Spring gun hold sen...
 

Spring gun hold sensitivity?  

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doninva
(@doninva)
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Posts: 123
2018-09-04 13:11:25  

I had a 300s and you could shoot it like a pcp. I have several spring guns. They are all around 12 fpe and .177 caliber. All are hold sensitive. At what point do they shoot like a 300s or do they. Is it worth the effort of detuning till they aren't hold sensitive or is it even possible? Thanks, Don


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
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Posts: 278
2018-09-04 13:36:06  

Hold sensitivity is a myth.  And an excuse for not knowing how to shoot your gun.  Powder burners are hold sensitive as well.  Each gun is unique, and requires a certain technique.  I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's the truth.  It's also the truth that recoiling spring piston guns require MORE technique than just about anything, therefore more TRIGGER TIME to learn proper technique.  The common reasoning is to equate learning time with hold sensitivity.  If it takes a long time to learn how to make the gun perform, it's considered hold-sensitive.  I call hogwash.

Let the flames commence.


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boscoebrea
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Posts: 174
2018-09-04 13:46:29  

Well doggone I have to agree with Jim,no different than anything else in life;Patience helps all things as does practice,that is why some people name their guns...because they have developed a relationship with them,LOL.


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functor
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2018-09-04 14:25:50  

"Hold sensitivity is a myth.  And an excuse for not knowing how to shoot your gun.  Powder burners are hold sensitive as well.  Each gun is unique, and requires a certain technique.  I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's the truth.  It's also the truth that recoiling spring piston guns require MORE technique than just about anything, therefore more TRIGGER TIME to learn proper technique.  The common reasoning is to equate learning time with hold sensitivity.  If it takes a long time to learn how to make the gun perform, it's considered hold-sensitive.  I call hogwash."

I couldn't agree more! I would possibly have phrased it with less directness, but the content is spot on! PCPs are just as "hold sensitive", it's just the difference in POI is so small that we don't care/ notice unless we are looking for it. Springers, because of their operating design, simply throw the fact that we have been careless in our face. 


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ribbonstone
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Posts: 228
2018-09-04 16:03:27  

(fingers crossed)

Yeah..anyone can pick up a blister pack springer from WalMart and shoot tiny little goups no matter how they hold a springer.
(Fingers uncrossed)
Good you brought up the FWB 300 (or the RWS 75), as they are springers....and they are no more hold sensitive than PCP's of the same power level. Why? Becasue they are "recoiless" (OK..aren't in the strict Newtonian sense...but close enough for common use when talking about airguns).

Yep...really can learn to shoot a springer well by finding what hold it likes (and it doesn't have to be a tradtional hold or one that matches a different springer) and always using that hold.

THat's part of the "fun"of shooting recoiling springers...they basically use the human holding it as a "damper".


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DavidEnoch
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Posts: 246
2018-09-04 16:05:26  

I disagree with Jim, or maybe agree with him.

Jim, you say hold sensitivity is a myth and then say each guns wants to be help a certain way.  It seems what you are saying is that every gun is hold sensitive.  If that is what you are saying, I agree with you.  If you are saying that springers are not anymore hold sensitive than PCPs, I think you are wrong.

I think there is something to the to the artillery hold but not so much the hold as the repeatability it enables.  It is easier to repeat barely touching the gun that to repeat the exact amount of hold tension with each shot.  I think it is all about repeatability.   If you do not have luck with the artillery hold I suggest that you might not be holding the gun consistently for each shot.  Whatever hold gives you the most repeatability will be your most accurate hold, but I think the artillery hold gives you the most potential of a hand held airgun.

David Enoch


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doninva
(@doninva)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 123
2018-09-04 17:12:52  

Thanks for all the opinions. I guess the concenes is "l don't know how to shoot" I guess I'm lucky that when l shoot my Steyr LG110, Thomas field target or my RAW HM1000 that l'm able to shoot mostly pellet thru pellet hole at 30 yards off bags and my zero doesn't seem to change. My TX200 and LGU seem to shoot about 1" groups off bags and don't seem to hold zero from hour to hour or day to day. It is good to know it's all me. The springers shoot just like my pcps. Thsnks again everyone. Don


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functor
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2018-09-04 17:58:55  

