Am I alone in my deep love and appreciation of msp guns? What a time I had this afternoon playing with my old daisy powerline 822[also known as the powerline 22sg]..accurate and easy to pump..popping small targets at close to 20 yards off hand, ? So.. Once again.. Am I alone?
I take my old Benji 317 & 312 out occasionally and also my personal favorite my old Sheridan Blue Streak with a forward mounted (scout style) scope. Makes it easier pumping without the scope in the way. This one has the adjustable pump rod and cronies with eight pumps 735 FPS with JSB 13.7 grain pellets with no residual air and is a tack driver. I use my shrouded PCP's mostly for hunting and it is amazing how much noise these old pumpers make.
I have 3 Crosman pump pistols (PC77 and 1377RC and a resurrected Crosman 130 ) 2 rifled 760's and a Sears/Crosman 1st variant 1400
I have a Daisy 35 just converted to a rifled barrel.
a small assortment of springers and a couple of CO2, and a SSP pistol
Yeah, I like my pumpers
Well, I’ll risk being the one dissenting voice. I want to like MSPs but after several tries, I just can’t. I don’t mind investing an effort into pumping, but I’d rather do it with a hand pump into a PCP. For example, I made a bottled 2240 carbine that gets 200 shots on a fill (14fpe in .177). I can use the hand pump to fill it the night before and then I can sit down with it and empty half a tin of pellets in a completely relaxing and enjoyable session.
Even if the investment in effort were equal, I would still prefer the PCP because all that pumping of an MSP detracts from the enjoyment of shootings. However the effort is nowhere near equal. Dump valves are terribly inefficient by comparison. Making an MSP into an ACP is the only reasonable compromise in my opinion, but seldom will the consistency and accuracy match that of a PCP.
I have tried to like them but, no, they are not for me. Maybe it's because I never had a BB gun as a kid. I grew up on rimfires. I am trying to hang onto one rocker Sheridan because every time I sell my last MSP I land up buying another. I never shoot it and don't enjoy the clack clack of pumping even if it isn't hard but I prefer springers, gas, or PCPs.
David Enoch
James, give the JSB 13.7 grains a try. I've shots pumpers of all calibers and brands for nearly 60 years. I've always loved the old 'Dans but was never satisfied with the accuracy of the Sheridan pellets. I tried nearly every pellet I could find in the .20/5mm including the (but now gone) Beeman silver jets or stings. When Crosman started making the premiers (also now sadly gone) in the .20/5mm they were super. Now thankfully the JSB shoots as good or better than any of the other pellets I've ever tried, from my oldest (first variant blue streak, and also my favorite) to the newer ones made by Crosman. They fit the bore of all mine. I like the .20/5mm but sadly they never caught on and pellets are getting harder and harder to find. I order them by the sleeve. Sure hope JSB continues to make them.
I have tried to like them but, no, they are not for me. Maybe it's because I never had a BB gun as a kid. I grew up on rimfires. I am trying to hang onto one rocker Sheridan because every time I sell my last MSP I land up buying another. I never shoot it and don't enjoy the clack clack of pumping even if it isn't hard but I prefer springers, gas, or PCPs.
David Enoch
Wow, let me know if it comes up for grabs! LOL
Just kidding. I have a Crosman 1400 and love it. Adjustable power,depending on how many pumps.
1. Springers
2. MSP's
3. Springers
4. PCP
Never taken one hunting but there's something about shooting and tinkering with them that runs deep within me. I'm even in the process of putting a Discovery barrel into a Crosman 2100B and adding a flat top setup, along with the probe I modified to actually seal the breech of the barrel for what will eventually be a "sleeper" rifle. That and trying to figure a way to mount a steel breech and Crosman 1701 grip on the pump tube for a separate build, basically a 1322 with more swept volume per pump.
Their inefficiency has never been an issue because aside from plinking I like to grab them for birds or chipmunks in the yard so pumping sometimes to 15 pumps to get off one shot is really no big deal. My two PCP's are hard hitters so those really only come out to hunt when I don't want to use a spring gun or for plinking over 50 yards.
