AS most older Co2 fans, from the 50's, 60's and 70's Crosman brings a found memory to this heart of mine. I have been dusting off some of the old gas hogs form that period and doing some math VS gain. So consider yourself In the mindset of rebuilding of a old classic vs new technical in building a gun that will do things no other gun will do coinciding Cost VS Parts VS Ease to work on. Also to test the waters I just pulled the trigger on one of Pyramid Airs Trail Scout in .22, could not pass on the price.
So the meat of the question considers the build quality vs Parts availability VS the loss of the old hands who could work on these blindfolded Vs custom parts availability for new Co2 technical knowledge. With all turning knowledge learned and invented in the past 20 years on just the 2200 series Crosmans and then the QB 22 line, just wondering where this could go?
Just a wild though from an old pellet head who has inhaled a little to much lead dust over the years.
1 caveat the main goal of this would be a gun that offed the most bang for the buck, the most fun per pellet send down rang, the easiest to own and use vs other models available.
This is also only for Co2 guns.
tim
HAven't tested the waters with the Diana version,but it does seem like the parts situation is getting better. Do keep an old 1 12gr.popping version,just never had the urge to try a 3-popper.
REeally do like the QB,are still a lot of parts,but it doesn't seem as prevelant as it once was....generally, you can still find most of what you want with a QB from more than one soruce (excpetions being the tank block for a QB79 or the bulk fill adaptor they use to make).
Crosman is alreasy easy to find parts for...and the 2240/2260 systems are about as 12gram simple as it gets...but like a lot of Crosmans, the QC is a little shady.
Flying dragons XC 60 has had a really attentive supplier....can'tsay the parts supply is abundant,but have been good rifles for me. Better to pay for the tune level you want and just order it than DIY.
Umarex/Hammerli 850 M (now the Mk II) is on the expensive end of co2 rifles,and I honestly do not like working on the internals....but two have been excellent co2 rifles for me on the low end of the power scale. Really didn't care for them when jacked up in co2 power or converted to HPA. 12gr. conversion tube is a bit pricy (when you can find one) but it'show I run it.
Fusion II...the more I read of the MKII,the less I like. Pretty much dumped the Fusion 1 as being a good-today-crap-tomorrow rifle...fussed with it for 18 months....gave up.
Like so I many of the 60 + year olds that were weaned on Co2, I'm still it's greatest fan.
I had a V1 Fusion and it was accurate with stable consistency. What I hated was the o-rings blowing/swelling up after every change. Gone.
I still have the Crosman 114 that I learned to shoot on over 50 years ago. It still gets shot from time to time, but has really taken a backseat to today's more accurate rifles, namely my 22xx's. The 22xx models have so many aftermarket parts to choose from. They can be built to your liking. Heck, a 150 bucks buys you a Custom Shop carbine with a Lother Walther barrel that hang with the big boys on accuracy out to 25 yards. Can't beat that for the money! Plus you have an easy load source of power with readily available 12 gram carts. I've nodded maybe 50-75 of these over the years.
One other Co2 rifle that I came to own in the past year is the Hammerli 850 v1 in .22. I also use the 12 gram adapter as a main filling source. I almost sold this one, had a change of heart and decided to give it a real chance for what I bought it for in the first place... Pesting. And it has more than filled that role for me. Rabbits/squirrels out to 40 yards and armidillos out to 20 yards seem no match. While I have not found a pellet that makes this rifle enjoyable to sit down and shoot for hole in hole paper targets, it is half dollar sized deadly on the varmints I need to keep in check around here. It has earned my devotion.
There are not many pistols and rifles that I have owned over the years where I didn't try to use Co2 as a fill source. Results have varried as you can imagine. The ones that come to mind first are the M-rod and Disco. Both I found were better suited to running with hpa. That's just me and might be my lack of going the full distance on the tunes.
Two Co2 rifles that I have to mention. The Avanti 887 and the old Crosman Challenger 2000. I enjoyed the heck out of both of them. I give the 887 the nod in accuracy, but it was pretty close. Hands down the 2000 was a simple to use single 12 gram cart rifle. I loved both. I also had the pcp version of the Challenger. It did run on Co2 also. As I remember, pretty well. But I also remember thinking that I kind of liked 12 gram version better?
The AF Edge was horrible on Co2- but amazing on hpa. I never went inside to adjust porting so it was not a real tune in the sense. One of the most accurate 10m rifles I have owned and priced very fairly imho. High shot count kept me spending money on pellets as it was a joy to shoot that one ?
So there you have my simplistic take. Your results are sure to vary...
Rich
Flying dragons XC 60 ... have been good rifles for me.
This has been true for myself also. Excellent round count off bulk CO2, only $99-ish secondhand.