Don, perhaps some of us didn't phrase our response in the right spirit and it came off as insulting. First I should like you to note that each of the guns you mentioned cost four to five times as much as some of the most expensive production spring airguns. I think you will find that you won't be able to shoot, say, a Benjamin Discovery quite so accurately. Does that mean you can't shoot? I don't think so. I have none of the guns you mentioned, but I have seen photos and they are all purpose built for target shooting and have adjustable stocks for starters. Take the same rifles and deliberately set your cheekpiece too low/ high, or the length of pull too short/ too long or "adjust" the trigger to its highest weight with a lot of second stage movement. You will not shoot them as accurately any more but not because you are a worse shot-- it's that it's not optimal to shoot any more. Now keep practicing with the heavy trigger with a rolling second stage, use a chin weld or adjust your head-- in a week or two your groups will become close to what you can shoot now, but you will have to be a lot more careful in shot release and adapt to the new settings. 

Springers are a bit like that. They have very long lock times relative to pcps and a double recoil. Combine the longer time the pellet is in the barrel with the forward recoil (which means it's not just coming back into you-- it's then sort of bouncing off you forward again) and the shot release requires a lot more care and there's room for lot less error in our hold. 

One can very well argue why bother with springers then? And I would have a lot of sympathy for that position. After all we don't shoot with flintlock rifles any more. But those who do, do it because it's entertaining. That's the same with springers-- it's inherently capable of less accuracy, but it's immensely entertaining to try to make the most of the limited platform. Let's not attach any snobbery or value judgment to what we shoot as a hobby. 


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doninva
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2018-09-04 18:17:37  

Thanks, that all makes good sense. I mostly shoot field target. I have a 33 target range on my property. I like to shoot springers but the frustration level is very high. All 5 of my springers are self tuned at 12fpe. I was just wondering if l take them to say 10.5 fpe, would they be easier to shoot. Not looking for a "magic bullet" but trying to find the best power level. Don


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functor
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2018-09-04 18:38:11  

Yes it will get a bit easier to shoot springers at 10.5 ft-lb compared to 12. Not that it will entirely get rid of the factors I mentioned, but more manageable. But I don't think anyone will ever get even the best production springer, even if tuned, to shoot remotely as well as any of the high end target pcps you mentioned-- not at least consistently. It's best to manage the expectations there.

I certainly have different expectations when shooting my HW77 and say my S410. With the S410, if I shoot 1 moa ctc at 35 yards, that's a very bad group. If I manage the same with the HW77 that's quite a good group! If I ever shoot shoot two consecutive 0 .6 moa groups-- the average for the S410--  with the HW77, I think I will stop shooting and run over to buy a lottery ticket!

That said, I still like my HW77 more than any airgun I own, but that's not because it makes shooting any easier. I shoot springers because it trains me to be a better shooter. Nothing can train us to have a natural point of aim, not to snatch the trigger or to have perfect breathing and follow through as a springer does. 


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DanD
 DanD
(@dand)
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2018-09-04 18:43:43  

 Hi Don. 

I believe hold sensitivity is real.  I've experimented with an accurate magnum springer from different shooting positions, and it  would group tightly, but with different points of impact from each position. 

The reason a tuned, recoiling springer will never shoot like a PCP or your recoiless 300 is because it is jumping during the pellet's travel down the barrel. The physics of the jumping effect can be partially mitigated by combinations of heavier gun weight, lower spring power,  shorter barrel, quicker lock time,  more linear recoil and probably more.

The shooter can work around the jumping effect by using different rest materials, experimenting with the individual rifle to see the best way to hold it and how it reacts to different positions, being very consistent in hold and follow through, and adjusting one's aim to compensate for different shooting positions.

I'm drawn to frustrating challenges and love to shoot springers, but I know plenty of people who get more enjoyment by just hitting the target without making it a lifestyle choice, and that's ok, too.

Keep on shooting what you like, sir!


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gonzav
(@gonzav)
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2018-09-04 18:58:38  

11 FPE seems to be the ideal power level for Spring piston FT rifles. Try adding weight so that the rifle recoils straight back into your shoulder. Trying to tune the rifle so that does not jump. Small wire main spring, synthetic washers. Sometimes trying different holds can help. Something that you can do repeatedly. More than anything else practice shooting in the position you are competing in. Some spring piston rifles do not like being shot from the bench.