I had an outstanding Crosman 1325 customized and modified with parts from all over the world (US, NZ, UK). I gave it to my car mechanic as a gift to help with pest control and although he is a great guy and takes phenomenal care of us, I knew the second I handed it over to him I'd regret it and wish I kept it. Close to 600 fps with .25 20.06 grain pellets and as accurate as any pumper I've ever held.
Well I’ve become a mostly-old-springer guy in my old age, but my first real airgun was the Benjy 347 that Santa brought in 1968. I loved it passionately as a teenager, must have put 50,000 pellets through it, and it still works perfectly. Also picked up a ‘66 Silver Streak a few years ago.
How can you not love these rifles, LOL...!? Slim, light, accurate, variable power, recoilless, good sights and triggers, self-contained, and obviously they last forever. MSP’s are still what I recommend to friends looking for a first and/or all-round air rifle.
I probably own more MSP's than I do springers. Sharp Ace, several Benjamins of various models, three Sheridans(not including the F models) a Dragonfly...probably something I'm forgetting. A few of those guns are ACPs, and that does drastically improve the effort/shot ratio, at a consistency level comparable to the best regulated PCP's (single digit fps variation over however long a string you want, given good pellets)
Most of my pcp's will beat the ACPs on pumps per ft/lb, but some wont match them on pumps per shot (3-4). When I have to get serious about reducing the collection, one of the Sheridans will be among the last to go.
I primarily shoot springers, but I take some quality time with my pumpers once in a while.
I enjoyed this afternoon plinking in the woods with a hold down Blue Streak. Made some pretty good shots with the factory irons- nicked a puff ball mushroom from 50 paces leaned against a tree (took me two shots), then walked up and blasted it squarely from 23 paces offhand- poof!
I agree that the 22SG is a cool little pumper. Easy to pump, lightweight, good accuracy, easy to scope. Removing the flat spring and stoning the sear does wonders for the trigger.
Always have to have one, (or two, or 3.) I had a '57 Sheridan with a Williams peep for years. Sold it, stupidly, and soon replaced it with a Benji 397. For some unknown reason, I sold that one too. Then I went down the Crosman road, with a highly modified 1389 Backpacker. My current favorite is the Dragonfly with a Williams peep. Also have a bone-stock Crosman M417, and a Daisy 880 with 5899 target sight. (Don't knock it 'til you've tried it!)
I'm mostly a spring gun guy, but I love my pump guns. I remember one day-long shoot up on the mountain at my buddy's place. I got there early, and the morning was cool. We both shot pump guns until the day warmed up.
I also think a pump gun is the perfect first gun for a youngster, because it requires more effort for each shot, and teaches patience.
I will always have at least one MSP. I like all powerplants, but have never owned a PCP. Shot plenty, but never took the plunge. Nothing wrong with them, just not my cup of tea.
I like them, but in my case it's probably mostly due to nostalgia having been exposed to them at an early age when shooting (almost anything including sling shots) was one of the most fun things a kid could do.
I grew up loving my cousin's Crosman/Sears Ted Williams .22 MSP rifle with wooden stock and a guy from school's tootsie roll Benjamin rifle, also wooden. I never managed to buy either of those but finally landed a Crosman 760 as a teen back when their barrels were still rifled. I had a good time with that one, with the rifling producing better accuracy with pellets than the 760's that were made later without a twist in the bore. I also wound up with a more powerful Crosman (forget the model number) in .177 and a Crosman 2200 in .22 in later years, both with a plastic stock (wooden stocks on MSP's were harder to find except for the more-expensive Benjamin and Sheridan offerings).
