CO2 Pistol Marksman...
 

CO2 Pistol Marksmanship Technique versus Firearms Technique?  

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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 52
2019-10-05 12:58:08  

Greetings Airgun Warriors!

I have very recently purchased a 2300KT from the Crosman Custom Shop.  I have been investigating proper technique for target shooting with said pistol.  I found an awesome video by a former Navy Seal and firearms instructor on pistol marksmanship.  I also work at a prison, so I have some pretty high powered help from the officers - these officers score in the high 90's with the standard issue Glock 22 (.40 caliber sidearm).  But those techniques focus a lot on stabilizing the pistol due to expected firearm recoil.  This actually involves a lot of muscular control.  I find that with a CO2 pistol, the technique is to almost "float" the gun, with a definite finesse approach, as compared to the brute force needed to counteract firearm recoil.  These two approaches are very dissimilar.

So, before I sink countless hours practicing <gasp and barf> incorrect technique, I want to ask if anyone has video links, text links and just solid instruction on proper technique for target shooting with a CO2 pistol.

I have been using the isosceles stance at the standard 10M distance, and all the breathing techniques I learned decades ago.  I also use the Samurai philosophy - never think about hitting the target :: if you focus on, and achieve, excellent technique, you'll hit the target as a consequence.  This presupposes that I know what proper technique is!

Thank you in advance for any help you may offer!


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 643
2019-10-05 14:02:29  

so 2 handed holds---- the 2 main ones are isosceles and weaver, so which one is better 

that might be a question for a competition race gun shooter  

my choice has always been weaver, it is a stronger stance which in turn steady the upper body 

you see the weaver stance has two main components, the strong hand is pushing and the weak hand is pulling, at the same time your strong side shoulder is rotated forward , back straight 

and all you should be looking at are your sight picture 

so steady upper body and sight picture is your goal in 2 handed shooting 

also isosceles stance is for shooting at body of mass and we see how well that work 

Mike


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pistolero
(@pistolero)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 321
2019-10-06 01:00:52  

Having captured many state and national air-pistol silhouette and field target titles, several with Co2 pistols, been an avid firearms and air pistol shooter for a half-century, and now experiencing excellent success in Steel Challenge (firearms) competitions, I'm extremely well-qualified to comment on your post.

I've been with the Weaver stance almost from the get-go, and am admittedly of the "if it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT" camp. And until some of the vast majority of competitive shooters that have abandoned the Weaver stance in favor of the latest fad can beat me, I'll stay with my antiquated, well-perfected Weaver form.

As for breathing techniques and enlightened philosophies, perhaps they might help more progressive shooters close the gap on the old Neanderthal that pays no attention whatsoever to such intellectualisms... for fear of adversely affecting a half-century of strict adherence to the timeless teachings of such handgun forefathers as Jeff Cooper and Elmer Keith.

BTW, I've found nothing in said teachings necessitating the latest, greatest, highest-tech equipment, gadgets, gizmos and shooting aids. Consequently I've saved a small fortune in equipment investments... with no recognizable adverse affects on results.      

Besides Weaver, I've always used the loosest, most relaxed form I can muster; even with big-bore and magnum pistols. That being counter-productive in speed-shooting competition like Steel Challenge, I've found old habits... VERY OLD HABITS, hard to break for my relatively new pistol-shooting passion.

Occasionally I try to practice a firmer grip and leaning into the gun in order to impose better recoil control in speed-shooting competitions. But invariably my relaxed Weaver technique returns in the heat of competition...

And prevails.

"Your results may differ."  

"No brag; just fact."- Will Sonnett


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 244
2019-10-06 09:07:50  

Quick version: different goals

Shooting a recoiling self loading pistol that recoils quickly need a way to recover from that recoil and not have that recoil shift your grip on the pistol. Same with the few folks still shooting DA ccenterfire revolvers. Holding it that tightly two handed does help achieve that....and if you are using a co2 pistol as a home trainer for firearms, would likely practice with that kind of hold even though there is no reason to with a single shot air pistol.

Slow fire rim-fire type shooting is closer to airgun shooting, although they mostly shoot one-handed. No real recoil, no real need for rapid recoil recovery, your grip just has to be strong enough to keep the pistol stable for sighting.

