Seneca Dragonfly-I ...
 

Seneca Dragonfly-I see that it can be pre-ordered,and is expected next month....  

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EricinMaine
(@ericinmaine)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 53
2018-03-19 20:10:46  

Looking at the picture,it looks to me like it's papa was married to a Stormrider.If so ,maybe Steve's Supersear would fit into it.That would be great.I think I'd want to cut the stock back to just before the trigger guard,and make a longer pump arm.Then keep pumping past the 8 pumps and try to get 800 fps for a .22 cal.pellet.I wonder what the first limiting factor would be.With a full size scope on it,I think the barrel band would need to be moved ahead of the pump hinge.I would probably need to hold on to the rifle somewhere there when pumping.The price looks good.Scoping would be cheaper and easier than the Benjamin 392/397.The weight is low.Size seems to be easy to work with.Is anyone else interested in this one?

EricinMaine-


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pistolero
(@pistolero)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 317
2018-03-19 20:58:46  

I'm definitely interested in this multi-pump version of the RWS Stormrider/AirMax Plinkster Co2 rifles.

Love my .22 Plinkster and equivalent .22 CP1-M pistol. The Chinese Co2 guns perform very similarly to my beloved vintage Crosman Co2 guns, but with decidedly different and attractive styling.

Specs for the multi-pump rifle suggest it also performs similarly to vintage Crosman multi-pumps (and Benjamin and Sheridan), again with attractive styling. So in my opinion, these may be very good alternatives to contemporary American pumpers.

I'll be anxious to see if, and how much, the .22 calibers can be hot-rodded.  

"No brag; just fact."- Will Sonnett


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Steve in NC
(@steve-in-nc)
Dealer
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Posts: 330
2018-03-20 12:00:37  

Good eye, Eric!

Turns out that the Dragonfly's trigger group is identical to the Stormrider/Varmint/Plinkster hardware, so the Super will indeed drop right in.   See page 10 of the D-fly's manual.

https://cdn.pyramydair.com/images/manuals/AV-DragonFly-manual.pdf


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 452
2018-03-20 14:03:51  

Eric, I also wonder what it would take to get more than 800 fps in .22 caliber that you're looking for?  Maybe something offered from someone here on this forum?

I don't know that specific rifle at all, but my own experience with MSP's--that is, increasing the number of pumps to increase velocity--wasn't very successful.  The pumping effort increased as I pumped the rifles above the maximum number of recommended strokes, but the velocity didn't increase much.  I know some people have added some after-market mods to certain model MSP's to increase their maximum velocity, but I think it took some work on the valve-reservoir, or hammer, or both, to get there.  However, let me add a disclaimer that the rifles I tried it with were two different Crosman models, and my efforts to get higher velocity out of them with more pumps were done many years ago.

I'm just thinking out loud here, and not trying to rain on your parade or your know-how.  I'll be eager to see what someone can come up with, because in spite of all the other air gun offerings we have, my love of the MSP rifles still remains from my boyhood days.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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miltoncaniff
(@miltoncaniff)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 33
2018-03-20 16:11:01  

I just pre-ordered today. I have a Smith&Wesson 77A that I love and am looking forward to this one. I've just never been a Benjamin fan. Does anyone else make a .177 600+fps multi pump rifle?

A Walther barrel would make this a shooter. Someone needs to machine some!

Friends and their kids always want to shoot when they come over and in the past I have either dropped a fortune in CO2 cartridges or pumped my butt off filling PCP's. If this is a well built multi pump, I may get more than just the one. Who am I kidding, these kids will shoot it and hand it to someone to pump it!

If I Throw a Stick Will You Go Away?


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Steve in NC
(@steve-in-nc)
Dealer
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 330
2018-03-20 20:31:17  

Both theory and practice suggest that getting 20fpe from a 12fpe pumper...

...requires considerably more than just extra pumping.

Meanwhile, moving in the opposite direction power-wise, it might be interesting to debounce the hammer with FFH and tune for air conservation yielding two (or more) shots between rechargings and thus take better advantage of the D-fly's repeater capability.


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EricinMaine
(@ericinmaine)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 53
2018-03-21 15:34:22  

Pistolero,I really liked the wooden stock on the Stormrider.I have always wanted a pumper with good power and accuracy.

ekmeister,I am not qualified to design the changes needed to get the extra power.I am looking for answers to what I think are relevant questions.My experiences are like yours.When I pump beyond the recommended  # of pumps;increase  is small in most pumpers.

miltoncaniff,I put one on pre-order today.I asked about replacement parts,specifically the barrel.The sales lady was not too optimistic.As for having the kids over for shooting fun...just think of the great mussel tone you will develope.