Magnum springers are often more efficient as far as total cocking effort to velocity goes, but the very-thing that some object to about an MSP rifle or pistol, including me sometimes--is the fact that it takes a lot of pumping to get maximum velocity. That also offers you a nice option: it means you can vary the power of an MSP simply by varying the number of times you pump it up. So, if you have lots of space or at least a good backstop or if you want to hunt, you can max it out. But, if space is limited or you only want to plink, you can just put in a few strokes and still have fun. That's all with the same rifle or pistol. With a springer, you have to pull out a completely different air gun to vary the power.
I don't have an MSP rifle right now but it's on my wish list.
Ever since I did to my 392 what crosman couldn't take time to, and my 1322 modded to the max , I remembered how much love I had for pumpers. Now there needs to be built more on board pump pcps more affordable than the fx independence (Nova freedom comes to mind), it's a relatively untapped market with a lot of potential for both profit and innovation
I'm wishing for a Nova Freedom bad! Want to sell my tuned Laser R1 & get a new old stock T01 52 .22 for $299.00 @ AOA & now they're carrying the Freedom for around $375.00. yes, I want that Freedom PCP/MSP hybrid in .177. It doesn't have to go directly to JIPA to shoot with no twang! Heck yes I have live for them but my wallet hates all things fun. I REALLY wish The Webley Paradigm had made it to USA in FAC production.
I have tried to like them but, no, they are not for me. Maybe it's because I never had a BB gun as a kid. I grew up on rimfires. I am trying to hang onto one rocker Sheridan because every time I sell my last MSP I land up buying another. I never shoot it and don't enjoy the clack clack of pumping even if it isn't hard but I prefer springers, gas, or PCPs.
David Enoch
Add felt padding David. That clack goes away.
Thank you all of you for replying and reading,,, This afternoon I was shooting my Daisy 990 on co2 mode and was thrilled at its accuracy ,waiting 3 seconds between shots, I was able to hit the almost 20 yard squirrel over and over with open sights. .OK . OK. That kill zone is huge compared to the groups you shoot regularly, ?... I must be lucky, my Daisy 822,now defunct 880*some parts still live inside the 822?*,and this 990 are really accurate and seldom talk about low priced airguns... I mean the Daisy brand overall...
I think Crosman has the ability to manufacture a great MSP rifle. There's a lot of interest. Revive an old model using modern manufacturing. Offer a full size stock and precision barrel with integral moderator. The versatility of the MSP alone would help it sell. Make it an heirloom quality gun and I think pride of ownership becomes a factor. Bring back the Supergrade in a thumbhole stock and I would buy one.
I think Crosman has the ability to manufacture a great MSP rifle. There's a lot of interest. Revive an old model using modern manufacturing. Offer a full size stock and precision barrel with integral moderator. The versatility of the MSP alone would help it sell. Make it an heirloom quality gun and I think pride of ownership becomes a factor. Bring back the Supergrade in a thumbhole stock and I would buy one.
I agree, but sadly disagree. The realities of today's market would make such a gun a failure in the boardroom before it ever made it to the factory. I too would buy one, and probably a couple hundred or so like-minded purists. But if it can't move off the Walmart shelf, it'll never see the light of day. Sadly, those of us who appreciate and would be willing to pay for a well-engineered air rifle are not a market-driving force.
I'm pretty happy with my Dragonfly, and was actually somewhat thrilled by the idea that a current manufacturer would market a new take on an old technology, at an affordable price. It's a decent gun out of the box, and a few simple mods that anyone can do made it a great gun. Granted, it doesn't have that lifetime feel of a '60s Sheridan, but then as they say, those were different times.
The only one I really miss....even though it'snot the most popular one....if a Crosman 101. Can't really call it "dirt simple" or even safe enough for today's market place, but the kind of "steam punk" look of it (and it's a lot smaller/handier that it looks) made if a favorite.
