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Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 133
2019-05-27 19:07:22  

With the demise of the old Yellow forum, I notice that interest in the Classified page here has dropped off sharply. Outside of Brad's  AA site, where is a good place to sell an airgun these days (Gunbroker I suppose would also be an option).  Has anyone had any problems selling on Brad's site? Any tips for not getting scammed or taken outside of, don't ship the gun until you have the $$ in hand and use PayPal or insist on a USPS money order.

It's a shame that the market for used airgun collapsed in the course of a couple years. I think everyone may have underestimated how the old Yellow forum drove the market and provided even manufacturers of higher end airguns with a small but viable market. Understandable I guess, when you consider the average age of Yellow members (I think it was over 50 right before it went kaput). I see it happening in other vintage goods forums and markets though as Baby Boomer collectors age out. Younger people don't care about this stuff.

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


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daveshoot
(@daveshoot)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 60
2019-05-27 20:39:00  

There were 33 viewing the YC just now.

While I stand guilty of age, mostly I have just run out of places to put the things. And I did just order another one, first in about a year. I had been sooo good.

If you have discounted old German things, you could always just let me know. I still don't have a Diana 75 or an Anschutz.


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thirdshift
(@thirdshift)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 44
2019-05-27 21:10:33  

I have purchased a few air rifles and a few air pistols at ebay.com over the past two years or so. So far my experiences have been good.


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 433
2019-05-27 21:23:15  

I still won't even do Paypal, at least not yet.  I know some people are fine about it.  I may miss some deals, but don't want to take a chance. It's strictly USPS money orders for me, and even then checking to make sure it's a good one before I ship.

I want to share a 'funny'story about that, and I don't mean humorous.  And, just to be clear this is NOT about someone I've seen frequenting this forum.

When I tune an air gun, I state from the first email that payment is to be by USPS money order, period--then again when I email the invoice. 

I've gotten personal checks a few times, and I guess It's usually a mistake, because when I send an email, 'sorry, can't accept this, nothing personal', most people immediately correct their error. 

But, one guy prepaid based on my quote, and even had the 2 amounts on the personal check filled out differently (I.e. the amount in numerals and the amount spelled out in words didn't match).  Sorry--I sorta smelled a rat, and felt I couldn't chance it in any case. 

When I sent him the first email AND a photo of the 'odd'check, boy was he ANGRY!  "This check is good, I have thousands in the bank, how dare you quetion my honesty" yada yada.  I sent back the air rifle and torn-up check on my dime, with a polite note, without doing any work

Like a year or more later, I see the exact same guy's name in a warning for multiple scams on another forum.  I'm glad I stayed away.

Someone once told me, the guy who complains the loudest is probably the one you have to watch out for.  I still have a photo of the torn check and the emails as mementos.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Cvan
 Cvan
(@cvan)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 28
2019-05-27 22:13:20  

In the past (not recently) I have had no problems selling or making purchases on Brad's  classifieds. Just haven't done much with airguns is the last couple of years. Yes old age has something to do with it and a renewed interest in Daisy BB guns. 


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TomCin42
(@tomcin42)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 18
2019-05-28 08:42:14  

Been buying & selling air guns for the last 35 years,over 200 we sold. Now I place a Ad and get ,Im interested ! Yes 98 % will be Scammers and Names you never heard. Forgot to Mention a lot of Womens Names !  Now I don't answer unless its someone I know ! Real Air Gunners are  Great People and Scammers should go somewhere else !


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Beeman22
(@beeman22)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 80
2019-05-28 16:49:32  

As a buyer, I've talked to a few sellers on Brad's sight, but never got comfortable enough to do business with them, except in cases where they had BOI feedback here or other reputable site, AND I was able to cross-match their contact information with something on the old BOI, etc., to make sure they were who they said they were.  I still look there all the time, but I"m cautious. 

From the seller's point of view, don't ship until you've got the cash. If you accept regular paypal, there is the (low) risk a buyer falsely accuses you of not sending what they paid for, so you do get more protection by only accepting USPS MO, but the downside is now you've got to work a lot harder to prove to buyers that you're not a scammer.

Gun Broker is ok - you'll probably get a few more dollars for the gun, but it's usually offset by their cut of the action. Ebay is even worse - you'll almost certainly get more $$ (I don't know what some of those buyers are thinking...), but a 10% commission plus another 3% for paypal takes a big chunk out of the proceeds, so it's really not worth it IMHO. 

Bottom line: The "new" YF isn't as robust as the old one once was, but the BOI (old and new) remains the best source of information there is on airgun buyers/sellers out there, with feedback dating back a long time.   My dealings with people on the BOI have been a pleasure, and that's why this is still the first place I look for things I want to buy, and the first place I list the stuff I want to sell, although I'll use AGN and GTA as well. 

