Springer velocity a...
 

Springer velocity and new piston seal  

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218bee
(@218bee)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 55
2018-10-22 13:39:38  

installed a brand new ARH piston seal and brand new 18 joule factory FWB spring in my FWB124.  With 8.4 JSB's, I can't get it to do better than 700-710 fps with these new parts.    Have to have almost 500 shots through it.    

Everything I read about these say they shoot much hotter in factory form.  The seal was tight but it slid right in. I used a few drops of Mobil1 oil and had a single puff of smoke on my first shot, after assembly. Rifle behaves beautifully otherwise, just cant get the velocity I'm after.  Could the ARH seal be too tight? How do you check? Breech seal is perfect with no leaks.

I want to keep this rifle all factory, in case it ever goes up for sale, so for now, not interested in aftermarket springs.


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 631
2018-10-22 14:47:47  

let me first state I shouldn't get involved but here what I found

the seal you used looks like the seal PA sells but knowing like the one Waffencenter Gotha sells

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_Feinwerkbau_Piston_Seal_Fits_FWB_124_Air_Rifle/3664

http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251483/483181.htm

https://www.waffencenter-gotha.de/shop/Ersatzteile/Luftdruckwaffen/HERSTELLER-MODELL/FEINWERKBAU/Feinwerkbau-124/%3EKolbenmanschette-Dichtung%3C-Feinwerkbau-124::4764.html

and I would think after doing business with Waffencenter they are get seals from the factory

so you have 3 components that would cause the low numbers, the spring, it's new should we'll throw that out maybe

the seal, well that could be it, the green to blue seal has a whole different look in the parachute area

and the lube but that could be the least of your problems

and you know all of this so my guess is the seal and this is from someone that has never seen a 124 in person

take care

mike

 

 

 

Mike


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218bee
(@218bee)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 55
2018-10-22 15:47:11  

Thanks very much, marflow...The ARH seal info states"Easily tweaked for power in tight guns".  Maybe this is the info I'm after.  Anyone ever "fit" a seal to a gun?  I saw a video of a fellow who literally sanded it down with sandpaper, but I would think you lose any precision tolerances if you were to do so.  


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 448
2018-10-22 17:46:06  
Posted by: 218bee

installed a brand new ARH piston seal and brand new 18 joule factory FWB spring in my FWB124.  With 8.4 JSB's, I can't get it to do better than 700-710 fps with these new parts.    Have to have almost 500 shots through it.    

Everything I read about these say they shoot much hotter in factory form.  The seal was tight but it slid right in. I used a few drops of Mobil1 oil and had a single puff of smoke on my first shot, after assembly. Rifle behaves beautifully otherwise, just cant get the velocity I'm after.  Could the ARH seal be too tight? How do you check? Breech seal is perfect with no leaks.

I want to keep this rifle all factory, in case it ever goes up for sale, so for now, not interested in aftermarket springs.

I thought we recently covered the velocity subject, but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.  You said that everything you read says the 124 shoots much hotter  in all factory form.  Where did you read that?  I don't think it was here, at least not recently.  In whatever thread it was, myself and some others have posted that you'd get more velocity with the right Maccari spring or kit than you would with the factory spring.  Less buzz, too. The ARH site itself says 790-800 fps. with a CPL is pretty common with at least one of the springs or kits sold there.  Your JSB's may shoot a little slower than that based on being heavier, but some of that depends on the individual gun.

Oh, yeah, here's that other thread:

https://airgunwarriors.com/airgun-talk/fwb-124-tune-question/

But it sounds like that won't suit you if you're determined to keep your 124 "all factory".  The seal should break in a little after a couple of weeks and some shooting.  But, having shot a lot of 124's in stock form, I don't think you're ever going to see that 790-800 fps velocity with a factory spring.  It's longer than the springs ARH sells, yes, but less powerful.

It's your rifle so you  should keep it the ways you want it.  But if curiosity ever gets the best of you. you might want to try going another route.