I've handed a couple brand new shooters the X60C turned down so low you think you saw the pellet, these were folks you wouldn't expect to see shooting, nor were they excited to learn, so we needed a very gentle way to break them in.
Single shot enforces fire discipline and introduces the concept of manipulating projectiles into the chamber, something you wouldn't get if you started on a self loading pistol, for example.
Putt-TING! Plinking is truly a joy.
The appeal of 12 gram has never been clear to me, and it's bulk or nothing.
Could we put together a list of all the rifles which run well on bulk CO2?
Have been playing with my old bulk fill Crosmans for about a month now. The weather is warm enough for CO2, have cleared space in the freezes for 10 oz. tanks, and am having a ball. The 20 lb tank will need a refill soon.
Most 12 gm. Crosman airguns can be converted to bulk fill. Parts are available, as are copies of shop manuals. Aftermarket products are as plentiful as for a 10/22. This is a really easy niche to fall into. Fondling and shooting a 150 or CMP 160 is relaxing entertainment for yourself and a reminder to your friends of the fun to be had with greenhouse gasses. Lots of amazed smiles.
To each their own...I just don't care for bulk fill. If I'm dealing with tanks,valves,hoses...may as well be a PCP.
Do like paintball tankers(As if there are any QB89'sstillout there)....and have tethered the bulk fill co2's to a big donor tank when just playing around in one place. HAd a 10 pound tank strapped to the bottom of bench with a coil line leading up to the rifle rest for testing/static place shooting all day.
No hurt/no foul, no problem if you do like bulk filling.....the Crosamn Maxi/Disco can be adjusted to make a right fine bulk fill co2 if you've got the urge for one,but not the urge for an oldie (so does the Beeman Chief....does need some adjustments,but pretty welldoes what the old Crosman's did).
(So far...has been way easier to adjust a 2K PCPto run well as a bulk fill co2 than it is to adjust/mod a 3K PCP to run well as a bulk fill co2).
+Couple of my favorites I bought in 2008 when I was 66 (just starting in Airguns). Tuned 850 CO2 Magnum .177 with 9oz tank that shoots 810 fps and a Benjamin AS392T .22 (625 fps).
The 850 shoots lights out accurate mainly the LW barrel and JSB 8.4 gr combo.The 850 has never been worked on since 2008 (12 years now) but the Benjamin is "Oring" happy and very complex innards compared to the 850...I shoot JSB 13.4 gr from it when it doesn't leak...
Dang...Ill be 78 tomorrow !!
The 850 CO2 .177 is one on top of pic below:
Note temp strip...I normally shoot this rifle when ambient temps here reach 90 degrees +...has a heavier hammer spring and porting of valve etc..the other two are HPA guns ,177 & .22 Dominator.
Thank you !!
It is the same rifle except for the adjustable trigger and rail on forestock for accessories. If it still has the LW barrel,that would be the most important feature because they shoot lights out with that barrel.
I once shot a squirrel at 70 yards with a bone stock 850 CO2 .177. It was shooting at 750 fps.
I tried modding the triggers on mine but gave up after a while.I sure don't need another especially with the Avenger going for $299
Almost forgot: Should you get one be sure to get the 9OZ CO2 tank with adapter as that will give you about 300 shots. Then another tip is extra o-rings for the 8 shot mags...the o-rings last longer if you get extra mags.
Don't have an M2.....do have a dandied up version, running on 12gr.adapters. It does rate the best accuracy of all the co2 sporters (including the HW/LW re-barrels).
Did like the first one as a CO2 tanker....didn't like it as an HPA tanker....didn't like it as an AirSource co2 mostly because of the basic cost of 88gr. (we're paying for the GAS we use...88gr. is not a cost/benefit winner.)
Actually,refilling small paintball tanks isn't much different from bulk filling...just that spare tanks are portable/swappable.
Screw on a 9oz. co2 tank,pick up a tin of pellets,and you'll shoot the tin up before running out of gas....maybe a 250 count tin for one powered up... a 500 count tin for one power low.
M2 does have a threaded barrel, seems like a "better"barrel, some stock refinement....and it is like $300 buck-naked...so by the time you scope it,adapt it to paintball tanks,buy and fill the tanks,it's gets right-pricy.
I love co2. Mostly bulk fill.
I ended up buying 800 co2 cartridges. Not all at once but within a few months. If you buy enough they aren't expensive.
Since then I have purchased a MK1. 150.Mac1 ld and 4 replicas. And a 2260 mb and a 78D.
I already bulk fill a 112 and a Dave Gunter tuned 112
As well as my three Sumatras .177, .22 and .25
They work great for me at my ranges. I do have two tanks and a compressor but don't need hp power at my range.
