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Crosman Challenger Value Question?  

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DonC
 DonC
(@donc)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 100
2019-04-09 14:27:16  

A gun store near me has a Crosman Challenger with sights for sale for $165.00. It is not PCP, but setup for CO2. The web searches I find show the PCP Challenger with sights for around $600. Is this CO2 kit worth $165.00?

TIA


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 459
2019-04-09 14:39:14  

I thought the new ones were a dual fuel kind of set up. Could go HPA or Co2. Without sights around $600. If you can pick one up for $165 the sights alone are worth that.

I have the HPA model and have to give it high marks for it's accuracy.


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-09 14:55:49  

Buy it, if nothings wrong with it, such a great deal!!!

I  think they must be selling a Crosman Challenger 2000 which is the one that is like a Benjamin with barrel soldered onto the CO2 tube with the Crosman in house barrel. I would buy it if it functions properly but it isn't going to be as accurate as a current Crosman Challenger PCP with Lothar Walther barrel.

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Crosman_Challenger_2000/202

 

HA


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-09 14:56:49  

It would be worth between $200 and $300 if everything is included and works perfect in very good to excellent condition.

HA


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DonC
 DonC
(@donc)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 100
2019-04-09 17:00:46  

Thanks guys. Yes, it is the Model 2000, CO2 rifle. I understand it stopped production in 2002. This rifle for sale is new in the box. I guess I'll buy it for fun. My other 10 meter rifle is a Feinwerkbau 603. It will be fun to compare these 2 extreme price point different rifles.


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-09 17:03:42  

HOLY COW BNIB? Thats a no brainer!

Well at least you don't have to PUMP IT for each shot.

GOOD SCORE!

 

HA


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-09 17:06:02  

And I'll buy it from you when you are done playing with it.

HA


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-04-09 21:27:42  

Still have the Challenger 2002....it's an odd critter. Other than the name,nothing about it is like the Challenger 2009 PCP(although the stock is in the same style).

Think of a typical Benjamin/Sheridan pumper...same brass/bronze tube, brass barrel soldered onto the top,pretty much the same trigger system as the latest  392/397's (with a slight bit of refinement), running on a single 12gr. co2 rather than a pumper.

Does have a scope grooved receiver and a simple T-bolt system (which Crosman SHOULD HAVE KEPT on their Challenger 2009 PCP rather than that ball bearing locked screw up prone system).

Actually, with enough work, got mine to shoot decently.....don't remember what I bought the rifle for (likely back in 2009 or 2010) but once I got it shooting right, has seen a use.


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 459
2019-04-09 22:05:13  

What LDC is on your Challenger?


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 631
2019-04-09 23:10:57  

well the Blue book states there was a 2000 Challenger Mfg,  2000-2001 and a CH2000 Challenger  2001-2009

the first in 100% 400.00 and second in 100% 475.00

the first model came in all sorts of color matte black or gloss black, blue, dark blue, red, silver or grey 

they shoot at 485 fps 36.25 inch and about 7 lbs 

is it bulk fill ???? looks like it 

Mike


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-10 00:06:53  

They (CH2000) use standard 12gram Co2 available just about anywhere and if running properly should deliver a very decent shot count like 60 or more believe it or not. That gun was supposed to be Crosman's most accurate competition target gun at that time until it was replaced by the CH2009 PCP.

Crosman had stopped its production to develop a more worthy competitor to the Daisy 887 and 888  then 753 and 853s which spanked the CH2000 silly even with their crappy triggers back in the day due to their Lothar Walther barrels.

I like the stocks which are used on the Crosman target guns, recently purchased a CH2009 stock for my 177 Benjamin Fortitude along with a Gen1 Marauder trigger group and proper sear shim spacer. I have a custom machined 177 Lothar Walther barrel for a single shot Benjamin Discovery which will probably need additional machining for the Fortitude's multi shot breech.

It is just too bad the Fortitude multi shot breech does not directly fit onto the CH2009 action (now wouldn't that be a REALLY ACCURATE REGULATED FUN GUN!).

 

HA


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-04-11 17:39:30  

The Challenger 2009PCPC really doesn't want to take an LDC. The barrel ends way back before the end of the air tube (front sight base/brake extends the length to about even with the end of the capped air tube).