-Shareef


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mike_nashville
(@mike_nashville)
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 42
2019-05-28 18:38:36  

For some reason I thought it was just me when I noticed the amount of postings on the "New" Yellow pages.  When it first changed over I got lost in the shuffle.  I joined the original Yellow pages in Dec 2014 but had to rejoin this past March.  What would be the difference in this forum and the old one?  Where did everyone go?

I have just started following the GTA forum but I get lost with all the "gates" they have.  Everything is so compartmentalized and I don't have a clue where anything is.  Their classified page is also very limited as well.  I'm kinda old school and like nice wood stocks more then synthetic.


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 605
2019-05-28 19:03:27  

ekmeister, I'm confused about your Pay Pal view

if you buy something on Ebay you use Pay Pal to pay for it and after that you are protected by both as a buyer or seller

Pay Pal is used on most major seller and it is no more then a simple way for you and me to pay for items

now you could have problems with the owner of the Pay Pal but as a service it is as slick as it gets and as for myself it has saved me much money and time and the ability to find hard to get items from out of the country

Ebay and Pay Pal can be your friend but you have to introduce yours to the service and Ebay

but to each there own I guess but Pay Pal has saved my A$$ more then once

 

Mike


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Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 133
2019-05-28 19:26:20  
Posted by: mike_nashville

For some reason I thought it was just me when I noticed the amount of postings on the "New" Yellow pages.  When it first changed over I got lost in the shuffle.  I joined the original Yellow pages in Dec 2014 but had to rejoin this past March.  What would be the difference in this forum and the old one?  Where did everyone go?

I have just started following the GTA forum but I get lost with all the "gates" they have.  Everything is so compartmentalized and I don't have a clue where anything is.  Their classified page is also very limited as well.  I'm kinda old school and like nice wood stocks more then synthetic.

Where the current Yellow might have 32 people viewing at any one time, the old one had 300+. The difference was there were a lot more members and guests. The format was a but different too. Old posts went to the bottom and stayed there, even as replies came in. Some liked that. There was an Off Topic that was frequented by some real characters and every so often there were some dust-ups. Nothing too bad but then folks started getting banned. There was also a Religion & Politics section that was well, Religion and politics and not for the faint of heart. Where did they go? Good question, I suspect some moved on to other forums, some moved on to other hobbies, some died and a few are left here. Why did they go? That's been hashed over enough. We'll just leave it be.

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


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WyoMan
(@wyo)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 17
2019-05-28 20:54:45  

I agree, Bill. I analogize forums a little bit like High School….i.e. there is a nearly complete turnover in the membership body every three to four years, the admins and faculty stay longer but they will also come and go, and there are the juvenile aspects such as cliques, bullying, popularity contests, etc (not so much here but in other forums).

 

Folks leave because they move on, or life forces them to move on… it is just a hobby for most and for the most part hobbies can get old or boring. Nothing really profound about that, but where are the new members that have new ideas and new constructs? That is what’s missing, imho, and maybe symptomatic of an overall decline in this hobby/sport.

 

I’m still here but don’t have much to say because I’m a pistol (non-pcp) aficionado and there’s not much interest in that… I still shoot nearly everyday and probably will for many more years…

Wyo


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 433
2019-05-28 22:11:45  
Posted by: marflow

ekmeister, I'm confused about your Pay Pal view...

but to each there own I guess...

No problem, I know it's my view and I can live with that.  More than one buyer asks you to list the purchase as a gift to avoid the fee, and I've never felt right about that since it's not the truth. Then there's Palpal's on again off again double speak about guns, although I know right this second there are certainly air guns listed there.  Granted, I haven't heard about such problems for awhile, but it's their playground and they make the rules.  They could change their mind if the wind changes directions.

What it comes down to is I won't take the chance of not getting paid, or having my membership cancelled because they change their mind again.  The USPS doesn't care if the money order is for an air gun or not, and never has to my knowledge.  I like being as close as possible to being 100% sure I get paid for my tuning efforts or an air gun purchase.  I do use Paypal for other things--


toy trains, musical equipment, art supplies, and I have no complaints there.

What it really comes down to in the end for me: You nailed it.  To each their own, like you just said.  If you're happy with them, I say go for it.  If I looked at it like you do, I'd probably use them too.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Cvan
 Cvan
(@cvan)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 28
2019-05-29 10:49:44  

Your not alone about the gifting. If I'm going to use their service I'm going to do it honestly. On top of that if there is a problem with a transaction and you need help from paypal how are going to explain your actions. 


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Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 133
2019-05-29 11:33:53  

Wyo - The Old Yellow had it's share of turn over but there was also a large core group of regulars who stuck with it for years. As the old forum waned, many drifted away. There aren't many left here as a result and the loss of them brings about a loss of new people coming here through word of mouth. How many times did the regulars tell of recruiting new people to the sport through contacts at the range, sporting goods stores, friends and acquaintances? There was also a great interest in owning, restoring vintage guns. Most of that is gone now. When you're in a hobby visiting a forum every day only to watch it die a slow death with no explanation forthcoming you tend to lose interest. I know I did, hence the question of selling a few guns.

