Super high mileage ...
 

Super high mileage Crosman 187  

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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 291
2019-08-23 17:17:31  

So I bought this little gun at Findlay last spring, and its Drop Dead gorgeous.  I've been shooting it in the basement for a while, and it never seems to run out of gas. So tonight I decided to do an actual pellet count.  When it got to 50 or so, I thought it was close  to petering out, so  I decided to strap on "My Little Combro."  Well, it was REMARKABLY consistent at 515-525 fps with RWS 7.0g Basics,  right up to shot number 86! Then it started to fall off.  85 perfectly consistent shots off a single CO2 cart.  Obviously someone before me has tuned this gun for high gas mileage.

Ideally. I'd like to get it up to the 600-650 area, but I'm hesitant to mess with what seems like a work of art.  85 perfectly consistent shots off a single 12g cart! AMAZING!  No after-market parts, no HDD, just a 50 year-old CO2 gun that shoots, time after time after time.


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Skillet
(@skillet)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 44
2019-08-23 19:46:43  

I’d be tempted to leave it be. That’s alot of inexpensive shooting, with only a single cart.

In my case, there’s always something more powerful on the rack if I need it.

Guessing that you’ve got other guns too...


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-08-23 20:19:31  

Even at 4.2 foot pounds (which about what 520fps/7gr. will give you) that's a lot of shots. I try for a goal of about 275-300 foot pounds out of a single 12gr.....you're making like 350-360 foot pounds.

Were a few versions of the Crosman 180/187...but either someone in the past adjusted it to that low speed (which is quite useful for basemenet paper-punching) or something radmonly changed to slow it to that level.

Have had a growing suspision that the old Cromans shot better than many of the reviws/tradtional wisdom. Pellets have gotten a lot better over all those years; the old rifles actually do quite well with the newer "good" pellets.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 263
2019-08-24 12:48:10  

Last I looked a 12g cart could be had for $0.50-ish in bulk.

That is less than $0.01 per shot, I wouldn't mess with it.

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


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Steve in NC
(@steve-in-nc)
Dealer
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 329
2019-08-24 15:43:20  
Posted by: @jiminpgh

...85 perfectly consistent shots off a single 12g cart! AMAZING!  No after-market parts, no HDD, just a 50 year-old CO2 gun that shoots, time after time after time.

There's no denying that 86 x 4.2 = 361fpe from 12gms of CO2 is excellent efficiency, even at only 520fps.   Full stop.  But "Super?"

Well, 361fpe is pretty far short of the "horse-power-second" = 550fpe/12gm efficiency that HDD equipped guns have achieved at significantly higher MVs.  E.g...

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yellow/110-shots-from-24gms-of-co2-12fpe-qb78-beats-horse-t168702.html#p1647570


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 291
2019-08-24 15:58:39  

So I scoped my little 187 just to see what it could do.  Not an altogether easy task.  I used the Air Venturi Ben/Sher intermount that Pyramyd sells, along with the lowest Weaver rings I could find, and a cheap Winchester 4X32AO scope.  It looks a little cobbled together, ( it is!) and the scope looks WAY too big, but its such a tiny gun.  To get the mounts on, I had to remove the bolt.  Then I found out the hole spacing on the rail didn't leave enough room for bolt operation and pellet loading, so I had to drill a new mounting hole in the rail.  But it works, and the mounts are rock solid on the little gun.

CR18701

CR18702
CR18701

 

This was more of an experiment than anything else.  Yes, you CAN scope a 180/187.  I'll shoot it like this for a while, but I'll probably take it back to irons at some point, because these little sausage guns are just about perfect the way they left the factory.  And, didn't I tell you it's a looker?!


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 291
2019-08-24 17:45:23  

And I just found the secret little power adjuster setscrew.  Cranked it all the way in and now she's shooting at 580, very consistently.  I guess the next step would be a new hammer spring.  But I'll miss that mileage!  At least I know how to get back there if I want to.


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Steve in NC
(@steve-in-nc)
Dealer
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 329
2019-08-24 19:18:23  
Posted by: @jiminpgh

And I just found the secret little power adjuster setscrew.  Cranked it all the way in and now she's shooting at 580, very consistently.  I guess the next step would be a new hammer spring.  But I'll miss that mileage!  At least I know how to get back there if I want to.

Interesting experiment, Jim.   Anybody care to place a bet regarding how 60fps = 12% more MV = 24% more ME will affect gas consumption and shot count?

12% fewer shots?

24%?

50%?

I pick door #3.


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 291
2019-08-24 20:31:30  

Hi Steve,

I'll run another full cart and do a shot count tomorrow.

