Do people really ha...
 

Do people really have issues with shooting a spring or ram gun?  

  RSS

sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 149
2019-01-18 23:20:25  

Looked at this video and cannot see you can shoot one of these guns accurately without a rest.  No solutions are offered for real world shooting.  

https://www.pyramydair.com/article/The_artillery_hold_June_2009/63

How are people doing it in this day and age of the PCP rifle?  Please send all vintage Beeman and Theoben guns my way so I can verify that your gun(s) are not affected by this dreaded affliction.  I have bought used guns that "cannot" group from previous owners.  Once they went through my accuracy checkpoints they shot just fine.  Not talking about rebuilding the gun either.  Cleaning the barrel, tightening the screws, and pellet selection were all that was needed.  Acquired some really choice pieces too where no issues existed.    

 

 


Quote
rich177
(@rich177)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 51
2019-01-19 08:07:35  

Some people have issues with life, others not so much.

Rick

Richard bassett


ReplyQuote
ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 437
2019-01-19 11:12:40  
Posted by: sonnysan

Looked at this video and cannot see you can shoot one of these guns accurately without a rest.  No solutions are offered for real world shooting.  

https://www.pyramydair.com/article/The_artillery_hold_June_2009/63

How are people doing it in this day and age of the PCP rifle?  Please send all vintage Beeman and Theoben guns my way so I can verify that your gun(s) are not affected by this dreaded affliction.  I have bought used guns that "cannot" group from previous owners.  Once they went through my accuracy checkpoints they shot just fine.  Not talking about rebuilding the gun either.  Cleaning the barrel, tightening the screws, and pellet selection were all that was needed.  Acquired some really choice pieces too where no issues existed.   

I feel certain this thread will get some interesting responses, but I would like to make sure we're all starting in the same place.  That is, I'm not 100% sure I understand your questions.   So...

Are you saying you do or don't think the artillery hold as described in the video is necessary when shooting a springer?

And, are you saying that shooting off a rest is the best way to obtain good accuracy, or not?

Please don't assume what my opinion is about these 2 items based on my questions.  I'm just trying to get a clearer picture.  Thanks.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


ReplyQuote
ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 228
2019-01-19 11:42:23  

Some folks just can't adapt to a springer (metal or gas) rifle's needs.  Might be that they trying to get the gun to shoot the way they want to hold it rather than holding the gun the way IT wants to be held.

When I have one that won't shoot well, I don't automatically blame the rifle. I'll do a few diagnostic groups (no matter how large)using widely different holds.

Might find a trend (which I did find) that can point you in a helpful direction.

A Benjamin Trail NP as an example. Going to have to give an occasional flier to the crappy trigger, but it was equally crappy for all the tests, so it pretty well evens out. Never has been a rifle known for great grouping...if anything, it's one that's often been a problem-child for shooters.

 

#1. is my term for the same Artillery Hold shown in the vid.
#5. is close to artillery, but fore end in a loose cupped hand and the middle of my forearm is resting (leaving 1/2 my forearm and cupped hand hanging out ahead of the rest).

So what ideas did I get from this?

1. Not the most accurate springer, and at least one flier in each 10 shots, but it showed potential I hadn't found in casual shooting.

2. Immediately there is a big difference in point of impact (harder the rifle is clutched the higher it hits). Got to keep that in mind out in the field...the more awkward your stance, the more likely you are to grip the rifle harder...and the more likely to cause a miss by that unintentional hold change.

3. Hold #2 isn't really inaccurate, even though the group ended up pretty high. That was a surprise.

4. The winner for this rifle (as most) was hold #1 (Artillery) with #5 very close behind.  #5 being more useful for me. Works fine sitting down and resting my forearm on my knee (will very often not have a real rest at hand, but I won't go out without my legs and ass attached).

 

A little trigger job and most of the fliers went away.

 

Will look for the photos, but did run the same kind of hold test with an inexpensive PCP (figuring I should test $ to $, rather than some expensive springer vs a chaep PCP, or an expensive PCP vs a cheap springer).