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 433
2019-05-29 12:42:19  
Posted by: Bill S.

Wyo - The Old Yellow had it's share of turn over but there was also a large core group of regulars who stuck with it for years. As the old forum waned, many drifted away. There aren't many left here as a result and the loss of them brings about a loss of new people coming here through word of mouth. How many times did the regulars tell of recruiting new people to the sport through contacts at the range, sporting goods stores, friends and acquaintances? There was also a great interest in owning, restoring vintage guns. Most of that is gome now.

Thanks for the dose of reality check.  Springer tuning is way down, as are, as you could guess would also be true, requests for springer tuning quotes.  Not that I really mind the latter since the former is true.  There have always been a certain number of 'tire kickers', but now I seem to get more than before in the way of percentages.  I.e. requests with loads of questions to be answered, only to get either no reply, or 'Sorry, I changed my mind' can be frustrating when they happen too often.

So, what should I surmise from all of that?  That if guys ARE recommending air guns to their general friends, or friends at the range, the recommendations are all about PCP's?  Maybe, I guess.  I'm still surprised that people can fork out the cost of a PCP plus tank, compressor, etc. 

Then the there's the bad name Wal-Mart carried, low-quality springers give the hardware.  Those rifles can't be good for the reputation of the sport.

I may be jumping ahead here, thinking I'm seeing the ultimate settling of the situation, when it's really just the extreme end of the pendulum swing.  Maybe it will come back around.  I just know I used to get a lot more email--I can't remember the last email I got about a Diana Springer, and I used to get lots (OK, except for a tire kicker the other day-lol).

I hope ARH/James Maccari isn't seeing what I'm seeing.  If a lack of springer part sales cause him to find other other things to do that are more lucrative, we will have lost an invaluable resource.  He may retire, too, of course, but I'm not talking about that.

If it seems things have veered here, I'm saying yes, things have sure changed since the days of Old Yeller.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Kingfisher1961
(@kingfisher1961)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 216
2019-05-30 06:00:37  

Bill 

Thanks for sharing your observations about the "new" vs the "old" Yellow.  It's not a new subject , but definitely not one that's to be ignored. 

My Pop used to say ..." When you look in a dog house, you find a dog."  Simple words, but oh so true!  You're view that things have changed is stating the obvious.  Of course they have....it's a whole new site!!

The Sport has also changed.  Spring guns are not the only game in town anymore.  PCP rifles are currently the dominant item.  It's a market driven situation and PCP rifles are the current choice of new and old shooters. 

The aim of any purchase is to achieve results.  PCP rifles provide results even for the worst of shooters.  So why struggle ?

Just as the purchase market has changed, so has the selling end changed.  With the advent of Ebay allowing airgun sales and the creation of numerous new airgun sites, the Yellow has suffered.  Personally,  I have found that it's easier to list on Ebay and the audience is much broader.  I still list here to allow for those I know are looking to see, but I don't limit myself to any one site.  Perhaps this could be helpful to sellers.  

In so far as scammers, the best way to do business is to cover your ass!  Don't take chances with your sale or purchase just to save a couple of bucks.  It's like driving uninsured. ...usually ends up bad.  PayPal protects your sale/purchase for a 3% fee.  Why wouldn't you take that offer?  It's saved me on several occasions and given me peace of mind on all.  My biggest concern in selling is in shipping and handling! !!  You can do everything right and still end up with a problem.  Lol!

Needless to say,  selling is NOT EASY!  So, don't put the blame on the Yellow or any site for that matter....but look at the big picture.   The only constant in life is change.  He who deals with Change well will be successful. 

Thanks for sharing and thanks for listening to my 2 cents.

 

 

 


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DavidEnoch
(@davidenoch)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 245
2019-05-30 09:59:06  

Hi Guys,

This post has addressed several issues.

First off, I use PayPal all the time and feel fairly safe using it.  I always add the fees when I purchase even if not asked too.  It's the "do unto other's" rule.  I don't like receiving less than I asked due to fees.

Second, spring rifle usage and therefore tuning is down.  But, there is a desperate need for PCP tuners.  I really think they would be easier to work on than springers once you understood them.

Thirdly on the forum, yes this place has dwindled.  The US airgun community is now split among half a dozen forums.  Part of this was due to the owners relationship and feelings towards some dealers, part due to forum moderation which many felt was too heavy handed, and partially due to the old out of date format.  I was one who loved and fought for the old format so that partially my fault.  Unfortunately, like Humpty Dumpty, we can't put it back together again.

David Enoch


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Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 133
2019-05-30 18:19:46  

"The aim of any purchase is to achieve results. PCP rifles provide results even for the worst of shooters. So why struggle ?"