HTH.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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218bee
(@218bee)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 55
2018-10-22 20:31:30  

Thanks Ed...yeah that last velocity thread was more geared towards the spring, which I'm crystal clear on.   I was just concerned the seal was too tight, hence slowing velocity.  Sounds like you've done your fair share of tuning, so is there some guideline to properly fitting a seal? They cant all be "drop in" fit, can they?

again thanks for any help here.

 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 448
2018-10-23 00:37:33  
Posted by: 218bee

Thanks Ed...yeah that last velocity thread was more geared towards the spring, which I'm crystal clear on.   I was just concerned the seal was too tight, hence slowing velocity.  Sounds like you've done your fair share of tuning, so is there some guideline to properly fitting a seal? They cant all be "drop in" fit, can they?

again thanks for any help here.

Yes, I've done a lot of tuning, and by that I mean paid tuning for others.  I've done some stock repairs and refinishing, too.  I used to do a lot of that work, but I had to take time off due to some health issues.  The issues are totally- resolved and things remain rock-steady.  I'm tuning again.  I've already completed a few tunes, and another one will be finished by the end of the week.  

Note: I used to over-commit , accepting too-many air rifles at a time, and it led to excessive lead times.  Not anymore because I changed my work load approach.   Now I only accept one 'hands-on' air gun (present tense),  plus one more to work on when that first one is done.  No more until rifle # 1 is back on the way to its owner.  It works.  

I've tuned rifles and their triggers on most brands that are out there among spring guns.  I'm talking Beeman/HW, UK Webley, RWS/Diana, Air Arms, Giss system recoil-less, Walther, (and a few Turkish-made Winchesters and misc. Chinese rifles, but I've elected to stay away from them due to their idiosyncrasies).  Tunes were done at all different power levels.  

I have tuned quite a few of the FWB 124's with ARH springs and kits.  I know how to get smooth power out of them.  I also  know how to find the very-nice, crisp. two-stage trigger that is hiding inside.  If you break the OEM plastic trigger blade, you can buy a metal upgrade version from ARH..  

No,  not all  piston seals are a simple drop-in.  Learning to properly size/fit a piston seal is a crucial skill you'll need to learn if you're going to tune springers.  If you use your imagination you can probably come up with tools to help size the seals for assorted guns. That's what I did--made some jigs, etc..  Sandpaper is a totally-acceptable tool if you use it correctly--look at the profile of a new piston seal and see what the shape is telling you.  Try to keep the same profile.  There's another 'trick' I learned to speed up the process, but you'd have to see it to understand it.  But, as far as a guideline, it's like a lot of other mechanical work.  Be conservative when you're removing material.  You can always remove more, but once it's gone you can't go back.  The seal gets thrown in the trash.

If you're a DIY kind of guy when it comes to tuning, there are some nice videos on YouTube that will probably help you with some useful  tips.

A tidbit: Some of my best work and innovations have came to me by stopping what I was doing before I ruined something, and sleeping on it.  You will probably still ruin a spring or seal here and there.   But, you can keep that to a minimum if you back off and give your brain some time to relax and find a different way to look at things.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Airguntunes
(@scottblair)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 84
2018-10-23 07:19:36  
Posted by: 218bee

installed a brand new ARH piston seal and brand new 18 joule factory FWB spring in my FWB124.  With 8.4 JSB's, I can't get it to do better than 700-710 fps with these new parts.    Have to have almost 500 shots through it.    

Everything I read about these say they shoot much hotter in factory form.  The seal was tight but it slid right in. I used a few drops of Mobil1 oil and had a single puff of smoke on my first shot, after assembly. Rifle behaves beautifully otherwise, just cant get the velocity I'm after.  Could the ARH seal be too tight? How do you check? Breech seal is perfect with no leaks.

I want to keep this rifle all factory, in case it ever goes up for sale, so for now, not interested in aftermarket springs.

I've done many 124 & 127's and own both.

I install the Maccari seal, (that's the only seals I use, period), with a little moly lube around the seal and rear of piston. Then insert in compression tube, it should just stay put while holding tube vertical. You can push it down gently and it moves, but will stay put where ever you stop pushing gently.

If it doesn't pass this test, take it out, wipe all the lube off, then I turn it down one revolution on my bench disc sander, relube and test again. Like mentioned above, go very slow and easy, don't take off more than a couple thousandth's at a time.