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ribbonstone
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2018-09-04 19:04:35  

You do have to wrok at recoilingh springers than"recoiless" air guns. May take you a couple of mothts to figure out WHERE to hole and HOW to hold them, but thers is nothing wrong about the barrels or the velocity varation of a (bronek in) springer.

It;'s that twitchy/jumpy recoil...which happens before the pellet clears the muzzle....which is related to hold and follow though (it's a little bit like shooting a flint lock in that respect....and like those who have kind-of mastered it, they'd not willfully accept anyother platform).

 

Shooting: Co2 vs PCP

OK...didn't really consider a springer at the onaset of this test...out of shame,will toss in a pretty good (although cheap) springer at the same range/same pellet/same 4X 5 shot testing.

In my mind...there IS A DEFINITE difference...1.0 to 1.6MOA is a pretty big difference...but at the range (20-25 yards) being shot, is it enough difference to exclude one from the other?

Consider a dime as .7" (or at 33 yards, something like 2-2.1MOA) and the absolute max range 30-33 yards.

It's all well and good, and I applaude folks that can manage 4 5-shot groups that average 1MOA at 50 yards...or even 100 yards (although most posted examples of either are single groups no where near point of aim...it's that accuracy vs. precision thing).

But what real good is 1 MOA is it when the target is 2MOA? Does make up for some shooter error in range or windage (but not nearly as much as you'd guess..esp. windage).

SOOOO...basically, inside the 30ish yard confines of my back yard, other than measuring clusters on a paper target, it really doesn't make a "rat'sbutt".


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functor
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2018-09-04 21:20:50  

I think you (Ribbonstone) summarized it rather better than the rest of us: Hold sensitivity is a matter of accuracy versus precision.  I think many of us are using the term "hold sensitive" in the sense of lack of precision, whereas some of us mean repeatable accuracy.  

If "hold sensitive" means one must put the support pressures only at specific points for the gun to shoot 1/2" groups that's probably an extremely overpowered springer with a light stock which vibrates badly. I once bought some Gamo springer from Walmart and foremost of its many irredeemable features was its tendency to have the most bone rattling vibration all over. I imagine if I really was a masochist I could find a combination of pressure points to make it shoot precisely. I think that's the definition of hold sensitive( lack of precision) that is often used by airgunners. 

But that is not true for most quality springers. The R1 is probably a better example of a magnum. It will shoot 1/2" groups, albeit with great care and form, but to get it to shoot two 1/2" groups at the same place(accuracy) is tricky. A difference of cheek pressure, or shoulder pressure, which, in a pcp causes the group to shift over by 0.2" , in the sub 12 fpe HW 77 by 0.75", will make the R1 shoot 3-4" away. It is in this sense the R1 is "not" hold sensitive because it will shoot just as well with ANY hold but the error in the hold gets magnified. I think Jim was referring to this in his response. But a PCP is also hold sensitive if accuracy is the measure-- I know for a fact that if I change my cheekweld, the BSA I have (plastic stock) will shoot about 1 pellet high at 30 yards But since we don't really notice .15", we think pcps are not hold sensitive. 

Finally you're absolutely correct that if the target is 2", it's immaterial if the variation is .15" or .5". 

 


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JFS737
(@jfs737)
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2018-09-05 02:07:43  

I agree, ribbonstone hit it pretty square.  Regarding spring vs PCP...  for me it's simple.  Both will group very well if I do my part, PCP's about 1 MOA - 5 shot groups average - on a good day and springers about 1.5 MOA, but the bottom line is the PCP POI will be much more consistent (not perfectly constant though) than a springer, even while both are grouping well.   Maybe it only moves 0.5 MOA but the springers will move say 1 MOA from group to group.  This is the main difference I find with the two.   The POI consistancy, not the CTC grouping consistency is the variable that is harder with the springers.  That to me is hold sensitivity.   But then for others who can say.  

Hasta


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
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Posts: 244
2018-09-05 06:47:16  

I agree with David in his disagreement with Jim, or did he end up agreeing?

Hogwash, and a big UGLY distraction from the fact that many guns shoot like dookie.

Posted by: functor

and foremost of its many irredeemable features was its tendency to have the most bone rattling vibration all over.

If people would ditch or tune the POS, there wouldn't be so many variables, no offense, my first gun was a NIB POS.