Accurate observations, but this topic has also been covered over the years since affordable PCPs have been available. There will always be people who want a quick fix - no learning curve. You point the gun, achieve some semblance of a proper trigger pull and you hit your target, repeatedly (see modern crossbows). There is certainly a time and place for this and for that, there are also cartridge guns that do this quite well. But some people like springers if for no other reason than they are self-sufficient, unencumbered devices that recall a simpler time or a romp in the woods when you were younger. There was a market for them but I suspect it was mostly old geezers like me who couldn't bring themselves to shell out upwards of $1,500 for an air rile when they had access to rimfire and centerfire rifles. When those wouldn't do, there were air rifles. I'm not against owning PCPs and in fact I've owned several. Yes, the market changed but the fact of the matter is the old forum imploded. It didn't have to but it did. I can live with that - I've moved on as have most. Just looking to lighten my load of rifles and pistols as I don't need or want all that I own. I think I'm dealing with that change pretty well. I'm not going to spend my remaining years caring for a bevy of guns no one wants anymore and I'm not looking to gear up for the current lineup in the sport. I'm pursuing other interests these days but do still pop in here from time to time.  New site is just fine and I don't mind it one bit. 1/100th the membership is a little disappointing but I'll get over it.

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


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JiminPGH
(@jiminpgh)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 277
2019-05-30 18:24:00  

Kingfisher summed it up pretty well.  Times, and the market have definitely changed.  I'm one of the dinosaurs who still enjoys shooting spring piston air rifles.  I too miss the good old days of James Kitching's yellow forum.  I actually bought a couple of his rifles and scopes off the Fun Supply website.  His 4X32AO scope was one of the best and brightest I've ever owned in that price range and a little beyond.

But progress is inexorable, and with the advent of affordable high-pressure compressors, old time steel-hide-and-timber pellet rifles are increasingly a niche market, and the niche is shrinking.

I predict that the next disruptive wave will be self-driving cars.  Just like smart phones, they will swoop in and be everywhere before we even notice.  Cars you actually drive will not go away, just as horses and sailboats never went away.  They just became relegated to toys for those who can afford them.  As a devout  manual transmission driver, I will miss being in control of my car, but I will be powerless to stop the wave.  Just as I am powerless to stop the wave of affordable, and dare I say damn fine PCP air rifles that are putting traditional air rifle shooters into an increasingly small box of quaint anachronisms.  


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Cvan
 Cvan
(@cvan)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 28
2019-05-30 23:28:14  

I think you folks are all correct. From my perspective the same thing has happened with R/C airplanes and wooden boats. It has become a world of instant gratification without exerting any more effort than possible.  Bring your wallet and own the best there is. It's too bad as people who are self motivated and skilled with their hands are getting hard to find. When we were growing up our imaginations were our best source of entertainment. Now it's a computer game or facebook. I really wonder how many youth under 18 are gleaning information from forums or magazines. I would guess that most just click on Youtube and there's you answers.  The worst part is we have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing this to happen. 


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Riversidesports
(@riversidesports)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 16
2019-05-31 00:18:59  

What happened here is what has happened on many popular forums:

Graphic change in both format & policy

This has occurred an a number of once very popular powder burner websites.  Generally what happens is the owner tires of herding cats and anoints other parties to assist in moderation duties.  Pretty soon the new guys start suggesting some new gee whizz bang format often coupled with registration & pay for play ads

Then POOF ! the membership diminishes and activity turns into tumbleweeds

Some of this gradually occurred here and it started on the old Yellow boards with expecting folks who were making little bits on a table top Unimat lathe to register and pay to advertise.  It just killed the hobby building of custom Crossman builds.  Yeah, that's why you can hardly find custom breeches and such currently.  Many of those guys would do a very small run of bits and sell them incredibly cheap...it wasn't about making money, well unless you bill your time at less than a buck or two an hour.

I can easily give you two other formerly very popular websites for registered Machinegun crowd this happened to.  One is Subguns, the other Strumgewher.  Used to be ads were free on both, those boards rolled over two or three times a day.  Both changed format, required registration to advertise and pay to play.  Both sales sections are now tumbleweeds

This is also why Brads has such heavy traffic, it's free, it's basic, no bells or whistles registration, etc.  Yes you have to have caution, there are scammers embedded there.

Truthfully there are more folks now into AGs than ever before.  I have little trouble selling a stray FWB, Walther, etc at gunshows when I bother to put one on a table...even ten years back no interest but today a great many people are active Air gunners and interestingly many are younger guys who complain to me there just isn't enough traffic here.