 

Did find a small difference in hold...not so much accuracy as in placement. Maybe 1/5th as much movement in groups and not as much difference in group size.  Reversed the results a bit, as the tight-holds tended to group lower rather than higher (but a miss is a miss...and from the same causes).


Ahab thanked
ReplyQuote
Teep
 Teep
(@teep)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 11
2019-01-19 12:48:33  

I've owned a lot of spring guns over the years and refuse to keep one that is hold sensitive.  Although it's fairly easy to adapt to a rifle when shooting targets it is a different matter when hunting with one.  Shooting from a different stance, angle, or just plain awkward positions when hunting require a rifle that is forgiving.  I could never use the artillery hold when hunting so I never practice that way either.  There are a lot of quality spring rifles with good triggers that are not very hold sensitive and make great hunters. 


Ahab thanked
ReplyQuote
sonnysan
(@sonnysan)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 149
2019-01-19 13:58:26  

What I'm trying to say is:  A specific holding technique, along with hold sensitivity, is a myth.  First, you don't sight in your gun on anything hard such as your knee or rifle rest filled with sand.  Don't let anything touch the barrel.  I'd even uninstall the sling swivel.  These items are all mentioned in the book below. 

I have this setup (no longer available) filled with poly pellets:

Sighting for Success

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Poly-Fil-Poly-Pellets-Weighted-Stuffing-Beads-6-lb-Bag/841447888?athcpid=841447888&athpgid=athenaItemPage&athcgid=null&athznid=PWVUB&athieid=v0&athstid=CS020&athguid=9fc2f500-c02-16867ac07990a8&athena=true

Need to know how to shoot a springer properly?  Just read and apply from here:

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/c1289/shop-by-department

There is no magic with spring or rams, I can guarantee you that.

 

 


ReplyQuote
Jim Bentley
(@jim-bentley)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 40
2019-01-19 18:10:33  

Yes, there are people that cannot shoot a spring gun. I've never really understood why, maybe because they never wanted to spend the time. I never found it to be a problem, more of  a minor challenge.

Sonny I'll take all of the surplus ones you get offers on 🙂


ReplyQuote
pistolero
(@pistolero)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 314
2019-01-19 20:48:41  

Okay, I'll bite!

I doubt there is a human alive that can shoot spring or gas-piston guns as well as PCPs... day in and day out. Long histories of competition results seem to agree. 

"No brag; just fact."- Will Sonnett


ReplyQuote
DavidEnoch
(@davidenoch)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 246
2019-01-21 07:30:16  

It is harder to shoot a gun that bounces around than it is to shoot one that barely moves.  It is harder to shoot a gun whose center of gravity moves while the pellet is still in the barrel.

Most of these springer quirks can be to some extent mitigated by maintaining your hold for a split second after the trigger has been pulled.  I use the artillery hold but allow part of the weight to bear directly on my tripod.  This has always worked for me.

I do agree with Pistolero that good shooters will shoot better with PCPs than with springers.  And, expecting PCP accuracy from your springer will lead to frustration.

David Enoch


Ahab thanked
ReplyQuote
Tim Ward
(@lefteyeshot)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 35
2019-01-31 10:49:24  

"springer quirks" That's why I like'em.

Without hope, without fear


ReplyQuote
Faucetguy
(@faucetguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 74
2019-01-31 11:53:07  

SPRINGERS have soul.  Not unlike a bow.  You impart energy to them and they respond with energy, to the delight of many.  😄

 

 


ReplyQuote
Tim Ward
(@lefteyeshot)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 35
2019-01-31 20:59:52  

 Spriners, the beauty simplicity.

Without hope, without fear


ReplyQuote
intenseaty22
(@intenseaty22)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 57
2019-01-31 21:15:53  

I have 3 Springers. They ALL will hit the same precision regardless of tight hold or artillery hold. For example: I was shooting my HW30S today. Held tightly and POI was at 1 Dot hold under at 14 yards. Held with Artillery hold, and every shot was at 0 holdover. Very consistent each time. I have replicated this exercise with all 3 of my guns: LGV .22, LGV .177, HW30 .177 Same results each time. Conclusion? Consistency is the name of the game. 