Reading about hold (and pellets) was only a distraction and delayed eventual repairs which rectified the lack of accuracy.

Once the gun was fixed, I had to un-hokey-pokey my hold, and went back to "front sight squeeze" never thinking about hold again.

 

Or,

I never had a problem transitioning from powder->springs, because ALL my guns had ALWAYS BEEN hold sensitive.

We once fielded a single shot 12ga "goose gun" which recoiled in a special (bruising) way, it was LIGHTNING on geese and turks with duplex, but kicked so hard the shooter was forced to adjust. YOU became hold sensitive, the gun couldn't care less.

Lesson learned, and the first time I had to break myself of flinch LOL.

 

 

Functor's assessment of improper hold multiplying incorrect alignment during the firing cycle are is correct.

My take is,

poorly fitted =  unnatural hold = hold adjustment = hold "sensitivity"

hold consistency = accuracy (within the gun's limitations, ie. flaming POS)

IMHO hold sensitivity can be equated to being able to compensate for a crooked hammer face.

Apply 2° pitch to a hammer's face, then trying to drive nails. Epic fail, unless you've some hammer dependent trade like wood framing.

Try beating the anvil, watch the bounce, or put your hand out there and wail on a cold chisel! It'll be all over the place!

 

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
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2018-09-05 08:22:34  

We went to a awesome skeet range.

Poorly fitted shotguns are all the rage, with standing goofy running close second in popularity.

 

One guy basically sucked,  I'd only seen him hit 1 bird, and I offered to trade guns.

People REALLY like a gun that just busted a bunch, it gives them new confidence, and his gun was really expensive, more than I'd ever consider buying.

It looked like a trade down for him, WAY down.

My gun shoots close to the bead top ( I thought they all did?)

EDIT

The pupil/front sight/rear sight/pupil (staring down the barrel) method of teaching people to aim only occurred to me while looking at photographs of people pointing guns at a camera.

The method worked repeatedly with complete novices, bad shots, and zero wasted cartridges.

I ALWAYS plug the chamber with a rag ramrodded in, large enough to jamb the action wide open and hang out a foot.

It's equally dangerous to working on a de-enrgized electrical system with shutoff in view and locked out, and the conductors probed for voltage. Nothing is ever truly safe (you've aged while reading) but I am comfortable with it.

 

In the case of the gentleman I mentioned, it was my own gun, and I plugged the chamber with a white rag, asked him to aim it AT THE CAMERA,  then casually walked in front before anyone saw what happened.

One before picture, then a quick "MOVE your eyeball/cheek adjustment"  then a after picture of what it LOOKS like to hit the target (camera lens)

When the camera is aligned to the bore any misalignment in sighting, grip, or cheek weld becomes glaringly obvious. Now they can see the line of bore, it's relationship to sight markings, and their own orientation to the gun. Suddenly a poor shooter is fair, because the camera has become a corrective targert

Not approved for the gun range, don't do it there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Took me 10 shots to get on the bird with his gun, WHY the HECK IS IT 2 FEET HIGH? "Hey buddy, you got the Allen wrench for this stock?"

His $$$$ gun never did fit right, fit me fine, 😉 OR 😉  I adjusted, and we parted ways with him talking about replacement.

 

My advice was to take his bead sight out to the junk gun range and see EXACTLY WHERE the bead REALLY IS on the pattern, and slowly investigate how the fitment effects POI. The skeet are just a distraction, and prevent learning to shoot.

What they need is a red mark on the anvil, just hammer that till you can hold it straight, with a straight bounce,  and don't worry about bending nails...... yes this is esoteric, or compiled knowledge, or jmho

 

 

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


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JiminPGH
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Posts: 278
2018-09-05 16:05:32  

hungarian1

This little Hungarian shoots 7.9's at right around 500 fps, for a whopping 4.9 FPE.  With a direct sear trigger, it is one of the most challenging spring guns I own.  Also one of my all-time favorites.  Point is, I've spent a few years with this gun, and yes, it has a nasty trigger, but I can cut a suspended beercan in half in under 20 shots with it in the basement.  And that's standing, without a rest.  Cutting cans gets harder, the further you go into it.  Near the end, you're basically shooting at threads.  I don't THINK about how to hold the gun.  I pull it out of the cabinet and shoot it the way it feels right.  I grant that it may take me a few warmups, especially if I'm coming off a CO2 or SSP, but I still believe hold sensitivity is just an excuse for not learning how to shoot your gun.


