from blue book 12th edition:

.177 1100 fps, .22 900 fps

Crow Magnum specs:

.20 1060 fps, .22 1035 fps, .25 815 fps.

Another question is the type of pellets used go generate these numbers.  According to Beeman's literature, they were using Beeman Laser pellets to establish power specs for their guns.

If that is the case, how do we know what is a safe power range when these guns need to be rebuilt?

Example:  Eliminator

.22 (13.36) laser pellet fired at 900 fps:  24.04 ft. lbs.

.22 (21.14) kodiak pellet fired at 900 fps: 38.03 ft. lbs.

I recently replaced the Schrader valve in a Beeman RX-1.   Average chrony fps is 1007 with Kodiak match pellet:  23.99 ft. lbs.  Gun is incredibly accurate at this pressure.

RX-1 specs according to Blue book:

.177 1125

.177 (7.1gr) Beeman laser at 1125 is 19.96 ft. lbs.

.177 (10.65) Beeman Kodiak at 1125 is 29.94 ft. lbs.

So if we stay within the minimum and maximum specs (and the gun is accurate) we won't burn out seals or over stress parts?

 

 

 

 

Personally .. I would sell them all. Nice collector items I would imagine ( for someone ) …  but notoriously crummy from a functional point of view .. on many fronts.

 


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Albino
(@albino)
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 6
May 28, 2020 08:04:02  

I had crow mag and eliminator he system .22 fac. and are the same.

I disasseblyed crow and elim,they have the same unit power gas ram ,are the same the internal parts ( brass block,dummy,ram,inertia etc) and the same  oring sizes for piston and gas ram parts ( total 8 orings) .

The difference is stock only.

I buyed crow mag and now have the eliminator only.

Have 3 weihrauch hw 90 theoben ( 177/22/25) marked but are very very different from crow/elim.

I don' t know because Beeman in the blue book said this but it isn't.

 


Jim Bentley thanked
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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
May 28, 2020 08:40:32  
Posted by: @talldog
Posted by: @sonnysan

For many years I thought the Crow Magnum was just an Eliminator with a different stock.  After looking through the Blue Book 12th edition I see some discrepancies:

1.  Crow Magnum velocities are higher compared to the eliminator.

2.  Theoben Eliminator section says the eliminator model incorporated an improved barrel design featuring pronounced rifling for higher velocity pellets.

** Sold all my crow magnums, so I cannot make a visual comparison now**

Claim #2 doesn't make sense to me since the Crow magnum is more powerful on paper. 

Eliminator specs - from blue book 12th edition:

.177 1100 fps, .22 900 fps

Crow Magnum specs:

.20 1060 fps, .22 1035 fps, .25 815 fps.

Another question is the type of pellets used go generate these numbers.  According to Beeman's literature, they were using Beeman Laser pellets to establish power specs for their guns.

If that is the case, how do we know what is a safe power range when these guns need to be rebuilt?

Example:  Eliminator

.22 (13.36) laser pellet fired at 900 fps:  24.04 ft. lbs.

.22 (21.14) kodiak pellet fired at 900 fps: 38.03 ft. lbs.

I recently replaced the Schrader valve in a Beeman RX-1.   Average chrony fps is 1007 with Kodiak match pellet:  23.99 ft. lbs.  Gun is incredibly accurate at this pressure.

RX-1 specs according to Blue book:

.177 1125

.177 (7.1gr) Beeman laser at 1125 is 19.96 ft. lbs.

.177 (10.65) Beeman Kodiak at 1125 is 29.94 ft. lbs.

So if we stay within the minimum and maximum specs (and the gun is accurate) we won't burn out seals or over stress parts?

 

 

 

 

Personally .. I would sell them all. Nice collector items I would imagine ( for someone ) …  but notoriously crummy from a functional point of view .. on many fronts.

 

The resale value of these guns show that there is in fact a tremendous interest in them.

 


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Talldog
(@talldog)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 43
June 1, 2020 19:25:35  
Posted by: @jim-bentley
Posted by: @talldog
Posted by: @sonnysan

For many years I thought the Crow Magnum was just an Eliminator with a different stock.  After looking through the Blue Book 12th edition I see some discrepancies:

1.  Crow Magnum velocities are higher compared to the eliminator.

2.  Theoben Eliminator section says the eliminator model incorporated an improved barrel design featuring pronounced rifling for higher velocity pellets.

** Sold all my crow magnums, so I cannot make a visual comparison now**

Claim #2 doesn't make sense to me since the Crow magnum is more powerful on paper. 

Eliminator specs - from blue book 12th edition:

.177 1100 fps, .22 900 fps

Crow Magnum specs:

.20 1060 fps, .22 1035 fps, .25 815 fps.

Another question is the type of pellets used go generate these numbers.  According to Beeman's literature, they were using Beeman Laser pellets to establish power specs for their guns.

If that is the case, how do we know what is a safe power range when these guns need to be rebuilt?

Example:  Eliminator

.22 (13.36) laser pellet fired at 900 fps:  24.04 ft. lbs.

.22 (21.14) kodiak pellet fired at 900 fps: 38.03 ft. lbs.