ReplyQuote
boscoebrea
(@boscoebrea)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 174
2019-01-31 21:43:29  

Viva La Difference      A springer  is harder,so what ,so is a Redhead,butt that is my opinion and I agree with what David said=follow-through is more important.


ReplyQuote
Packrat1947
(@packrat1947)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 2
2019-02-01 08:58:28  

Just get a RWS 54 or FWB 300 and you will have no more drama.  Right now is prime starling/grackle hunting season. 

 

I use the '54 .22 with a Harris bipod.  I never give a thought to position, shoulder pressure, grip holding, or rest compliance.  I can shoot standing leaning against a door jam, with bipod, sitting etc. No issues; just align the crosshairs and pull the trigger.

When you are shooting at game with smallish kill zones, you don't want to be fighting with the rifle. There are already enough ways to make an errant shot.

2019 01 25 15.45.11

If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, ....but it would deteriorate the cat." - Mark Twain Notebook, 1894


ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 244
2019-02-01 09:55:50  

I don't seem to, and hold has never been a big focus for me.

Granted, I'm after practical accuracy (did I hit it?) not targets or comp.

 

Most of the issues I have had with springers were related to quality, not what I was doing right or wrong.

There you have it, the world according to John.


ReplyQuote
josh3rd
(@josh3rd)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 94
2019-02-01 10:43:34  

I m a springer man through and through. Nothing against pcp's but they are not my flavor. I for one take trying to get my rifles hold down to the extreme. Meaning I'll move my support hand an inch at a time from the trigger guard out past the balance point and from that point I will see which one gives me the smallest groups. It's a love-hate relationship with Springer's. A whole other type of discipline. There is no gray area either. You either like them or you don't. You either to can shoot them or you can't. Yes there are some bad apples in the bunch be it the quality or the manufacturer or whatever but it is what it is and I love them


ReplyQuote
dcw
 dcw
(@dcw)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 58
2019-02-01 13:32:37  

thru the years, i have gone from springer to gas ram to PCP; i still have all three.

the two best 'springers' i own (RWS 54 and AA ProSport...both in .22) are as accurate as my PCP's.

my years in military shooting and archery competition and bow-hunting taught me that learning your "Form", constant training and attention to learning your particular chosen arm and it's characteristics, that in the end, determine performance and accuracy. 


Ahab thanked
ReplyQuote
ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 437
2019-02-01 15:16:28  
Posted by: dcw

thru the years, i have gone from springer to gas ram to PCP; i still have all three.

the two best 'springers' i own (RWS 54 and AA ProSport...both in .22) are as accurate as my PCP's.

my years in military shooting and archery competition and bow-hunting taught me that learning your "Form", constant training and attention to learning your particular chosen arm and it's characteristics, that in the end, determine performance and accuracy. 

I'd like to back up a little bit at this point and try to state what I feel is a bigger picture about the springer vs. PCP thing.

In my mind, shooting a PCP is all about being able to hit your target almost all the time.  You don't have to worry much about your technique, unless it's just terrible. So, if my primary means of putting food on the table was an air gun, the best way to do that in my opinion would surely be to use a PCP. There wouldn't be any days like with springer's where my failure to practice the proper technique resulted in myself or my loved ones going hungry. I don't mean to be taking a contrary stand with your comments, but in my mind there's just no argument that PCPs are going to be more accurate than springers on the whole--let's say, if you compare 100 shots in a row out of one of them versus 100 shots in a row out of the other.  (Maybe I should qualify that by saying, "when it comes to RECOILING springers, because a properly working RWS54 is in a class of its own IME).

Now, let me introduce something else. I hunted with springers, but it was never to provide me a needed food source. I've shot POPs before, and they're really great. But there was an additional level of satisfaction that came from taking game with a springer that I couldn't get from a PCP because the same level of technique was not required.   Stretching this idea a little further, I think the same level of satisfaction could also be applied to shooting paper targets with a springer because you have to do more things right than you do with a PCP in my experience.