I love my 392PA everytime I get it out and shoot it again. And tinkering with 1377's got me "back" into airguns again just like I loved them in my youth. I remember the first squirrel I shot with my buddy's Crosman 760. Back when we were just kids, 500 or so FPS was like toting a deer hunting rifle to us! I truly believe that hype and marketing have driven airgun to be more than what they were originally designed for. I have many PCP's and springers, both spring and gas-ram. But I always go back and grab one of my pumpers to put a smile back on my face. 😉
I mean all joking aside. Aren't we all just a big bunch of overgrown kids? 🙂 🙂 🙂
Thanks
Ray
My first airgun was a Daisy 880 I got for Christmas in 1982? 1983? My cousin got the 881 the same year. We lived with those guns, called them "the finest airguns on the market". We were 13.
A couple of years later I bought a 1377 because an uncle had one and my dad used to tell me of shooting "feats" he performed with it.
Soon after that my cousin got an RWS 34 and the world changed. Steel and wood. Power. Recoil. I was hooked but couldn't afford my own springer until I got into the Navy, right out of highschool. An R1 in .177.
Unfortunately all of those guns are gone today. My love of airguns is still with me and I own two springers but I have no use for the pumps. When I first got that performance and power out of my cousins RWS I never looked back at wasted time pumping and clacking. We used to race each other, trying to pump and load our rifles faster than the other so one could get a shot off before the other. We'd set up spent shotgun shells at 27 yards then race to see who could knock it off first.
Today he still owns an RX2 and me with my R1 and R9. There is no nostalgia drawing either of us back into the pump game.
I also don't have a real need for an MSP. If I bought one it would be for the nostalgia. I understand there has to be a market for a new MSP but seeing old 50 year old Sheridans selling for $250+ in auctions and the FX Independence doing well might be a sign interest in a quality MSP is growing.
As for me, even after spending years shooting 10 meter competition with a SSP I prefer springers in the 700-800 fps range for their durability in field conditions and calmer firing cycle. If a quality MSP that could reach 700 fps with 1-3 pumps was available at an affordable price I'd consider it for FT. Maybe Crosman or another manufacturer could put out a survey.
I also don't have a real need for an MSP. If I bought one it would be for the nostalgia. I understand there has to be a market for a new MSP but seeing old 50 year old Sheridans selling for $250+ in auctions and the FX Independence doing well might be a sign interest in a quality MSP is growing.
As for me, even after spending years shooting 10 meter competition with a SSP I prefer springers in the 700-800 fps range for their durability in field conditions and calmer firing cycle. If a quality MSP that could reach 700 fps with 1-3 pumps was available at an affordable price I'd consider it for FT. Maybe Crosman or another manufacturer could put out a survey.
How about 675 on 3 pumps, 740 on 4, for $180. Take a look at my last post on Snowpeak airguns.
I'm in the process of making a new link for my Daystate Sportsman. The original link is made from a polymer, cast around a threaded steel insert. The polymer can compress, and cracks form over time. I could see a crack in mine, and when I got it apart there were three longitudinal cracks. I machined the new link from 6061 aluminum. The thread on the pump rod is metric, but happened to be so close to 20 tpi. that worked perfect, I ground a tiny threading tool and single pointed the thread inside a .265 diameter hole, .6 deep. I should have it finished up today.
Now that sounds like a plan Scott? I'm sure you will let me try out that beautiful SG of yours. Hopefully sooner than later!!
Do you still have the Sharp, Crossman 1400 and your other Sheridan? I'd love to see a post of them!
Yes John, I do still have my custom crosman 1400, and restored Sharp Innova Deluxe.
I tried to post pictures of them, but couldn't get it to work. I'll try again later.
I grew up on Sheridans. When I had the chance to get a springer what I really wanted was a .20 R9. The way I saw it, you had everything the Sheridans had on a single stroke. I had one too. Russ Best tuned one for me and the more I shot it the better I liked it. But it fell, being leaned where it shouldn't have been, and I sold it to a nice fellow in Cali many years later. The marring of my own negligence on that rifle was too hard to look at. But a PW ADV tuned R11 and JM tuned 124 more than make up for it.
I still enjoy an occasional squirrel hunt with a particular Silver Streak. It might be more work, but it's nostalgic and that's okay.
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