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea, facts are change comes to all things always.  Sometimes it works online, more often it creates an implosion of the first magnitude.  Being candid, the new format gives me headaches, too bright.  I am with management on having actual companies pay to advertise here but as noted it created repercussions with guys that were making bits as a hobby

Understand there are a number of things that are selling for far less than the were twenty years ago due to the lack of interest by millennials.  German three barrel combination guns are an example.  One that sold around 3K+ in the 80s is half of that currently.  Antique Bone China is another...most you can hardly give away these days.  Stirling Silver flatware goes mostly for melt value...younger folks would rather have stainless than polishing Silver.  Goes on and on and on

Oh and driverless cars ?

Not going to happen outside urban zones, perhaps interstates.  Same is true of EVs  Much of America still lives rural, even on gravel roads.  Moreover half the nation gets incredibly cold.  Here in the upper Midwest country kids might sit on a bus up to three hours a day, many folks live over twenty miles from the closest supermarket.  The level of new infrastructure to institute driverless tech nation wide would make the Interstate highway project decades ago pale in comparison.  It would likely even outdo rural electrification of the 30s and 40s


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r1lover
(@r1lover)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 39
2019-05-31 00:32:00  

There is also a snowball effect that a few deserters (converts?) can begin.  Everyone enjoys the company of like minded others.  So when your best hunting buddy and next door neighbor switches to a PCP and you have nobody to hang on the fence and share experiences with, you buy a PCP to keep the camaraderie going.  At the next FT or silhouette match you bring your new PCP and the only other springer guy there, whom you ordinarily partner up with, gets bored shooting the spring gun category alone and buys a PCP or finds another hobby, and so on.   Kind of like what happens after the first couple gets up and leaves following a party.


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Kingfisher1961
(@kingfisher1961)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 216
2019-05-31 11:43:07  

"But some people like springers if for no other reason than they are self-sufficient, unencumbered devices that recall a simpler time or a romp in the woods when you were younger. "

Bill....I couldn't agree more!  There are plenty of people who want what you're selling and most of them are honest decent folks.  Hang in there!  


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 433
2019-05-31 13:17:01  
Posted by: Kingfisher1961

"But some people like springers if for no other reason than they are self-sufficient, unencumbered devices that recall a simpler time or a romp in the woods when you were younger. "

Bill....I couldn't agree more!  There are plenty of people who want what you're selling and most of them are honest decent folks.  Hang in there!  

Since I was the one who mentioned doing fewer springer tunes lately, and getting less requests for quotes to do them, I think I should balance that with something that I think is probably happening.  By making that previous statement, and from reading some of the replies in this thread, I think I may inaccurately-contributed to the belief that springers are 'things of the past', 'over and done', 'not even worth mentioning any more', etc.  I think that conclusion would be taking things just a wee bit too far.

Having talked to and traded emails with many springer owners fairly recently, and even asking "How Many of You Are Still Shooting Springers?" here on the forum not long ago, (and getting lots of positive-affirmative replies to that question), I find it hard to believe that the springers of the world have been tossed into the lake or been relegated to the bottom of the heap in dark musty closets in the last 12 months or so.

(That thread, BTW, if you didn't see it):  https://airgunwarriors.com/airgun-talk/i-just-gotta-ask-how-many-springer-owners-are-still-shooting-them/

Add in this one factor: With many years of many posts, and even several YouTube videos, explaining in detail how to tune one of these things, I think that there are probably a lot more people who are doing their own tuning work these days.  Hence, I'm not getting requests regarding tuning those guns.  While I remain confident in my ability to squeeze a decent bit more out of one than the occasional DIY tuner, (no offense meant there--it ought to be that way with my having worked on so many of them), even if someone can do 50-75% of what I can do, that's still a pretty good amount of improvement to be had for $0 labor to a DIY owner.  I'm not too proud---a few may even be able to do almost all of what I can do.  The cost in dollars of the DIY springer tune is mostly buying tools if you don't have them already--including some specialty tools, tuning parts, and lubes, assuming no still-needed OEM parts get broken in the process.  And, of course the tool-cost portion of the process decreases the more tunes you do, in the way of what I'll call 'amortization'.

Besides, I didn't start out as someone who planned to tune anyone else's air gun--I started out like a lot of other DIY guys, by tuning my own guns for a couple of years, then branching out from there after mine had been taken apart so many times I was beginning to wear out threaded parts, etc (that's literal).  So, in other words, when it comes to tuning your own springer, I get it.

I've said more than once that I wouldn't want to take away the PCP's from those who prefer them, because they fit a couple of nice air gun niches that springers don't: Much more FPE if desired, not as much shooting technique required for good accuracy, and less wear and tear on shooters with bad shoulders and other misc. body parts that take a lot more of a beating to cock a springer than to pull-back a bolt on a magazine gun and load another round (and thus the advantage of PCP repeaters, too).  I've also said that if the day ever comes when physical limitations keep me from shooting springers, my order for MY PCP will be out of the door in nothing flat.