There's that old thing that used to bounce around in Beeman literature about the fact that springer technique also happens to be the same technique that rewards you in the use of high-powered firearms, and I've found it to be true as being a good way to practice for hunting big game with your powder burner. But that's not as big a deal as it used to be either. You know where I'm going, I'm talking about the fact that in later years much more powerful PCPs came to the fore, and now they can also be used for taking larger game. The very first ones I remember weren't in that power class. But those days are a thing of the past.

I've yet to purchase a PCP, mostly because of the initial cost investment, and also the paraphernalia required to maintain and operate them. But I still sort of have one on my wishlist. But for now, I'm perfectly satisfied with a two nice springer's I have and the challenge they present me when I try to do some pinpoint shooting. If I shoot good targets, I feel like I've really accomplished something. 

By the way, both of my springers are very-nicely tuned, so it's not as if my equipment is unnecessarily fighting me. Still, a springer is a springer, and they're just not the same as a PCP in that regard.

Those are some main things that come to mind for me in regard to this subject.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


ReplyQuote
daveshoot
(@daveshoot)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 61
2019-02-02 07:56:21  

Well, I have some springers. When I need a sure kill on a varmint I have PCPs ready to go, but I enjoy shooting springers more. I have certainly kilt a share of vermin with springers but once I got the tank, it is just too easy to terminate them silently and effectively with a PCP.

I guess PCPs are my tools, and springers are my hobby. I'd agree that the spring guns seem to have more soul, and the classics have a level of workmanship that I have never seen on a tank gun. 


ReplyQuote
Ahab
 Ahab
(@ahab)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 6
2019-02-08 12:53:23  

I too have springers/gas piston stuff. My tank guns all have workmanship that equals or exceeds my classics.


ReplyQuote
ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 228
2019-02-09 11:54:17  

 

MAybe it is becasue I love the breed...maybe (in the sense of animisium, where inanimate objects actaully can think) they kind of sense that.

(OK...don't love the breed as much as I once did....exposure to the recoiless versions of springers or to PCP's tends to make your heart stray.)\

I still try to keep some ability at shooting springers/gas rams by practicing. NEVER understimate the power or practice, just don't think you can pick up a springer from a long lay off and do well with it.

So practice. I will TOTALLY agree, that practice with crappy-results just suxs. But go with it, the goal is that 3 or 4 practice sessions shows improvenet. May take a month or two of serious daily practice to get to a "plateau".
Figure out your ability to keep all the shots on the viatal area of a critter ( which is a lot smaller than the whole critter).

Shoot inside the range that lets you get near 100% shots inside that "off switch:

If that's too close a range, you need one of three things:

1. A lot more practicve.
2. A change in pellets.
3. A change (more conciously uniform) way of holding the vibrating/recoiling little SOB

(I do NOT THINK that a new more expensive springer/gas ram is going to automatically make you're kill range farether. It might with enough oif #1,2,3...thebut it likely will not until you get #1,2,3 in control.)

 

 

Bottom line:

 

Getting to where you can shoot springers/gas rams well is not for "slackers"....you have to work at it.

 

 

And thinking about that...I'm over due for a springer practice session.


ReplyQuote
classicalgas
(@classicalgas)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 70
2019-02-13 11:28:40  

"Once they went through my accuracy checkpoints they shot just fine."   That  may be, depending on your criteria for consistency. As pointed out above, the  people who compete on a world class level have discovered that *no one* can shoot a springer as well as a pcp, when hundreds of shots  are compared. Few even try to shoot springers against PCP's, certainly not when there's anything important on the line.

Sure, if you practice with one particular, fairly forgiving springer, daily,  you can get good groups( most of the time, from a given position) You'll never match the results you'd get with a pcp of similar quality under the same conditions, though.