You've got me curious.  Interesting little gun.  I like it a lot.


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Skillet
(@skillet)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 44
2019-08-24 20:54:24  

I’m guessing 40-50 shots @ that setting..

I have a 150 (similar innards) that will deliver 70 consistent shots @ 1/2 cock setting, I think it was averaging abt 340 in .22.

My 180 has no power adjustment (Higgins branded), and after shortening the hammer spring, will do 35-40 shots @ 580 w/ .22 Hobbies.

Your .177 should do more. Almost a black-art, tuning those Co2 guns. 

If you go into that striker assy, it’s a little dicey, there’s a blind E-ring securing the rod inside the hammer.

looking forward to seeing ur numbers!


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-08-25 01:46:57  

Not an expert on these guns,but know there were two generations (maybe 3 if you could some of the House Brands that were kind of crossovers between the 180 and 160).

(OK...young folks might not know house brands...big chains would market guns as under their logo..Sears....Western Auto...Montgomery Ward...the old big chain stores of decades ago. Sometimes they had specail features added,sometimes just the name stampings.)

First generation ones were pretty simple. THey'll have a cross bolt safety right though the middle of the stock,a cheap thin metal stamped trigger guard (which 8 out of 10 times got bent over the years).

Second generation (sometimes in the early to middle 1960's?)got the much more refined ajustable trigger system (the same design trigger that QB's still use) and a few other little changes.Those would be like the pretty one pictured above: cast trigger housing and trigger guard,lever safety ahead of the trigger.

Some had that little screw adjustment for the striker spring (which doesn't adjust a whole lot),some had a dual stage/dual sear striker,some had both,and some had neither.

It could be that yours is running only from the rear sear of a two sear striker (stuck on "low")..either through wear on the high power sear or becsue it can't cock far enough back to engage the high power sear.

So odd as it seems....try backing that little spring adjustment screw OUT, then see if it'spossible to cock the striker farther back than normal and engage that high power sear (if there is one).

Do keep an old Generation I in working condition, but never have scoped it. Surprising how small the little bugger really is. Had good memories of one way back when I was a kid, so bought this one used...and maybe someone hot-rodded it a little.

Didn't come with either a two setting striker or a spring adjuster but the old one from my youth had a dual power striker....so I cut a 2nd sear into the sear for the same lo/hi power choice I had back then.

 


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-08-25 10:51:30  

My picture-posting is kind of "iffy"from Photobucket...but I'll try for a Gen. I 180 picture.

 


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 291
2019-08-25 12:52:08  
Posted by: @steve-in-nc
Posted by: @jiminpgh

And I just found the secret little power adjuster setscrew.  Cranked it all the way in and now she's shooting at 580, very consistently.  I guess the next step would be a new hammer spring.  But I'll miss that mileage!  At least I know how to get back there if I want to.

Interesting experiment, Jim.   Anybody care to place a bet regarding how 60fps = 12% more MV = 24% more ME will affect gas consumption and shot count?

12% fewer shots?

24%?

50%?

I pick door #3.

Well, halfway between door #2 and door #3.  I got 59 shots that were very consistently around 585 fps with 7g RWS Basics.  There were a few (very few) anomalous shots on both ends, around 560 and 610, but I attribute those to pellet variations and/or misalignment on loading.  After shot 59, the velocity dropped roughly 10 fps per shot, so I knew I was off the self-regulating CO2 curve.  When it got down to 500 fps(+-) I dry-fired it to empty.  Not sure if this info is useful in any way, but once I hit 500, it took roughly 20 dry-fires to relieve all the pressure in the single-cart tube.  (Also, this was done in an air-conditioned basement at 74 degrees, WITHOUT any efforts one way or another to let the gun temperature stabilize.  Whatever time it took to cycle involved loading, cocking, resetting the Combro and registering the shot on the cell phone counter.  Maybe 30-45 seconds between shots.  After the first few shots, the gun remained noticeably  cool throughout.)

To Ribbonstone, this gun is fully functional on both low and high power cocking.  All of the numbers I've shared were taken on second-click high power.


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Steve in NC
(@steve-in-nc)
Dealer
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Posts: 329
2019-08-25 15:22:49  
Posted by: @jiminpgh...

Well, halfway between door #2 and door #3.  I got 59 shots that were very consistently around 585 fps with 7g RWS Basics. 

Not bad A-tall!


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-08-25 21:50:47  

Harder to judge Co2 efficiency (gas use being rated in WEIGHT rather than pressure)..but the standard I've held for an efficient use of gas has been in the past somthing near 260-300foot pounds per 12gr.