So, I don't think springers are dead just yet, but they're most certainly not the only game in town anymore.  I currently have a tuning project that is the real deal, because I already have in my possession the new replacement barrel which had to be purchased overseas.  Besides, I'm pretty sure I know of another spring-gun tuner who still gets a pretty-fair amount of work.  (He doesn't advertise for me by dropping my name, so I don't do it for him, either 🙂 ).

Thanks for reading.  And, by all means enjoy whatever it is you're shooting--springer, PCP, MSP, etc.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 133
2019-05-31 14:12:14  

MSP - now there's a harder sell. Prices for Sheridansseem to have leveled off at under $200. Nice guns and they have a place in my heart but I rarely shoot them. 

Another hobby of mine - vintage audio equipment from the 60s - 80s has also leveled off from where it was headed. You can find some nice deals on restored receivers, amps and speakers. Again, old guy stuff. Young people are content with earbuds or a small bluetooth speaker. I don't get it.

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 433
2019-05-31 14:37:50  

As far as MSP's, I was thinking of a few things that I read here recently.  Someone wanted to restore his Crosman 1400 (hope I have the model number right), and some have been making some comments about the Seneca Dragonfy.  The latter also goes for around $200.

As far as something costing too much, I'm probably as guilty as anyone about saying I don't understand how someone justifies spending what it costs to buy something like a PCP with its accessories, or anything else for that matter.  It's a pretty well known fact that if we really want something bad enough, unless we're literally living a life of abject poverty, we'll probably find a way to 'afford' it and get it.  I mean, who'd a thought I'd ever buy a springer that cost close to $500, plus scope, case, etc, let alone a couple of them?  But, I wanted one bad enough and I found a way.

Enter the words of my older, wiser-than-me cousin at this point (I just love this guy for this kind of thing):

I knew he traveled the original Route 66 back in the 60's, before it was all torn up.  About 15 years or so I was talking to him on the phone about that, and what he remembered about it.  He had some great stories.  I told him I knew there was only a fragment of it left, but I'd still like to see it.  He kind of interrupted, and said, "If you want to do it bad enough, you'll find a way to do it".  I said something like, "I have some real things in my life right now that I have to take care of that prevent me from being able to do that, not the least of which is getting the money to do it".  Him, "Well, take care of those necessary things first, then go do it.  If you want it bad enough, you'll find a way.  You will".

Footnote: This is an example of what I tend to call, "Optimism rearing its ugly head again".

Oh, yeah, audio stuff.  It sounds like you remember when a decent stereo speaker was at the very-least a good 3-way with a 12" woofer.  Me too.  I had a real nice 40 w amp/receiver, direct-drive turntable, graphic equalizer, great speakers, etc.  They make bass guitar amps nowadays with 10" speakers or whatever, but so far I haven't heard one that sounded quite the same as those big cabinets with two 15" bass speakers in them.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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straitflite
(@straitflite)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 73
2019-05-31 16:48:00  

Enjoyed reading this post. Of all the things I miss; I miss my youth the most. The only thing guaranteed is change. I notice many things that were in style way back, seem to find a new generation. What I noticed about airguns after a long absence is the way they have branched out in to not only categories, but the overwhelming models currently available! My son recently explained that you can get Beeman airguns cheap at Walmart! LOL

The internet expanded the sport and has further fragmented it. The old Yellow was busy 24-7. Remember the 'Brown' forum of Straightshooters? Of course Kevin (retired) and Craig are dealers so you could never post items for sale. Still, that forum was hopping and was the only other game in town...it is but a shadow of its former self. Before I would pay 80% of new for a used gun, I would rather buy new and start with a clean slate if I can find something that will yield the same performance. I'm not a collector but I still have a great appreciation for something that is valued as collectable. However, I have a great appreciation for something that still has the 'window' stickers as well vs something that has been personalized by another. As another pointed out in a previous post, a model that has been produced with modern tooling should be preferable. I believe that too. I also believe that a tune to ones preference is desirable. I notice that a couple of the big dealers now not only sell tune kits but offer installation service as well.

Add in this one factor: With many years of many posts, and even several YouTube videos, explaining in detail how to tune one of these things, I think that there are probably a lot more people who are doing their own tuning work these days.  Hence, I'm not getting requests regarding tuning those guns.  While I remain confident in my ability to squeeze a decent bit more out of one than the occasional DIY tuner, (no offense meant there--it ought to be that way with my having worked on so many of them), even if someone can do 50-75% of what I can do, that's still a pretty good amount of improvement to be had for $0 labor to a DIY owner.  I'm not too proud---a few may even be able to do almost all of what I can do.  The cost in dollars of the DIY springer tune is mostly buying tools if you don't have them already--including some specialty tools, tuning parts, and lubes, assuming no still-needed OEM parts get broken in the process.  And, of course the tool-cost portion of the process decreases the more tunes you do, in the way of what I'll call 'amortization'.