So I made a simple adaptor from a 1 2/3" lenght of .22 Crosman barrel. Machiend one end to be tight into the front hole of that sight base,and left the other end be normal Crosman diameter. Glued one end into the sight base and treated the other end like a normal Crosman barrel.

Belive the LDC at that time was a TKO...have used a Rocker1 on it as well (vasically,with that extention set up, could ujse anything that grub-screws to a Crosman diameter barrel).

As for the Challenger 2000 CO2...never did have the reputation for real match grade acccuracy....remember, match shooters are very accuracy minded, so 8-ring sized groups (on an official 10meter target) aren'tgood enough. Was about right,more a 8-ring rifle than a 10-ring rifle.

With a bit of work (which yours may not need) got it more like a 9-ring rifle (which is pretty small groups at 20 yards...about as far as I'dshoot a 4-4.4foot pound rifle).

Work done. Looks like a lot, but it cost nothing but time/testing.

1. Polished the "chamber"to remove a burr at the transfer port.

2. Straightened the bolt probe (which was seating pellets off center....can tell that from looking at the BASE of recovered pellets). Careful as can be here....brass tend to break easier than bend.

3. Was a bit see-saw in the stock with the holding screw loose....so I bedded it to be still/stable when just resting in the stock.

4. Trigger really needed a little work....to be fair, belive there was a min. trigger pull for some youth competitions, so they didn't work too hard at a lighter trigger. Pretty much like a Benajmin 392/397 trigger system, so any tune-tips for those would work.

5. Reseal it. Not a lot of tutorials about the old Crosman 2000, but found it reminded me a lot of the Sheridan F. It does take the old style valve:

Can see where some of the power reduction/long shot count on a single 12gr. comes from. That'sa tiny treansfer port in the valve....and you really can't easily get to the one between the air tube and the barrel.

6. Test a lot of pellets. This one really does like the 7.33gr. JSB RN (or AA version) better than any wad cutter i've tried....not as easy to score, but smaller clusters.

7.Never really sure if the barrel I got (a brass one soldered to the airtube in typical Crosman MSP fastion) was a one-off freak or not.

Really didn't discover the oddness of the barrel until I recrowned it (which really didn't help accuracy any..evidently the orginal crown was better than it looked).
With the original crown removed, it sure looks like an odd Polygon type rifleing system.

original:

Recrown:

And the pellets show it:

8. They all seem to have such a weak 12gr. strike that they just barrely put a pin-prick in the 12gr. Can actually hear mine refilling the valve body though that pin-prick 12gr. for about 1/8th 1/4th second after a shot. Considering it's a single shot, the valve's co2 is replaced by the time before you can load it.

9. Valve stem of the Challenger 2000 is a little longer shanked (the brass part) than a 2240 stem, but the 2240 will work.


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-11 19:52:25  

Rick, I spoke with DonnyDu (DonnyFL) and he thinks the Discovery/Maximus LDC 1/2unf x20 adaptor would fit the Challenger 2009 but I haven't ordered it yet. If you install a P-Rod .080TP without having to do any other mods to your Challenger 2009, you should get close to 12fpe.

 

HA


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-04-11 20:14:47  

Just to be clear about the problem with the 2009 PCP version and LDC's.

 

With the square front sight mount/brake off the rifle, the barrel is short:

 

So I figured, what better adaptor than the front sight base itself, which also allows you to use the sight base as a sight base (so you can keep on using the match sights if you wish).

On that "nub", could mount any grub-screw attached LDC made for a Crosman diameter barrel.

 

 

 


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-11 20:26:38  

What a neat idea! AKA TKO at the end?

 

HA


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-04-11 21:10:19  

The above picture was a TKO...measured a touch over 3/4" in diameter (more like .755").

Curently, it's a Rocker 1 that seems to be just a touch under 1" in diameter (more like .988").