Steve in NC,I think optimizing efficiency with an HDD would be ,to me ,a standard first step.Maybe a second shot could be had for 2 or 3 pumps.We'd have to chrony a few shot to see what would get the desired velocity.My Stormrider currently maxes at 26.4 fpe. with a .22 cal. CPHP.The D-fly is so much lower.The hammer energy doesn't need to be as high.I wonder if they cut the spring or shortened the hammer throw?

If I cut the stock back and made a longer pump arm for  greater leverage-Would the pump linkages bend under the mounting stress of over pumping?Would the pressure leak by the pump head?Is there an overpressure release that would vent the extra pressure?Did they change the valve,or the valve's return spring ,that might cause the valve to lock under the extra pressure?Would the current TP size limit the output power too much?The pump head size may be too large to allow much of an increase with the leverage system,but if it were smaller, than the # of pumps needed for higher velocities could get too high to be practical.Can you shed any light on any of this?

EricinMaine-


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 452
2018-03-21 16:10:58  

miltoncaniff, the Crosman 2100 MSP rifle in .177 caliber is rated at 755 fps for BBs, and should still be capable of more than 600 fps when using pellets.  I owned one years ago and I know I chronied it with lead pellets.  I don't remember the exact velocity I got with light pellets like Beeman Silver Bears/H&N Hollow Points, but I think it was at least 600 fps--more like 650+ fps IIRC.  Yes, you get a plastic stock instead of wood, at least that was the case with the one I bought back then, but I seem to remember that it was a reliable and fairly-accurate rifle when using the right pellet.  I had zero issues with stock breakage.  Note that you won't get a Walther barrel either.  In fact, according to my memory the 2100 has a unique bore set-up that is sort of like a 'rifled drinking straw', but it does the job with pellets.  As to accuracy with BBs though, in my experience all bets are off in that department unless you're talking about one of the Daisy match rifles, and their power/velocity is much lower than that of the 2100.

Here's just one link to the rifle.  Lots of places sell it:

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Crosman_2100B_Air_Rifle/226

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Steve in NC
(@steve-in-nc)
Dealer
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Posts: 330
2018-03-21 17:51:22  

Many discussions of the physics that limit pumper performance and experiments to work around them...

...are a perfect example of the mountains of information that were lost when the Yellow was disabled.  But in a nutshell, the single most important reason that keeps pumpers from matching PCP performance can be summed up in one word:  Volume.

In a PCP, the energy that propels the pellet comes not only from the volume of air that's expended with the shot, but also from the (typically much larger) volume of air that's retained in the reservoir because the latter volume supports an efficient (near) iso-thermal/baric phase of propulsion, making much better use of the former volume.  Dump-valve pumpers lack the retained air factor, and so struggle to be even half as efficient as HDD-equipped PCPs.

Theoretically, pumpers can be pushed to PCP power levels by multiplying valve volumes sufficiently (i.e., by factors of 3 to 10), but unless accompanied by conversion to air conservation, the resulting amount of pumping required (e.g., 30 strokes or more) between shots becomes pretty un-fun and prohibitive.

Also, just finding room for such large increases in air storage volume in a typical pumper is a difficult exercise.


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EricinMaine
(@ericinmaine)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 53
2018-03-21 18:47:23  

Steve in NC,

If I understand that;pumpers would benefit from a tank in conjunction with ,perhaps,a larger air volume valve?Lets assume an HDD is installed.--Now ,my late 1970's 10 speed bicycle had a 2 stage airpump that hung under the top tube.It gave 100 psi.plus and great volume for it's size,and this with no leverage.The pump was about the diameter of these gun's airtubes.Do you think that would give enough advantage to be significant?We are now talking outside of the realm of what either you or I would do to the D-fly.Probably this is already used in the FX independence.But pumpers are some of the cheapest and lightest airguns available,so maybe we have some wiggle room.Maybe I should wait and see  what the pumping effort of the .22 cal.version is like.But I'll be needing another HDD and Supersear soon.

EricinMaine-


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Steve in NC
(@steve-in-nc)
Dealer
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Posts: 330
2018-03-22 10:12:11  

The FX Indy definitely incorporates a multi (probably 3) stage pump...

...and a multi-shot-volume air reservoir.  But as you say, such features are probably well beyond the limits of feasible mod's for the humble little D-fly.  Even a 2-stage pump, although potentially very helpful in reducing pumping effort and increasing throughput and high pressure efficiency, would be a very ambitious project.

The diagram of the D-fly shows only a basic single stage pump with a simple scissor style linkage.  But it does incorporate an adjustable length, flat-face, O-ring sealed piston and so could be a very good example of its breed.  I don't like how the rear sight is located right where you'll probably want to place a hand while pumping, but if the gun is scoped and the open sight removed, maybe it won't be too uncomfortable.

Bottom line, and again as you say, actually shooting an example will answer a lot of questions both about the quality of the design and potential for improvement.


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