I recently replaced the Schrader valve in a Beeman RX-1.   Average chrony fps is 1007 with Kodiak match pellet:  23.99 ft. lbs.  Gun is incredibly accurate at this pressure.

RX-1 specs according to Blue book:

.177 1125

.177 (7.1gr) Beeman laser at 1125 is 19.96 ft. lbs.

.177 (10.65) Beeman Kodiak at 1125 is 29.94 ft. lbs.

So if we stay within the minimum and maximum specs (and the gun is accurate) we won't burn out seals or over stress parts?

 

 

 

 

Personally .. I would sell them all. Nice collector items I would imagine ( for someone ) …  but notoriously crummy from a functional point of view .. on many fronts.

 

The resale value of these guns show that there is in fact a tremendous interest in them.

 

Yes .. I suppose that could be true. But they were never any good from a functional point of view. Pretty bad actually.

 


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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
June 3, 2020 16:45:58  
Posted by: @talldog
Posted by: @jim-bentley
Posted by: @talldog
Posted by: @sonnysan

For many years I thought the Crow Magnum was just an Eliminator with a different stock.  After looking through the Blue Book 12th edition I see some discrepancies:

1.  Crow Magnum velocities are higher compared to the eliminator.

2.  Theoben Eliminator section says the eliminator model incorporated an improved barrel design featuring pronounced rifling for higher velocity pellets.

** Sold all my crow magnums, so I cannot make a visual comparison now**

Claim #2 doesn't make sense to me since the Crow magnum is more powerful on paper. 

Eliminator specs - from blue book 12th edition:

.177 1100 fps, .22 900 fps

Crow Magnum specs:

.20 1060 fps, .22 1035 fps, .25 815 fps.

Another question is the type of pellets used go generate these numbers.  According to Beeman's literature, they were using Beeman Laser pellets to establish power specs for their guns.

If that is the case, how do we know what is a safe power range when these guns need to be rebuilt?

Example:  Eliminator

.22 (13.36) laser pellet fired at 900 fps:  24.04 ft. lbs.

.22 (21.14) kodiak pellet fired at 900 fps: 38.03 ft. lbs.

I recently replaced the Schrader valve in a Beeman RX-1.   Average chrony fps is 1007 with Kodiak match pellet:  23.99 ft. lbs.  Gun is incredibly accurate at this pressure.

RX-1 specs according to Blue book:

.177 1125

.177 (7.1gr) Beeman laser at 1125 is 19.96 ft. lbs.

.177 (10.65) Beeman Kodiak at 1125 is 29.94 ft. lbs.

So if we stay within the minimum and maximum specs (and the gun is accurate) we won't burn out seals or over stress parts?

 

 

 

 

Personally .. I would sell them all. Nice collector items I would imagine ( for someone ) …  but notoriously crummy from a functional point of view .. on many fronts.

 

The resale value of these guns show that there is in fact a tremendous interest in them.

 

Yes .. I suppose that could be true. But they were never any good from a functional point of view. Pretty bad actually.

How many of the Theoben gas ram guns have you owned to develop this opinion?

 


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Talldog
(@talldog)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 43
June 4, 2020 17:24:01  

@jim-bentley I've had one .. but one was enough. I had a .20 cal Eliminator and (IMO) all in all it was a poor example of a high end airgun. It had a nice Hedyua stock and nice bluing, but that was it. The trigger was crap .. an old Webley unit pressed into service by Theoben. Cocking was ridiculously hard, firing behaviour (even at 20 fpe ) was terrible and it had a tendancy to elongate the receiver hole for the press in stud that held the end cap, and the whole thing together. Accuracy was so-so because the thing had a sharp and unpleasant firing behaviour. The design was suspect as it required around 70 BAR to make velocity spec. The HW90 in comparison operated on about 20 BAR, but even it was a heavy behemoth of a gun (had one of those too, also disappointing). The Eliminator gained its rep on high velocity and the fact it used a gas ram, a novel idea back then. I certainly do not dispute that it has collector value for some, but to intimate that it was some sort of advanced springer/gas ram with superior qualities absolutely escapes me. I never tried any of the lower powered Theoben gas rams, like say the Fenman, but I would imagine they were much more "civil", especially in 12 fpe form. Theoben's gas rams in general had great build quality, great bluing, nice stocks, and all around nice aesthetics .. but really paled in comparison to other more conventional springers. Again .. just my own opinion.  


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Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 180
June 4, 2020 18:40:16  

@talldog

I had a Chevy one time that was the nicest looking car, but it was plagued with mechanical issues. I've owned a dozen other Chevy's that were as perfect as you could ask for. Basing such a strong opinion on such a small sampling is not very scientific. I've owned over 60 airguns, mostly German manufactured, and some of them had issues as well. My first Eliminator did not have a good trigger, even Dave Slade could not make it right. The next 5 that I owned were wonderful. I've yet to get a bad RX/HW90 and I'm on my 6th one now. I've yet to own a spring gun that offers the power and the smooth shot cycle of a gas ram, and I own several that have been tuned by the guys that know what they are doing. None of them compare to a "good" Theoben.

But as the say, "there is a seat for every  butt" so these guns are obviously not for you.


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