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doninva
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2018-09-05 16:57:51  

Jim, with your shooting ability, l would think you would run away with the field target national spring piston class of your choice in October. Don


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
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2018-09-05 17:03:38  

It took me a good long while to learn springers...then Igot the PCP bug and pretty much forgot them for many years.

Picking them back up...was horrible....but at I do think all those years with springers left a pathway, as I picked them up a lot easier the 2nd time. Well...maybe not "easy" as it took shooting springers every day for a couple of months and neglecting the PCP's, SSP's, MSP's, and co2's.

But I do think you can do it, so long as you are a pay attention toi what the springer NEEDS and not how you want to hold/shoot it.

Where to hold it...how to hold it...lots of follow though as it takes a good long time between then netal sense of "fire" and the actual pellet exit.

OK...here is a hint (for both airguns and fire arms)...keep your eyes openand watch the front sightr (or the retical). If it towns't bounce/twitch in the same pattern,then the shot ain't going in the same place. If you don't actually see the twtich/bounce of the rifle, then you blinked.

You are 2/3rds of the way there when you can call you missed shots (knowing from the sight picture which way the odd "recoil twtich/flip" went).

You ever wonder if the hard-core springer shooters posting here are liers, just got lucky, if the expense of the rifle just naturally made it a better shooter, or if they had some kind of trick?

Nope... they evidently gave up their preconcieved ideas of how a rifleshould be shot and listed to how the rifle wanted to be shot. Even "cheap"rifles can shoot well with an attentive shooter.

Yep...I do like accuracy WITH precsion much more that either of those seperately. Why else would you be squeezing the trigger if not to pan the pellet right on the thing you waht to shoot?

Keep shooting...expeerimnet with holding....keep an open mind...do what the rifle tells you it needs...and you'll be OK with springers.


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JiminPGH
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2018-09-05 18:29:24  
Posted by: doninva

Jim, with your shooting ability, l would think you would run away with the field target national spring piston class of your choice in October. Don

No hard feelings Don.  I understand and respect your "put up or shut up" message.  Truth is I don't compete, except against myself.  I plink, therefore I am.  I've shot informal competitions with my shooting buddies, but nothing formal against "serious" shooters.  A few rounds of silhouette, dancing around plastic golf balls, and cutting cans.  Always among friends.  And we frequently switch guns to mix it up a bit.  My favorite line from one of our shoots is "Hey Jim, your gun just missed."  For me, it's a hobby, and a relaxation I get from zen-like focus.  In my youth, I competed in downhill skiing and gymnastics.  I don't miss competition.  I shoot air rifles for fun and relaxation.  But - message received.


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RB708
(@rb708)
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2018-09-05 23:15:16  

The problem I have with springers is each one has its own individual, for lack of a better term, 'hold sensitivity'.  And some times I don't have time for a 'warm up' session when trying to hunt with one.  I have one that is much easier to shoot consistently cold or warmed up, but it is still nowhere as easy to hit with out of the rack than just about any other power platform c02, ssp,  msp, or especially a pcp.   Just my personal observations.


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unionrdr
(@unionrdr)
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2018-09-06 11:23:30  

Whether it's a springer or gas ram, I hold it just firmly enough to steady it for good aim. No more, no less. And at my age, that, " Artillery hold" would be uncomfortable. More like a cramp in my wrist. I think that the artillery hold is something akin to a myth. Hold it the same way you would any rifle. Just don't pull an air rifle into your shoulder, or firmly grip the forestock with your arm held stiffly. Those are about the only difference between shooting a PB rifle and an air rifle. Save for minor differences in a particular rifle's design. 


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Noah_1325
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2018-09-06 23:25:46  
Posted by: unionrdr

Whether it's a springer or gas ram, I hold it just firmly enough to steady it for good aim. No more, no less. And at my age, that, " Artillery hold" would be uncomfortable. More like a cramp in my wrist. I think that the artillery hold is something akin to a myth. Hold it the same way you would any rifle. Just don't pull an air rifle into your shoulder, or firmly grip the forestock with your arm held stiffly. Those are about the only difference between shooting a PB rifle and an air rifle. Save for minor differences in a particular rifle's design. 