Don't use motor oil!!!!

Contact me if you need help.

Good luck


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218bee
(@218bee)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 55
2018-10-23 09:04:12  

Thanks Ed & Scott.  This is the info I was after.  My seal is way too tight. The piston has to be really pushed hard to get it to slide in the tube.  Will try reducing the diameter on my lathe and some fine sandpaper.


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Airguntunes
(@scottblair)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 84
2018-10-23 10:50:19  

There ya go bee, that was your problem. You should be getting 760-790fps. Then it should get a little faster as the seal wears in. Let us know how you make out. Love those FWB sporters!!!!

  • Have fun

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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 448
2018-10-23 20:14:32  
Posted by: 218bee

Everything I read about these say they shoot much hotter in factory form...

I want to keep this rifle all factory, in case it ever goes up for sale, so for now, not interested in aftermarket springs.

218bee, I'd like to throw out one more item about this "all factory" topic.  It's based on something I read  for the first time on the original Yellow Forum.  In other words, I didn't come up with it, someone else did.  He was addressing the subject of keeping something 'all original' so as to be more desirable, and thus worth more.  It went something like this:

"If you wanted to buy a much-sought-after car from the 50's or 60's, would you want to make sure it had brake shoes that contained asbestos?  That's how the original shoes were made back then.  Asbestos-containing brake shoes aren't better".  Now I'll add one of my own:.  And, what about making sure the headlights were the old standard vacuum filament type, as opposed to modern day halogen headlights that enable you to see farther and thus drive more-safely?.

So too with the original  factory spring that FWB put in the 124 as I see it.  It was probably made of common piano wire.  OTOH, the current ARH springs are made of more-modern spring wire metal like chrome-silicon or chrome-vanadium that lasts longer.  And, as already said, they produce more power and fit the spring guide right so you don't get spring twang.

I said it once before so I guess I really need to give it a rest after this.  It's your gun and you should have it the way you want it.  But, if you were trying to sell me that FWB 124 of yours, I'd consider it as being worth more, not less, if you already upgraded the spring to one that's known to be a better part. 

I thought the guy who made that post some years back had an interesting point of view.  It's just something to think about at your leisure if you so choose.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Airguntunes
(@scottblair)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 84
2018-10-24 03:25:06  

Excellent point ekmeister.I couldn't agree more.

I personally always modify my AG's to be more pleasing to my eye, and more functional to my desires. I have had people tell me that I am lowering the value of the gun by doing so.

Funny, but I have always found that my modified guns sell for more money than the all original ones that I've seen listed.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that " a gun is worth what ever someone is willing to pay for it"

IMHO, a Maccari tuned gun will always be worth more to ME than original. But then again, I am not a true "collector" but more of a shooter.


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 448
2018-10-24 11:16:25  

Airguntunes,

Thanks for your input and acknowledgment. The time that's passed since this discussion began has allowed me to think of a few things that 218bee might NOT be saying that make good sense. I realized I may have missed them. 

It sounds like both you and I have done enough tuning work to not be afraid we are biting off more than we can chew by modifying the power plant of a 124.  But that's not true of everyone.  Doing something wrong could cause poorer performance, not better.  Then the value would decrease.  And, as I know myself, every time you take a mint air gun apart again, you run the risk of scratching the stock, the bluing, or both. That would also decrease the value.  It reminds me of the old saying, 'If it ain't broke don't fix it"  That might be a wise tack to take on this one. 

A pretty looking FWB 124 that is shooting well, if not at world record speed, is typically still an easy sell and gets a good price (he did change the piston seal, which is the real Achilles heel of the 124 as you know).  The new owner can always change the spring if he wants to. 

I did think of one other thing.  If it was me, I think I'd go ahead and buy an ARH Twister Spring now while it's in stock and put it somewhere for safe keeping.  It's a $25 part.  Then, if the time came that I wanted to upgrade I'd already have it.  Of, if I ever wanted to sell the rifle, I could tell the buyer, "Here's a spare spring if you ever need it".  That's just me.

And hopefully 218bee will forgive me for 'talking behind his back' like this!

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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