Ed, that all sounds extremely insightful! I'm a very capable individual but I have no doubt that I cannot make an airgun sing like you can sir -nor would I ever do enough to justify all the tooling that I'm sure you have. To offer my insight: Shipping is the biggest hurdle because it is a pain in the ass. That and turn around time. I wonder if a tuner could somehow ship the suitable packaging (prepaid by customer) with the necessary labels etc. to the customer for shipping? just a thought. 🤔 I mentioned turn around time because I have seen posts where guys have been without their gun for 2 years or more! Of course I have never, ever read that about your service. I recall a nameless elite tuner who even indicates on his website that if you have to ask about a timeframe then you should not even send it! If I thought I would be without any one of my guns for 6 months or more, I may as well be giving it away LOL. No service is worth that. I don't have any immediate plans for a tune but its nice knowing you are here.

I say tubed amps are the best and LP's are still king! Notice how black wheels are now in style? In my day it meant you were missing a hubcap. Alas gentlemen, these ARE the good old days! This forum is not what it used to be but there are several good and knowledgeable folks here.

Bo


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 433
2019-05-31 18:11:23  

Bo,

Two things.

As far as shipping safely, it's not that hard.  One CRITICAL piece of packing needs to be in the shipping container to MOSTLY eliminate the chance of stock breakage.  Some factory boxes already have it.  But, if you're shipping in something else it's easy enough to duplicate. 

I email a photo or two of what I'm talking about to all my customers before they ship.  (See the photos and some explanation at bottom of this post).

Next, there was a time years ago when my lead times had grown excessive, I'm embarrassed to say.  Why?  Simple--I accepted too many guns at once.  I fixed that, also years ago.  Now I'll keep one I'm working on and one in waiting for when that one is done--that's it.  It's a simple, common sense system and it works.  My apologies to any and all who ever had to wait on me when I did it the old way.  I may lose work, but I won't have people tearing their hair out and mad at me. 

I still add this qualifier that I ask everyone to consider: "Is this your ONLY air gun?" If so, tuning may not be right for you if you're going to count the hours, not weeks or days.

Now, to be fair I really can't speak for the other guys, but I've been around a while.   Seeing what I've seen, if your tuner is a 'bling specialist' who's going to be making you a custom stock, finishing it, manufacturing custom brass bits, AND AFTER ALL THAT tuning the working parts, I could see where a guy like that could need a good bit of extra time.  I specialize almost exclusively on tuning the working parts--repairing a broken stock or refinishing one is a rare exception for slower times--so I can turn my tunes over faster.

HTH.

OK, let's see what I can do with a few pics and some info here.

The most common rifle stock breakages that take place during shipping typically occur through the pistol grip.  They're due to inertia trying to 'flex' or 'bend' the stock if the package containing the air rifle is dropped with the trigger guard pointing straight down at the ground/floor.  The stock can't really bend, of course--instead, it breaks straight through the grain of the rifle.  And, that grain travels parallel to the length of the rifle, straight through the pistol grip (aka palm swell).

Placing a hard piece of packing beneath the trigger guard, in-between the guard and the bottom of the package/case, prevents the midsection of the rifle from trying to continue traveling in a downward direction if the package is dropped.  I added the second photo showing there's some height to the piece, to make it plain that it needs to be high enough, and sandwiched tightly in the case, so the trigger guard and rifle can't slip down beside it if dropped and thus still break.

The hard piece of packing can be, for instance, wadded-up newspaper and bubble wrap tightly wrapped in tape as shown in the first 2 photos, or a large, single rectangle of styrofoam as shown in the 3rd photo.  The 4th photo shows where I used only a tight, hard ball of newspaper and packing tape (it may be hard to see the tape, but it's definitely there.  The other 2 pieces of packing in the 4th pic are fine, yes, but it's the one beneath the trigger that's providing 99% of the protection).  You just want SOMETHING there to keep the rifle from trying to bend in half. 

Important: It's not obvious in any of these photos, but it's better if only one end of rifle can touch the bottom of the case, not both ends.  If the end of the barrel AND the bottom end of the butt stock were both touching the bottom of the case, and the rifle was dropped downward, the piece of packing in the middle wouldn't do quite as much when it comes to keeping the stock from trying to bend at the pistol grip.  You MIGHT still get a break (I know factory boxes often have end pieces, too, but the piece in the middle is perfectly-sized and perfectly-placed in those instances).

If some of you are looking at the black synthetic stock and thinking, 'that stock wouldn't break anyway, it's not wood so there's no grain to break', you might be right.  But, 1. I used my own RWS 34 P with black stock as a 'dummy' example for the photo to get the point across, and 2. With erring on the side of caution usually being the wiser course, I'd probably still use that strategically-placed piece of packing just to make sure there were no nasty surprises!