MikeV
If you buy enough they aren't expensive.
The cheapest I've been able to locate is between 40 and 50 cents each.
Does that sound about right? Or can they be had for less?
Next dumb question...s
How does that Air Venturi Avenger look for CO2?
If you had a couple 9oz bottles, and a 20Lb to trans fill from, would you go Avenger, or 850?
Thanks!
These are just a bit cheaper than what you've found, but I think their quality is better than the Crosman, abd Daisy.
CO2 Cartridges - 12 Gram Unthreaded - Redrock Minnesota
As for the Avenger on co2 or the 850..I think I'd stay with the 850. The Avenger is reg'd so I'm not sure how that would effect co2 performance. If you want to try something on bulk fill I'd have a look at the Diana Trailscout and maybe swap the end plug for the PCP version.
CO2: IMO carts are fine but the 88 gram can be an issue. I have had leaks at threads on some 88 gram and found that using emery cloth to take sharp edge off threads and use plumbers tape cured the issue.
My AS392T like to drove me nuts until I figured out what was going on.
No,I would not use CO2 in the Avenger.
HAve never tried to run liquid co2 though a regulator....didn't see that working out real well.
When I was bulk filling, tried the simple non-regulated PCP's as bulk fill. Even though the makers specifically said not to,I'm use to fixing PCP's...took the risk.
(DISCLAIMER: it's against the factory recommendations, so whatever screw up happens, it's all your problem to cure.)
Can't sear that they wouldn't scewup after long co2 use,but seems like the only problem would be O-rings that aren't the right rating for co2 use (swelling). NOne of them showed any damage from co2 use short term (at least one got used that way for a couple of months).
Disco/Maxi still listed as "dual fuel" in some ads....it doesn't make a great co2 rifle without adjustment. The ones designed to run on 3K air need a good bit more adjustment (but none of them make the factory happy to find out you used co2).
Overall, the ones designed to run on low pressure air(2K or less) worked quite well as bulk fill co2 rifles with just a little striker spring adjusting. The 3K rifles were just smacking the bejesus out of the valve stem with a system designed to open it up under 3K pressure but only having like 1K co2 pressure.
As a long-time spring gun guy, I was a late comer to the world of gas, but I've embraced it. I bought 300 12g carts from Redrock, for about $0.34 each shipped to my door. Value!! Guns that run 'em are: QB2078/9B with a Rap4 2 cart adapter, Diana Chasers in both .177 and .22, MRodair Plinkster, Crosman 187 converted to dual cart, Hahn BB Super-repeater, Crosman 782, Crosman Z77, Dan Wesson 715 stainless snubbie, Walther PPKS, Gamo 430, Umarex XCP. I also have a Daisy 887, which runs off 2.5 oz CO2 cylinders, which also work in the QB. I have 3 cylinders, and they cost me $.50 ea to refill at the local sporting goods store.
The only bulk-fill gun I ever owned was a Shark .22 pump repeater. That gun was an absolute gas to shoot. I think the magazine held around 25 round balls, and by the time you emptied the magazine, it was ready for gas. Easiest refill ever; just screw a 20oz tank onto the end, unscrew, reload, and you're good to go for another rapid-fire session. I never should have sold that gun.
I love the gas for shooting in the basement, and the occasional out-the-window shot at a squirrel on the bird feeder.
From a Pistol Perspective (pistolera aficionado here)...
Pistols and CO2 are like ham and eggs. The energy density is hard to beat when you have a small chassis.
Action Guns:
Crosman 600
Crosman 451
Tunable Guns:
1750, 2250, 2550, and 3050
Stubbies in .177, .22 and .25
The tunable guns are all using CO2 cartridges. They either bulk fill the tube, or fill directly into a large valve. They all have power adjusters.
If you tune them to be about 5 - 10% off the peak, they will self-regulate over a wide range of temperatures (pressures). Not unlike a tuned PCP that can run a good shot string from 3000 - 2000 psi... e.g. at peak pressure your hammer strike is having some partial valve lock and at lower pressures it provides more lift/duration. That's not so hard and it's lots of fun! thanks-
Wyo
@wyo Holy 12gram Gasman. I will bet everyone will be so dazzled at that mind blowing group of pistols, as I was, not to notice all the world class glass on top of them. Not sure about post of the month but surly (Yes I said Surly) pictures of the month for sure.
P.S:Your 2300S is to die for.
THANK YOU.
tim
How about some performance specs from that 2300S compact. Velocity /number of full power shots @ ambient air temp, and size groups at say 10m.
+1 on what Jim said about Redrock co2 carts. They are really good carts and seem pretty clean too. Jim, I sold that Shark too. Kind of wish I still had it too. They come they go.