I'd like to think I can shoot PCP, CO2 and pumpers decent enough, but them springers and I just don't mesh. I've tried an array of springers (HW35, HW35E, HW97K and a Slavia 634) but I just cannot tame them. Horrible. I've tried everything - various holds, various pellets, various benchrest devices, various rests/bags, various lubes, various scopes, various gimmicks, etc.  All-in-all, being able to get a few "X" shots at 25M keeps me going for more. We will see and more to come.


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James Perotti
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2018-09-07 02:52:37  

The thing about springers isn't the recoil characteristics, but the fact that they don't generate there power until after the trigger is pulled. I would say in a pcp slight differences in pellet fit are less noticeable, than in a springer where those same differences alter the shot cycle, from shot to shot.


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Domer_Pyle
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2018-09-07 21:43:40  
Posted by: JiminPGH

Hold sensitivity is a myth.  And an excuse for not knowing how to shoot your gun.  Powder burners are hold sensitive as well.  Each gun is unique, and requires a certain technique.  I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's the truth.  It's also the truth that recoiling spring piston guns require MORE technique than just about anything, therefore more TRIGGER TIME to learn proper technique.  The common reasoning is to equate learning time with hold sensitivity.  If it takes a long time to learn how to make the gun perform, it's considered hold-sensitive.  I call hogwash.

Let the flames commence.

Once I stopped trying to create fancy holds for 15-25 ft/lb springers and just pulled them to the shoulder and aimed without thinking my groups became much more consistent. Except my Remington Express. Pulled TIGHT or barely touching it. Only two ways it will pull an inch group at 40ish yards


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stevevines
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2018-09-08 07:44:55  

I don't think hold sensitivity is a myth, I think it's a result of non-linear recoil, if that makes sense.

An un-tuned or over sprung(?) gun torques the gun in a different manner with every shot, changing the poi -

I just got one of my TX MK1 back from Dave Slade.  It shoots sooooooo much better now, and combined with the trigger work, it's like a different gun.

Still sub 12 fpe, but what a difference.

Not nearly as hold sensitive because it's recoiling the same way EVERY TIME -

EDIT: I do think Jim has a point though: springers require an investment of time, and lots of folks don't have the time or either don't think they should have to work at it. They want, expect, or feel they are entitled to experience perfect accuracy without any effort -I suppose that's okay, that's what high $ pcp's are for - but spring guns just don't work that way -

THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT DON -

This is as much for my benefit, as I came in LAST PLACE at the last 2 day AAFTA match I attended - 

Time to practice!

 


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justinp61
(@justinp61)
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2018-09-08 09:12:43  

  I've only been shooting air guns for 15 months so take this with a pound of salt. My first air rifle was a diana 48 in .22, it was very frustrating learning to shoot it well. About six months after buying the 48 I bought a 34 in .177, it's much easier to shoot well. Installing Vortek kits in both guns helped smooth the shot cycles in both guns. Both rifles consistency depends on the hold. Neither rifle shoot consistenly well off bags, no matter where you place them.

  I bought a FWB 300S about three months ago, wow, what a difference! Even as smooth and as accurate as it is if you get the bag out near the end of the stock groups will open up.

  I've shot powder burners all my life and load for all my center fires. It's been my experience that if the poi changes on a powder burner depending on bag placement you need a better stock.


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doninva
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2018-09-08 10:00:01  

Steve, l have to agree. You can buy a high dollar pcp and expect it to shoot great with little effort. I have been surprised at the amount of intrest in this thread. I have leared a LOT and thank everyone that has responded. It looks like you need to lower your expectations, put the pcps up and dedicate your time to shoot a spring gun well. Thanks again for ALL the comments and keep them coming. Don


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
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Posts: 228
2018-09-08 19:41:22  

I've often been tempted to find a beat to snot RWS 54...onw with lots of bule wear,and some stock damage that would sell for cheap...and shoot it as a "recoiless"and then lock the slide rails and shoot it as "recoiling" and see how much differently they shoot. (Basically, I don't want to screw up a nice FWB 300 or 150 to find out).

 

Still keep 1/2 an eye open for a rusty, beat up RWS54 to "cobble" on.....even though I THINK I know the anser, it really don't matter what I think until I can prove it.


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