Single shot or manual repeater"non recoiling"pistol (OK...it does recoil in a Newtonian way, but it's so slight we call it recoiless any way) is going to require you break you grip stance after each shot anyway in order to load it or operate the bolt/side lever. Likely have to juggle around a 2240 and shift your right hand'sgripto load it if you are a right handed shooter (as the bolt is also on the right side). Basically, there is no real need for a "combat" or a rapid fire grip/stance.


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marflow
(@marflow)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 643
2019-10-06 14:01:02  

but the weaver stance is all about being steady, it is a upper body frame that is strong and steady 

sure it was designed for heavy recoiling pistols 45ACP or snappy 9mm 

but then again use what you what, it doesn't affect my shooting at all  

Mike


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Cruisers
(@cruisers)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 55
2019-10-06 17:12:40  

@pistolero

Ron,

What is the Weaver stance?


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Noah_1325
(@noah_1325)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 41
2019-10-06 19:26:29  

Exactly what I was thinking. In the time it took me to post this message I could have looked it up but would rather hear/see it from members of this forum. 


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pistolero
(@pistolero)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 321
2019-10-06 20:18:42  

My photo pretty well illustrates the Weaver stance. Rather than facing the target, stance is about 45 degrees toward the shooter's strong side, almost a 90 degree break in the support-arm elbow, and a slight, natural break in the strong-arm elbow. Enlarge my photo for greater insight.

"No brag; just fact."- Will Sonnett


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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 52
2019-10-07 16:53:53  

I'm certainly no Olympic contender, in fact, that is the point of this post: to get a lot better.   But unlike the success that pistolero has achieved using Weaver, I was trained with the isosceles stance from my teen years.  I cannot get comfortable with Weaver.  And I certainly don't need the anti-recoil qualities for my CO2 pistols.  Pistolero has proven that Weaver works, at least for his applied technique.  And you can't argue with success!

What I do know, the officers at my prison use isosceles, and for good reason.   Weaver exposes body surfaces not covered by body armor.  This is the reason Weaver has been abandoned, even though it handles recoil better than isosceles.  In theory, isosceles is a more accurate stance, and also a more maneuverable platform ... in theory.  So it lends itself to law enforcement well.

For me, I'd like to give Weaver another try to see if that stance will help stabilize my gun better.  In the long run, I can hit creek rats with consistency, and maybe that's good enough.  But it sure feels beneficial to pratice with 10m targets as that translates into the field.


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ribbonstone
(@ribbonstone)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 244
2019-10-07 20:08:18  

Isosceles will work with any low recoil pistol in rapid fire.....will work with moderate recoiling self loaders/DA revolver sin rapid fire...but it kind of sucks at really heavy recoiling pistols that tend to rock your erect stance back.

 

Basically the difference between Weaver/ Chapman/Isosceles is the foot placement/body bend, and body angle to the target.  Heavier the recoil or the more rapid recovery from recoil, the more body mass we put in line behind the pistol.

 

Actuylly, the difference is more in body angle/foot placement than in hand grip.

 

 

 

 


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DavidEnoch
(@davidenoch)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 272
2019-10-08 07:30:19  

All this argument over Isosceles vs Weaver but no one is answering his question.  I see a lot of experts recommending drawing and dry firing your weapon as a daily or weekly exercise.  I normally see it recommended to pick a spot on the wall and draw and try to get the gun to come up on the target.  A CO2 pistol that mimics your firearm's weight, trigger pull and size would be good for this.  Of course, you now need a backstop and target.   It does give the extra feedback of showing where your shot hit and some recoil.

On the Isosceles vs Weaver or Modified Weaver, the Isosceles method is better for acquiring your target while drawing.  It will also tame recoil better.  I was trained at Texas Pistol Academy with the Modified Weaver and in any kind of stressful situation I automatically go to the Modified Weaver.  I had a Colt Delta Elite for a while and that sharp 10mm recoil really convinced me of the advantage of the Isosceles grip.  From what I understand Texas Pistol Academy now teaches the Isosceles grip.

David Enoch


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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 52
2019-10-09 08:15:18  

Here is a link to a very informative article I found on pistol stances.  I hope this brings some insights for the members here.  This article has answered many of my questions, but is still focused on firearms and handling the relative recoil.  I'm going to play with this stuff to see if I can adapt these techniques for my CO2 pistols.  Dirty Harry with a .44 magnum, not so much.