 


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 631
2019-04-11 22:04:37  

Ribbonstone can you tell me the front sight mount is plastic or aluminum  and the barrel on the 2009 is  7/16 OD and does the mount have much meat on it to enlarge the ID

it a pieces and parts and how the could be elsewhere 

and do you think a Hammerli 850 and a CH2009 would be a dead heat on target with target sights

thanks 

mike

 

Mike


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 459
2019-04-11 23:11:36  
Posted by: Hotair

Rick, I spoke with DonnyDu (DonnyFL) and he thinks the Discovery/Maximus LDC 1/2unf x20 adaptor would fit the Challenger 2009 but I haven't ordered it yet. If you install a P-Rod .080TP without having to do any other mods to your Challenger 2009, you should get close to 12fpe.

 

HA

Like Ribbonstone mentioned with the short barrel the airtube is just in the way. I didn't quite get how the sights gave it an extension? Here is my Euro Maximus with a TKO and the end of my stock Challenger.

max

The Maximus is nice for the price break. Did trigger work on it. But it still gets served by the Challenger.

[​IMG]

[​IMG]

[​IMG]

[​IMG]

 


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-12 01:30:33  
Posted by: pluric
Posted by: Hotair

Rick, I spoke with DonnyDu (DonnyFL) and he thinks the Discovery/Maximus LDC 1/2unf x20 adaptor would fit the Challenger 2009 but I haven't ordered it yet. If you install a P-Rod .080TP without having to do any other mods to your Challenger 2009, you should get close to 12fpe.

 

HA

Like Ribbonstone mentioned with the short barrel the airtube is just in the way. I didn't quite get how the sights gave it an extension? Here is my Euro Maximus with a TKO and the end of my stock Challenger.

max

The Maximus is nice for the price break. Did trigger work on it. But it still gets served by the Challenger.

[​IMG]

[​IMG]

[​IMG]

[​IMG]

 

I actually (currently) never shoot my Challenger 2009 (PCP)because its too loud without any LDC at the moment.

Yea the LW barrel on the Challenger should pretty much spank the Maximus with its factory Crosman barrel for sure just like mine does, did you install a larger TP in yours? I recently bought a 177 Fortitude and shot it for a little while after the trigger work and it seemed to have better accuracy than my Discovery with its factory Crosman barrel and after sighted in, 2 for 2 on winged critters at 45 and 48 yards and await a Gen1 Marauder trigger group with shim spacer for it. I have a LW barrel on another 177 Discovery with B&M Multishot breech with a Gen1 Marauder trigger group and that one gives the Challenger a real run for its money and I bought an OEM Challenger 2009 stock for it and haven't tried to install it yet (I'd be pretty bummed if it didn't directly drop in).

I would confidentally say that it is well worth installing a machined LW barrel onto your Maximus if you want the match accuracy you crave as I do. The way I see it, cost wise, if you enjoy and appreciate it, then it is worth whatever it cost as long as you don't sell it and most importantly, it will hit whatever you aim at all of the time no excuses.

I wouldn't mind trying to locate a pair of side lever breeches for both of my Fortitudes because they are kinda on the harder than average side to cock.

HA


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pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 459
2019-04-12 09:08:44  

My Challenger is box stock. It didn't come with diopter sights so I scoped it. It will out shoot my 10 meter AirForce Edge. The Maximus was to be for a grandkid. She will come over and shoot it once in while. Even at nine she mentioned how the trigger was better on the Challenger. 😀  I tried to super sear it and install a Baker trigger. Spoke with the owner and was assured the upgrades would fit. Nope. Ended up polishing what was there and was able to thread a hole in the trigger to install a grub screw to make a spring stop like the stock trigger. Did make the trigger better. My biggest complaint with the gun is I find it hard to load. Between the small pellet and the shallow channel we both found it awkward to get a pellet in. I give her something with a magazine now. I don't plan on messing with it anymore. 

[​IMG]

It is the lower tuned Euro model and with a moderator just silent. I like that.

This was a 10 shot spread. 

[​IMG]

 

Speaking of quiet, I was at Utah Airguns last night and a guy was shooting  a Flash Pup moderated. they had just got DonnyFL adapters in so I put a Tatsu on it. All hammer noise now. 🙂 It was late so I was shooting with a light with no guilt at all about noise. I really like quiet guns.