In the interest of total honesty, the Red Rock CO2 carts have VERY slightly larger OD than Crosman carts. In most all of my 12g guns, this has never been an issue. But there are a few where it has been difficult to extract an empty cart. Usually, a dry fire on a dead cart is sufficient. But in the rare case where even that doesn't work, I have glued a neodymium supermagnet to the end of a dowel, and it always pulls them out.
Red Rock carts are still the best value out there. Buy big and save big. I know it hurts a little to spend $100+ on gas, but when that big box shows up, you will feel like a rich man!
Remember them...although I’d not seek one out in the used market uuless it were cheap.
Do NOT remember any freak sized o-rings….could be locally sourced, although they used an extravagant number of 0-rings.
Hated the cost of AirSource (still do)...but it’s adaptable length wise, and a bulk fill skinny Daisy/Avanti co2 tube will work….or a refillable AirSource adapter...or even the Unarex 2X 12gr. adapter. Not enough drop to use a paintball tank.
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Can’t try them all, but Red Rock 12gr have worked in all the 12gtr. rifles so far….considering all that we are paying for and using is the GAS….the container is just along for a disposable ride….are per 12gr. great deal.
Not needing (or wanting) power for most back yard/indoor uses..ended up with a lot of 12gr. rifles.
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If you have a gun that has paintball threads, this is a great way to use 12G carts
http://www.aps-concept.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1337
I bought one from Rap4 a few years ago, and this seems to be the same thing.
12gr. is more about convenience for me…..being able to jam some 12gr. In one pocket, pellets in the other, and just wander around all day has it’s appeal.
(Co2 is the one air gun power plant that we cannot make at home....can pump/compressor air...MSP, SSP, Springers use atmospheric pressure "free" air...just co2 requires somone else to make the gas pressure.)
Big bulk buy of 12gr. (Red Rock) is pricey, but brings the cost down to about $.36 per 12gr.
Best buys in large numbers, 12gr. comes out to anything from $.88 and ounce to $1.20.
Best local 12gr. deal comes out to about $1.70-$1.90 per ounce.
88/90gr come out to about $2.80-$3.00 an ounce.
If you are lucky enough to have a paintball shop AND a rifle that accepts paintball tanks, would be closer to $.50-70 per once.
Bulk fill will beat that, but it’s a PIA...need big tanks and fill gear, and not sure how far you should spread that cost out to be included….but likely end up at about $.40 and ounce.
This is the Umarex adapter being made now...seems like the one specific to the 850/850M2 is hard to find. Does have the AirSource type threads, so it could plug into some rifles (they list some, but others might be able to use them).
Hi Steve,
I enjoy my bulk fill in my Pistol Model 111. Tom Gaylord once wrote an article in Airgun Letter about it's many merits. I still have all the Airgun Letter issues in a drawer. I was told Crosman made CO2 cylinders for the military in WW2 to fill inflatable life saving flotation devices. After the war they had so many 12oz bottles that they came up with the bulk fill format. Anyhow they are just super accurate, and like you said a "hoot to shoot". Hope you and yours are well.
By the way, one time I put a full 12 oz bottle on the floor of my car with the HEATER blowing on it. WOW! When it broke the burst disk I got light headed while driving. Had to stick my head out the window. Survived ok...hehe
Don Carkhuff
Darien,Il
Did blow a paintball tank bust disk in summer transport….that was always on my mind when hauling a 20 pound bulk tank back from a refill. I tended to borrow my brother’s pick up rather than my enclosed car.
Does get your attention right quick.
Sometimes it’s not pressure, just an old bust disk that had been flexed many many times in the empty to full cycle.
IF you are into bulk fill co2, can be a really cost effective (although more labor intensive) way to shoot co2. So far, all the 2K PCP’s (Disco/maxi/Chief) have done quite well with co2 once adjusted. Aren’t all recommended for co2 use, but they do work.
Poppet material seems the same (mostly Delrin), o-rings are the same, just not recommenced or adjusted right for co2 use. We do a lot of DIY things to PCP’s...and because we mod them, any liability is ours.
Personally, not that deep into the co2 hole. Big tanks, fittings, hoses….I'd deal with it to keep an old Crosman running.
Gotta love those old Crosmans and the Airgun Letter. Remember anxiously awaiting their arrival monthly for my airgun fix. Still reread them all every few years and find something that may not have been of interest the last time around but is then. How innocent we were!
If you haven't tried them, the bulk fill rifles - 113 and 114 - are as much fun as the pistols. My 114 (.22) is powerful and amazingly accurate. Sitting on the back gallery and shooting at rocks in the creek is an afternoon well-spent. S.