You're more like 320 foot pounds per 12gr. with that one...which is pretty darned great (even at the low speed/energy) for not working at getting it there.

Some one in the past modded my .;22 180 (as show above) to a more powerful version (thinking they changed the spring, trasnfer port) and I only get 17 good/useful vel. shots at high power (13.5 foot pounds) and 24shots at low power (11 foot pounds).

(evident that I didn't space the low power sear notch far enough away from the high power sear notch in this .22 rifle.)

Which does NOT make for a long shooting session for one 12gr. no matter what the power level,but does make for some open-iron sight hunting fun at close range.

I run out of open eye-sight at about 45-55 feet (this target at 50 feet):

Flickr

 

 

It's NOT that I need that much power in an 50 foot iron-sight rifle....just that I have no real urge to un-do what some one evidently worked hard at to do.

 

 


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DavidEnoch
(@davidenoch)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 259
2019-08-26 07:09:31  

Ron Robinson made a pistol out of a Crosman 187.  He also used a regulated HPA tank with it.  It was incredibly accurate.

David Enoch


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pistolero
(@pistolero)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 316
2019-08-26 17:31:30  

Per David's post above, attached below is a whole LONG chapter from Airgun Chronicles; said chapter titled The 180 Chronicles.

The chapter includes documentation of statements and facts many of you will find hard to believe. However, I'll amend a statement I often make, "The truth is fantastic enough for our purposes", to (in this particular case) read "The truths are more than INCREDIBLE enough for our purposes."  Enjoy.

"No brag; just fact."- Will Sonnett


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 291
2019-08-26 18:24:22  

Thanks for that Ron.  I am, and remain impressed by this little rifle.  I have no idea if anyone has messed with it in the past, but it appears to be all original.  It did develop a leak in the valve, so I had to take it apart.  I learned a lot.  A lesson in simplicity and elegant design.  I simply polished the valve sealing face with a pencil eraser and some white rouge, and all is right with the world.  The ancient brittle transfer port seal was replaced with a piece if 1/4" icemaker tubing.  Other than that, it is as I got it.

I contacted "He who must not be named" about a full professional tune, and he said he can typically get 187s up around 700 fps with 7.9 pellets.  BUT!  I kinda like it where it is.  585 and 60+- shots off a single cart, or back out the adjuster and get 85 shots at 515.  I have no need for speed, and as you have attested, the accuracy of these old Crosman .177 barrels is truly remarkable.

Think I'll stick where I'm at and enjoy the hell out of this little gem.


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pistolero
(@pistolero)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 316
2019-08-26 21:30:29  

Hi Jim,

When I saw your post it occurred to me that all my experience with 180/187 platforms relate to souping them up, rather than economy. So i didn't join the conversation until David brought up my name, then decided to just post that 180 chapter.

I was surprised by how many shots you coaxed from your 187.

Posted by: @jiminpgh

the accuracy of these old Crosman .177 barrels is truly remarkable.

Suffice to say I have shot a few five-shot groups at 50 yards with a 180 rifle and my 187 pistol conversion that measured less than .40" center-to-center, and could completely hide under a dime. Mind you, both those guns are around 12 foot-pounds.

Happy Shooting,

R

 

"No brag; just fact."- Will Sonnett


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Skillet
(@skillet)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 44
2019-08-26 21:32:54  

Interesting thread.

The 160 is oft regarded as Crosman’s finest Co2 rifle. If the 160 had never been created, the tiny 180 might well hold that title.


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-08-26 21:45:21  

Don't remember putting the 180 on a scale before. Wood and steel (other than o-rings/seals) so it can't be all that light...can it?

Yeah it can...gassed up with a new 12gr..... 3 pounds 12.5 ounces.

Well it can't really be all that short and handy...can it?

Yeah...compared to several other 12gr. running co2's....it really is small.

Flickr

Power has to suck right? After all, it runs on one 12gr.

Well...the amount of co2 is like the size of a car's gas tank...it's NOT a predictor of how fast it can run, just a predictor of how long it can run...and there is no reason a 180 can't shoot as fast as a dual 12gr. 160 (just shoot fewer shots).

That crsusty old 180 does NOT GET a lot of shots. Dual power (two sears on the striker). "Lo" ends up at 9.2 foot pounds and "hi" ends up at 11.7 foot pounds....which ain't mega power, but more than I rerally expected.

 

 


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Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 139
2019-08-27 21:43:13  

Crosman 457 or 459 mount will allow the scope to be mounted lower. The transfer port mod you mention is good for about 25 fps in .22 in those guns.

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


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