Flash a

 


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-04-12 16:56:42  

Of what I have on hand running on co2, do haver a couple that will out group the Challenger 2000 even after all the work was done (and the trigger is a nice crisp 1 1/4 pound). I rather like 12gr. guns...had enough of bulk filling co2. Personally, If I'm going to deal with a tank and fill gear, may as well go PCP....and the cost of AirSource is just not to my liking.

HAve also given up on power with co2...not that you can't, just that it's a race you're going to lose. Lucky enough to have some PCP's,and if power is a goal, would certainly choice compressed air over compressed CO2....so I don't push them too hard.

So I've pretty well stuck to 12gr. versions (either single 12gr. or dual 12gr.) as the best choice for me....and pretty well kept them at low to moderate (but efficient gas use) speeds.

This is the most accurate 12gr. CO2 I have (as you might expect). Problem (for me) is that my wife took one try with it and declared it "HERS"....so I only get to maintain it(and occasionally shoot it when she's out).

Did buy this version of the Hammerli 850 (was a short run of rifles for AirGun Depot) that does run on 12gr. It will averge better than the Crosman 2000.

And this plain-jane looking QB got converted to 5mm (HW barrel) and is in the running for most accurate 12gr. This one I did slightly push, looking for something more like Sheridan speeds/energy....so about 12 foot poounds seemed about right.

As for the Challenger 2009 PCP, it actually can hang in there with the best PCP's I have at short range (25 yards)...the difference is really small...like a couple of hundreds of an inch (call it 1/50th of an inch for a long term average).

So the buggers can shoot....but the AA 200T and AA s200 shoot just a little better (and cost about the same to buy).

One thing on the CHallenger 2009 PCP I really do NOT like.
The PCP's t-handle bolt system is a "cluster" waiting to happen...and sooner or later, it will happen. The simple t-handle of the co2 Crosman 2000 was the design they SHOULD have kept, the complicated ball-bearing locked t-handle on the 2009 PCP is the biggest pOINT AGAINST the PCP Challenger.

The fact that it's really long is a given....should not be an issue as anyone who buys one would have to expect that. The 2K fill is aslo a given,but you can actually set it up to manage something close to 90-100 good shots per fill (low powered shots....but for the intended use,power isn't the goal).

Really do not think it is as good a value (at today's prices) as an AA 200T....certainly not in terms of construction.


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-04-12 18:28:16  

Was a little too late in the day (for lighting) for the old Crosman 2000 Co2 and it's match sights.....and it has been in storage from last August 2018 (so something like 8 months of just sitting there).

Resealed it with the best O-rings I could fine something like 5-6 years past....has been in storage with a partial charge of 12gr. co2 from about August 2018.

Still had co2 in the system, although I cannot swear it took as many dry-fire shots to empty than when it was put away (but at least it didn't leak all of the CO2 if it leaked at all).

From past experience, don't expect better than a .30" average for 4- 5 shot groups at 22.5 yards with the "match style" sights ( which is pushing the range for a 4.5 Foot pound .177 rifle).

Anyway....got me interested enough to dig the old girl out of the safe(s) and give her a try.....but a fair try come tomorrow\ when the light is better suited to match sights (And again, at 22.5 yard range as before).


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 238
2019-04-13 14:50:09  

Really a poor day to shoot targets, even at 25 yards.

Wind is kicking up real strong (gusts to 30MPH) and anywhere from 4 o'clock to 7 o'clock (that shifting tail wind that drives you nuts).
Both shooting.177 7.3gr. AA pellets,both tuned down to low speeds (about 540-550fps...4.8-4.9 foot pounds).
Figured it would be equally bad between two rifles, so while they could not do their best, would at least be uniformly handicaped.
Gave up on the match sights and scoped each. While different scopes, kept the power at 4X for each to make it "even".
Moved the target back to a measured 25 yards (basically a rag suffed cardboard box with a brick in it to kieep the wind from knocking it down).
Same basic target (the white center is 1/2")...although I'm running out of printer ink.
Tried my best to only get on the trigger when the wind was in a lull between gusts.

The wind won this round.


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Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-04-13 20:00:57  

You should try Crosman 7.4gr pointed pellets in the 250 count tins from Walmart.

You may get a pleasant surprise!

HA


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