Packing Air Rifle to Ship Top DSCF2749

Packing Air Rifle to Ship Side DSCF2750

DSCF3093

First Fuji Dump Jan 1 2011 278   Safe Ship

Many factory shipping boxes have at least one folded piece of cardboard placed at the same location about midway down the stock, with cut-outs for the stock to fit all the way through both sides.  It was meant to serve the same purpose.  Have a good look at what's in the factory box--if you can tell that the stock can't go anywhere even if someone drops the box, you should be fine (many HW rifles have that, as do at least some of the Diana rifles).  The problem arises when you ship your rifle in a plastic gun case or homemade box instead, so that nice piece of factory cardboard is actually sitting out in your garage in the original factory box.

The last word: Using the method I've just described, I've never had a stock of an air rifle I sent to someone else broken in transit, and no one who's used this method has ever had their stock broken when they shipped it to me.  Using other methods, yes, a few people who sent their air rifle to me wound up with a broken stock when I opened their box.  One had the damage covered by the carrier's insurance, while the other guy had his claim denied.  If you think that separating the stock from the action is the end-all answer, it's a lot of extra trouble for me to disassemble it again and re-pack it before I send it back (I have to test the rifle as an assembled unit to make sure everything is as it should be).  And, it's still no guarantee the stock won't get broken.

A word about shippers and when you can't find someone to ship your air gun: I need to check the latest wording in the FedEx manual, but some years back a FedEx manager was nice enough to provide me the section of their own manual that dealt with the shipping of firearms.  In that section, not far from the beginning, there is a heading titled, "Prohibited Items".  And, the first several sentences under that heading say something very-close to this (I'm too lazy to look it up this second): "Air guns and pellet guns are not firearms and may be shipped the same as other items.  However, they are prohibited from being sent in International shipments".

I went to FedEx more than once with an air gun to be shipped within the USA and I was asked what I was shipping.  When I told them, more than once the person I was talking to said they couldn't ship it.  I told them I could show them in their own manual where it was OK, and I cited the sections I just listed.  They went in the back, looked in their manual, and came out and completed the transaction.  I never had one of those shipments detained in transit for any reason once it was so accepted.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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mike_nashville
(@mike_nashville)
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 42
2019-06-01 00:19:15  

Well,  guys I do hate to tell you but springers are dead, the PCP is in.  So now that you know that, send me your old springers,  your FWB 127's, 150's, 300's, your Weihrauch's and your old Beeman R (anything) and so on.  I will be nice enough to refund your shipping charges if they are reasonable.  What do you bet I don't get the first springer.  

Every time I watch Barrett Jackson Auctions I notice that even though there are a lot of older guys paying $60,000 - $300,000 for 50, 60 and 70's cars A lot of those buyers are also under 40 years old.  I wonder if exposure is not an issue with older air guns and keeping up the number of participants.  I noticed that the closest Air Gun show to me was Columbus Ohio and I live in Nashville TN.  I have been to several regular gun shows in Nashville, surrounding cities and also Atlanta area.  They are usually packed with all ages, gender and races.  With several PCP's out there under $300 a young buyer might not look twice at a $500-$650 FWB 127 springer, or a FWB 300 for $775.  I imagine a lot of the younger buyers have no knowledge of the quality and workmanship of these older German and English guns.  Pyramid Air shows a dozen PCP's $299 and under.  I think the younger AG buyers might need to be educated on Air gunning.  The streets are full of $60 to $120K autos driven by under 40 year olds.  Audi, BMW, Lexus and Mercedes are everywhere so younger people spend money once they see and know what they want to buy.

On the Advertising Fees, I agree that if you have a store and sell new merchandise you should pay to advertise but when your product is used, rebuilt and custom made by you it is a different story.  I will follow that up with saying it is different to me.  Who does it hurt to not allow someone to "show their wares" here on the new Yellow?  I venture to say it hurts us the viewers as much as the sellers.  Again, that is my views and obviously not that of others.

To close I would like to add that my last two purchases have been a Webley Eclipse/Beeman and a Walther LVG both very nice springers.  The one before those was a PCP (Air Arms S410).  Thats my 2¢ and not worth much more.  

Thanks  Mike


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 433
2019-06-01 00:26:40  
Posted by: mike_nashville

Well,  guys I do hate to tell you but springers are dead, the PCP is in.  So now that you know that, send me your old springers,  your FWB 127's, 150's, 300's, your Weihrauch's and your old Beeman R (anything) and so on.  I will be nice enough to refund your shipping charges if they are reasonable... 

...To close I would like to add that my last two purchases have been a Webley Eclipse/Beeman and a Walther LVG both very nice springers.  The one before those was a PCP (Air Arms S410).  Thats my 2¢ and not worth much more.  

Thanks  Mike

Well, I was going to make the exact same post, but I guess you're going to get them all now--well, maybe, better wait and see.  And, I consider your opinion to be worth more than 2 cents.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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