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boscoebrea
(@boscoebrea)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 180
2019-10-09 14:58:33  

"It's all relative"and don't be surprised your CO2 kicks once-in-a-while and you think to yourself I jerked!...

   When shooting powder burners I use both holds depending on what I am trying to do.....

I use a Weaver stance or modified isosceles or is that a modified Weaver...when shooting air pistols.

  OK,CO2 slow pellet exit,no kick...vs. fast bullet exit and kick...different because the way your body and brain is reacting.....so forget all the BS ...Let your mind hit the target and your body will follow...or to blow your mind think Maggot Brain,"take a stroll in your mind,you'll be surprised what you find".

  Never make something harder than it is...unless you need the little blue pill......


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 302
2019-10-09 15:28:38  
Posted by: @davidenoch

All this argument over Isosceles vs Weaver but no one is answering his question.  . . . 

David Enoch

Probably because there isn't enough information to answer.

"Target shooting" can have MANY different modes/forms/fashions.

If Droidiphile wants to simply shoot at informal 10 M matches, he may or may not be allowed to use a two handed hold. For formal 10M shooting, that would be a definite NO.

On the other hand, if his work in prison has motivated in him the desire to shoot anything like any of the "Action" styles of shooting at targets, then a two handed hold that will depend on the precise course of shooting is in order, but ¿WHICH?

-Timed shooting at bullseyes  (the bullseye turns for a timed lapse in which you take 5, or 10 shots, then turns again) can be done with the Chapman/Modified Weaver very well.

-Speed Silhouette (Olympic style, although it is no longer an Olympic sport), has to be done one handed.

-Mexican Metallic Silhouette can be shot from MANY different positions (including the Creedmoor).

-PPP (Practical Pellet Pistol) is not too different from many of the "run, shoot, hide, walk shoot, etc" games And that is shot with magazine fed pistols because the tactical reload and the reload on empty are part of the game (though it would be hard to shoot that with a single shot).

And I could cite other examples.

So, IMHO, asking what position to shoot targets in when using a CO2 pistol, is such a wide and open question that there is no possible single answer.

And it may be that we're not answering directly (though a few smart souls have answered indirectly) what you are NOT asking: 
"How different is the shooting position, when shooting a CO2 pist,ol, from the position used when shooting a firearm in the SAME competition?"

Anyway, sorry, but I just don't like beating around the bush.

 

 

 

 

 

HM


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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 52
2019-10-12 08:50:13  

I just read Mr Medina's post, and I must apologize for appearing so naive.  My intent is very simple - informal, but focused, target practice so I can learn to shoot with high accuracy.  I do not intend to compete in any form.  I shoot for the fun of it, and for active pest control.  We live uphill from a wooded creek --> all manner of critters assault my wife's bird feeders.  The creek rats are my favorite prey.  Nasty little buggers!

So after reading Mr Medina's post, I guess what I need to know is what stance I should practice to improve my ratting skills. 😀  Choosing a stance is not the whole problem, as virtually all the stances I can find info for are based upon firearms and have a heavy component of countering recoil.  Because I have seen almost no info for adapting existing stances to any airguns, I consulted this forum. This brings me full circle. 😀 

Springers may be the one exception with much available literature, probably because technique is so critical to success.  That's way too tricky for me!  PCPs are just too darn expensive for me, so I don't care about technique to shoot those, no matter how easy.  Pumps and CO2 are more my speed.  And to quote the famous line from the movie Willow, "Rats!  Rats!  Big rats!" ... yeah, my goals are simple.  And I have found success using my own modified version of isosceles.  Maybe that's good enough.

Go in peace folks!


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boscoebrea
(@boscoebrea)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 180
2019-10-12 10:33:29  

Alright then,  you want to be balanced so you can be a stable platform for your pistol.You have enough info to practice which stance does that for You.Again do not worry about what recoils and what does not.

  Actually you should get a replica of your standard issue pistol,like a paint ball pistol...for one purpose....Then a different pellet pistol for your plinking and ratting pistol.

  Like I told the lawyer,put the same question 15 different ways,I will give you the same answer.

    Remember this saying," Just Do It"...which means Practice and you will find the best stance for what you want.Looking things up it Not practice.Quit overthinking you re not an engineer.LOL

 Try a Weaver stance and be done with it....report back and tell us your findings.


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