ReplyQuote
RedFeather
(@redfeather)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 72
2019-02-13 20:38:29  

Springers have to be viewed within the bounds of their limiting factors. Are they target rifles? No, not for the last fifty-plus years. Are they sporting or field guns? Yes. An analogy might be to the .30-30 lever action. Over a hundred years old and still filling the freezer. One thing that has left me scratching my head is the consistent drive with some folks to make these into surgical tools. Good luck with that. Enjoy them and employ them within their limits, meaning they are not going to be sub-moa nor long-range numbers like PCP's. Kind of like shooting muzzle loaders.

 

As to the "artillery hold", well, some guns require a soft hold while others, unaccountably, do not. Use what works. (Personally, I've never been able to make the connection to artillery [the French 75?] but the name has stuck.)


ReplyQuote
ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 437
2019-02-13 21:16:55  
Posted by: RedFeather

Springers have to be viewed within the bounds of their limiting factors. Are they target rifles? No, not for the last fifty-plus years...One thing that has left me scratching my head is the consistent drive with some folks to make these into surgical tools. Good luck with that.

I was kind of surprised, not to read your comment, but to read that it was you who made it.  That's because I thought I remembered some of your previous posts regarding the support of certain springers as, potentially, fairly-precision instruments.  My memory may be failing me.  No matter though. 

I gave your comment a few quick seconds to sink in and found a way I could agree with you, no problem at all.

Let's add 3 words to your comment and I think there's no room for argument.

(Regarding springers). 'Are they "the ultimate in" target rifles? 

That 3-word modification changes everything.  Although springers have been and are still being used to shoot great targets, including in scored competitions, the "ultimate" target rifles are PCP's, hands down.  That HAS to be true.  While many springers can be made to be nearly-motionless in firing behavior, most PCP's are inherently-fully-motionless.  It's an advantage that can't be discounted or overcome (Motionless Giss rifles can do great things at 10 or 20 meters, but it's a limitation from which PCP's don't suffer).  All other parts of the rifles being equal in quality and precision, triggers included, PCP's are going to win. 

With that said, some guys are still having a great time using their springers as impressively-successful target rifles, within certain yardage constraints, like shooting tiny 5-shot cloverleaf targets at 50 yards.  Let's not tell them it can't be done--we might confuse them, AND ruin all their fun!    

(I hope this comes across like I meant it because I'm basically agreeing with what you said).

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


ReplyQuote
xposo
(@xposo)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 5
2019-02-14 01:43:57  
Posted by: boscoebrea

Viva La Difference      A springer  is harder,so what ,so is a Redhead,butt that is my opinion and I agree with what David said=follow-through is more important.

I learned that when I first started shooting springers for the first time. In fact, I read about follow through from a post on the original yellow years ago. I practiced daily, then one day, boom, I got the hang of it. I also have two rams, and they’re no different from my springers, other than the snappy recoil. Follow through is important for accuracy, even helped me with my power burners. 


ReplyQuote
Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 244
2019-02-14 02:16:50  

Raccoons have trouble with springers, using a PCP would have been no trouble at all.

Sprinting on the bicycle, one neighbor shining a flashlight up a tree, a whole group gathered round him.

Trouble was, 40ft up a tree hiding in Spanish Moss and only two green eyes to be seen, 30 yard total range.

10pm, one Supermag, one hand holding a flashlight, one shoulder jammed against a fence post, one green eye, one paw holding on, one more chance as it crawled back into a crotch.

One more shot at one more eye shining through the moss, one for me, and none for the coon.

 

If I'd shot it in the arse? Never.

If I couldn't hit the eyeballs? Maybe.

If I'd taken the .22 Marauder? Oh yeah!

If the neighbors knew I wasn't shooting whimpy "Gamo guns"?

If they didn't hear the shot, but saw me with what appeared to be a firearm?

I might have more problem without springers ... more than 13lb.ft

 

True, my third shot would likely have been a flier, but most critters are only equipped with two eyes...

There you have it, the world according to John.


ReplyQuote

  
Working

Please Login or Register